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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 1:00:04 GMT -5
Just wanted to reenter my 2 cents from JM Part II
#61 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Considering B/S Posted on 1/1/2003 6:54:20 PM By Rusty Goode
I'm watching the New Years Day Buffy marathon and just saw the one where the Scoobies experience their worst fears. Buffy is buried alive and comes up a vampire but restrains her blood lust and still saves the day.
People have already thrown around the idea of a Slayer being turned into a vamp. Would she have the strength to not go all evil? Would she keep her soul? Would she become a super evil BB? Would she want to be staked rather than exist as a vamp? Combine that idea with speculation about the fate/future of S/B.
Possible Senarios:
Buffy is turned by the FV, she goes all BB and Spike stakes her because he knows she wouldn't want to live as a vamp.
Buffy is mortally wounded and Spike turns her to save her. She resists the bloodlust with his help. (Role reversal). At the end they ride off into the sunset to see Lurky and get her her soul back.They
Buffy is turned and Spike trades his soul to get hers back.
Buffy is turned, gets her soul back but checks into that Budhist retreat Oz went to with the residential program for werewolves and vampires who want to kick their addiction to the flesh and blood of the innocent. Spike awaits her return in Sunnydale as Dawn's watcher.
S/B: I can't really see Buffy with anybody else but Spike. They're perfectly matched. Yin and Yang. Light and dark.(Think of that white dot in the middle of the dark part of the Y/Y symbol as Spike's soul). Equal strength, etc. And they've been on a collision course since day one.What worries me is that we already know that Spike is willing to die for the Slayer.Will the Slayer discover that she's willing to die for Spike? Joss Whedon, you evil fiend! One lousy fricking century of happiness!? Is that too much to ask?
Rusty Goode
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 1:02:20 GMT -5
Miss Pamela, having read all the posts on the current ep board to date (as of last night), I'm afraid I have to agree with you. Not congenial there, somehow. Here is better.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 1:03:13 GMT -5
If you are among the blessed few, you get an edit button for a while after you post something. I know: I actually SAW one. Then it went away. Now I don't even get the little boxes to the left of the post title that expand the post. I think it's part of the website works (or doesn't, as the case may be).
So, no, you can't go back and fix the wretched typos you only see once the thing's been added to the board. Given, as I'm assuming, that you don't HAVE an edit button (if you did, why would you ask?)
Deborah, sincerely, I feel your pain. It is mine own.
Nan Dibble
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 1:05:33 GMT -5
I gather from the ep board that some individuals didn't care for this episode. Why do they therefore conclude that the series is in its dotage: that it's "jumped the shark," in popular parlance? I don't assume that the fact I didn't particularly care for a given episode means the episode is lousy, much less that the series is all but dead--why do they? 124 Rant: What's all this "jump the shark" nonsense? I gather from the ep board that some individuals didn't care for this episode. Why do they therefore conclude that the series is in its dotage: that it's "jumped the shark," in popular parlance? I don't assume that the fact I didn't particularly care for a given episode means the episode is lousy, much less that the series is all but dead--why do they?
If they had so little confidence or interest in the established Buffy writers, why are they following the series at all at this point? Don't they realize that sometimes things aren't significant until after the fact rather than immediately, and ME's record of bringing latent meanings to the fore when least expected is amazingly good for a linear (only semi-episodic) TV series? Example: Xander's lie to Buffy in Becoming, Part II, that only surfaced lately. Example: the "Thus endeth the lesson" echo of "Fool for Love" that just now has surfaced. Example: the return of the First Evil, from Amends, becoming the foundation of this whole seasonal arc. And many other examples could be cited.
How has objectivity, or at least a running try at it, fallen into such disrepute?
End of rant, for the moment. But I don't promise not to resume as needed and/or provoked.
Now please, don't let someone interpret this as a personal attack! If anything, it's an IMpersonal attack!
Nan
If they had so little confidence or interest in the established Buffy writers, why are they following the series at all at this point? Don't they realize that sometimes things aren't significant until after the fact rather than immediately, and ME's record of bringing latent meanings to the fore when least expected is amazingly good for a linear (only semi-episodic) TV series? Example: Xander's lie to Buffy in Becoming, Part II, that only surfaced lately. Example: the "Thus endeth the lesson" echo of "Fool for Love" that just now has surfaced. Example: the return of the First Evil, from Amends, becoming the foundation of this whole seasonal arc. And many other examples could be cited.
How has objectivity, or at least a running try at it, fallen into such disrepute?
End of rant, for the moment. But I don't promise not to resume as needed and/or provoked.
Now please, don't let someone interpret this as a personal attack! If anything, it's an IMpersonal attack!
Nan Dibble
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 1:07:27 GMT -5
Whew! I'm glad I found you guys. I was getting a bit worried by all the `jumping the shark` and anti-Spike comments on the episode board. I just can't understand this `no forgiveness` bent towards Spike.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 19:55:24 GMT -5
Well, apparently an unsuccessful unintended rape is the worst thing that ever happened to anybody, ever. And even if Buffy has forgiven him, proper people don't--ever.
