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Post by Rob on Apr 1, 2005 0:53:12 GMT -5
Go read Rob's review! It puts a wonderfully positive spin on the episode and makes some nice points. Good stuff Thank you for the nice compliment. My feelings sometimes change about episodes as time goes on...but to me this was a Wallace-love ep at its core, so I chose to focus on that. Dwelling on her mother's apparent lack of concern over her daughter's potentially incestuous relationship seemed like too hard a nut to crack. I cannot imagine Veronica forgetting to touch on that, regardless of her mother's state of mind. Maybe she decided it would be counterproductive to argue excessively. That would make some sense, I suppose. Seems to me it could've easily been handled through narration, which makes me wonder if that connection was even made. Despite its overall quality, VM has been known to leave little holes in the logic on occasion...and not all of the holes are left intentionally. This may have just been one of them. That aside, it was one of my favorite episodes of the year, so rather than leave a negative impression on the official review, I figured I'd mention it here instead. I already went a little negative on the date-rape storyline anyway. I know you didn't ask me any of these questions, by the way. Just thinking out loud, is all.
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Post by Rob on Apr 1, 2005 0:57:12 GMT -5
Rob: I like your “Duncan by the pool with a seizure” theory, but my alternative theory is “the Colonel in the Library with some mustard.” Or something like that. Wallace-adjacent: Yes, the phrase does bring The Zeppo to mind right away – to obsessed nutcases like you and me. But objectively speaking (I say this reluctantly), it does seem a stretch to consider the wording as a deliberate reference. Much love to you too, Rob! Wait a second. Obsessed? That seems harsh. Nutcase, I can live with. There's documentation to back that up, but obsessed...
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Post by leftylady on Apr 1, 2005 17:58:09 GMT -5
Ok, I've loved everyone's comments. Have been too tied up to add any comment til now.
Liked Sunworshipper's parallels. Interesting. Hadn't thought of that before. That raises a question: is there a parallel for Lianne with Veronica's date rape? Could something like that be behind her vague answers to Veronica's question about her paternity? [or at least waking from a drinking spree with doubts on her mind about the night before?] I'm in the camp that there might be a mislead in this and there might turn out to be a third possibility. Hmm.....read further for my really off the wall thoughts.
Any ideas about Abel's daughter? Very unique name which I did not catch. Strange that this would come up now. One would think that during the trial a daughter would have been mentioned in the news coverage and Veronica would not be surprised at the mention of a daughter. Unless of course she's a "long lost" daughter. But then, how would he get the money to her? Now here's my crazy idea of the week: wouldn't it be a blockbuster to find after all this wondering if Jake is her dad to have Veronica find out it's Abel instead! It would be just that kind of twist we would not be expecting, especially so close to the end of the season. Everyone feel free to tear this one apart. I like to "devil's advocate". I set 'em up; you knock 'em down. As long as it's done with logic, no offense taken.
Spring, great tour through your brain. Lots of interesting items to sift through. Never know what you'll find when it's time for mental spring cleaning! Specially liked the "parroting" image, everyone in Neptune parroting what they know .. about Veronica, about Lily's murder. Liked how it dovetailed into Sunworshipper's generational mirroring.
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Post by Pixi on Apr 2, 2005 4:23:56 GMT -5
Ok, I've loved everyone's comments. Have been too tied up to add any comment til now. Liked Sunworshipper's parallels. Interesting. Hadn't thought of that before. That raises a question: is there a parallel for Lianne with Veronica's date rape? Could something like that be behind her vague answers to Veronica's question about her paternity? [or at least waking from a drinking spree with doubts on her mind about the night before?] I'm in the camp that there might be a mislead in this and there might turn out to be a third possibility. Hmm.....read further for my really off the wall thoughts. Any ideas about Abel's daughter? Very unique name which I did not catch. Strange that this would come up now. One would