I don't think so.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 19:57:24 GMT -5
Hello, all you smart ladies with great taste. deborah, I second your notion that it would be fun to watch an episode with this bunch.
The obsession that dare not post? Rusty, can you bring the wine and sharpen your funny bone? All we need is an episode with lots of shirtlessness (and maybe even a little bulging) I do believe we could all have a lot of fun and laughs.
Again, Rusty, you are good on noticing the details of Spike’s anatomy. Now that you mention it, and after careful scrutiny of said anatomy, I do believe he has lost 6.23 lbs. And I’m with you on letting the roots grow out on that head of hair. At the very least, I pray that we’ve seen the last of the super-slicked back hair of evil.
I am more comfy over here as well, posting just about anything related to Spike.
FYI – last weekend I had TNT on when “House on Haunted Hill” came on. James’ name was in the opening credits, so I foolishly thought he might have a decent sized part. I liked watching the few minutes he was on, but what a disappointment. The part was so small, I would expect him to be in the closing credits only. I suppose the producers were trying to exploit the fact that the guy has a fan base, and he might drawn in some extra folks. What a mean trick. I’m glad I didn’t pay to see it.
Edited By Spring Summers at 1/9/2003 8:07:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 19:58:24 GMT -5
"Nah - I'm more comfortable here. Oh, I have posted some thoughts at the ep board regarding "Showtime", but it's STILL, as you vividly recall, not the Spike-friendliest place over there.
One guy, though entitled to his opinion, sorta got me with his "I don't see what was so great about the last scene - how can anyone feel good about Spike as he should never be forgiven for the (Miss Pamela: "GRR!ARRRGHH!" A/R." *sigh* They just won't drop it..."
I agree... it's nice to come to a Spike friendly place, even though I like the episode board. I'm sure I'd watch the show without Spike and even post messages about it, but I wouldn't obsess the way I do... And it does seem like Spike obsession really bothers people. I mean, if Willow were the main reason someone liked the show, it wouldn't bother me. Or anybody, really.
I also agree about getting upset that the A/R is still supposed to be this one unforgivable thing he did. Especially since other characters have done the same thing, without it really being dwelled on at all. Think of when Faith almost raped Xander (at least sexually assaulted him, if raping were considered impossible for women to carry out) but then changed it to strangling him. Hardly better, in my opinion. And Xander was pretty much helpless against her and she knew it. Not to mention, Xander had never said no to Faith when he meant yes, and he had never beaten her to a pulp and left her in an alley somewhere. Also, she might never have stopped if Angel hadn't physically dragged her away, which Spike did, even if it took being pushed across the room by Buffy first. But no one brings that up now when Faith's redemption is brought up... not the characters, or the audience.
Not that it necessarily should. I mean, in lots of books and movies there are situations where very similiar things like the Spike/Buffy scene happened and it isn't presented as the the defining line in the story. Has anyone here read "I Know This Much is True."? There's a scene where the protagonist forces sex on his girlfriend when really awful things are going on in his life, and is really sorry instantly afterwords. And she actually forgives him for it not very long afterwards. Reading the book, you get the sense that he's done something bad, and not excusable, but I don't feel like the author wanted the reader to, at that point in the story, lose all sympathy for the character, and at every point in his journey refer back to that moment, and say, "I don't care how much he suffered, it still doesn't matter, because of what he did."
Okay, I feel like my point got lost somewhere along the way and I'm neglecting too much work to go back and find it... but anyway, yay to this posting thread! Spike lovers of the world unite!
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 19:59:51 GMT -5
I agree... one so-so episode (if that's how you feel about this one)does not the end of a series make!
Myself, I wouldn't call Showtime my favorite by any stretch, but, that last scene was just so sweet that I love the whole episode for it.
Although I actually think ScoopMe is pretty good about having actual fans of the show posting. Other boards I've lurked at are practically nothing but "shark jump this, shark jump that, this used to be a good show but now I'm throwing up"... Why bother to watch and post if you don't get any enjoyment? Of course the show can't be exactly what it was in Season Two...
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 20:24:53 GMT -5
As long as the shirtlessness applies only to Spike (cz I've got the the bulging covered), I'll happily bring a case of Napa Valley grape to the party.
Redemption: Could Spike possible do any more penance for the AR? Kicked to a pulp in Morphy's cave, (One Scarab up the nose would have done it for me. Uggh!),bleeding, madness, torture, mocking and general rudeness by the FE and FV? Not enough? An actual rapist would be out of jail by now. Buffy has silently accepted her percentage of responsibility in that whole mess, and they both understand what happened. Lets move on.
I also saw House on HH. It was a real disappointment, but JM has really evolved in the tv/film medium since then. I can't belive he hasn't gotten a sigificant movie part yet. I really loved Northern Exposure but only vaguely remember his bit as the preacher.The fact that the boyfriend had been killed by, and merged with a satallite (cannot spell this word!)kind of over-shadowed the part. I remember he seemed very young and nervous. Do you remember the Bob Segar, Last Supper episode? Brilliant! Of course I was born in Detroit....
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 20:30:29 GMT -5
I totally agree ith all the sentiments expressed by last few posters, Julie, Spring, Nan and Claire.
I have discovered a fondness for previous episodes that i had earlier disdained b/c of their later relevance to and enhancement of character quirks and intertextual references.
I did not even like (shudder, gasp) the episode Fool for love initially b/c it made Spike look so idiotic. That has become one of my favorites. Even Beer Bad and Doublemeat Palace (for all their flws) have some endearing moments.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 20:32:00 GMT -5
132 Re: #129 1/9/2003 Nan Dibble Well, *I'm* not what I was in season 2. I forgive me for it and parts of me are still excellent! So there.
Wary note: joke intended.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 20:33:15 GMT -5
Ellie, I've had a similar experience often enough that I'm a bit suspicious of my first snap reactions. It's happened to me with my other favorite series, Beauty and the Beast--an early episode , No Way Down, seemed initially predictable and boring. But when I'd come to appreciate the context more, it became fascinating. Likewise another, Nor Iron Bars a Cage. I found it trite. Then through a broadened context, it became a favorite.
Having only heard of Buffy, I idly watched an episode I now identify as Becoming, Part I. I now judge the two Becomings to be among the strongest episodes in the series. But I remember watching Dru babble on and Spike run up and down, the cheap (it seemed to me) sets and the incomprehensible storyline (having watched no other episode but that) and couldn't imagine what anybody could see in something like that. I thought Forever Knight (which I was following with some interest--I've always been a vampire mythos fan) much superior. And BTW, when it comes to killing off your protagonist, nobody has done it more thoroughly than Forever Knight, as discussed elsewhere.... Anyway, when FX began rerunning the series from the beginning, it was at a convenient hour, so I watched a few. Then a few more. At 2 a night, there was lots of continuity and context, lots of forward dynamic.
I was, of course, hooked from then on out and joined season 6 live, from the beginning.
I expect, in part, that's why I get so exasperated with folk who seem to have a snap reaction and nothing else--people who don't hang around and absorb the context. They're missing so much! As I initially do, as often as not, with any series that has depths not apparent on a first, casual viewing.
I've made myself a rule: First impressions are often wrong. Second impressions have more validity. Which doesn't mean you don't enjoy a thing--it just includes the mulling over and identifying context as an important part of the enjoyment.
And, if one is lucky, talking it over and sharing insights about it with friends.
(Imagine head duck and shy wave): Hi, friends.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 20:36:22 GMT -5
Unlike alot of fans, I loved season 6. And it was more than great sex and tap dancing demons. Not counting the obvious Tabula Rasa and OMWF, Season 6 had many profound, moving and funny moments. Among them:
Spike's face as he realizes that it's Buffy on the stairs. Not the bot.
The awe, wonder and tenderness when he tells her how many days she's been *dead*.
Their monologues to each other. Him saving her every night, she admitting that she's been ripped out of heaven.
The Mummy Hand,Kitten poker, and that head thing Spike did after drunken Buffy tells him how she's blow all her attempts at employment, he hasn't helped her,and furthermore he's drunk!
Spuffy in Smashed/Wrecked.
Buffy, sitting on her bed after first sex with Spike, hair in braids and with such morning-after conflict that she's hung garlic everywhere to protect her from...herself.
Spike: Do you even like me?
Buffy being drawn toward Spike's crypt like a magnet. Spike's being totally aware Buffy is outside his door.(This scene sums up the almost psychic intensity of their mutual obsession).
You only hurt the one you love.
Spike arrogantly flashing Riley after being found naked with Buffy.
Evil Willow. (Altho still second to Vamp Willow).
The return of Giles!!!
And more, but I'm too tired to think of examples.
Rusty Goode
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Post by Dalton on Jun 21, 2003 20:37:44 GMT -5
that is paart of the grandness of this board- checking and finding such insightful responses to one's musings-
thank you Rusty and Nan for reminding me of some of my favorite moments on t.v. i loved Forever Knight and never saw the last episode ( i forget just why) so it was with bittersweet pleasure that I read exactly what had transpired. My son years ago ( indeference , no doubt to my feelings, misled me into thinking that Knight had changed Nath over!).
I am one of those who think the ending of Freinds was good- preserve the angst I say ( although i am not so sure with Spike and Buffy).
One of my favorite moments on Buffy occurred when Giles and Xander encountered chipped Spike and described Faith in great detail to him only to have him announce that he would reveal them to her and watch her kill them as none of the Scoobies could remember that "I hate you all!". the look on all three actor's faces was priceless.
I cannot believe that when a good freind initially told me about how good the new show buffy was I laughed in derisive amazement ( spoiled by that awful movie).
Now my friends at work gently indulge my "thing" for Buffy. Today a sweet colleague(sp?) actually gave me a buffy calendar. Not really my thing ( I will send it to my son for whom it will be a real treat) but I was touched b/c as she said it just jumped out at her from her place on line at Barnes and Noble's.
ellie jason
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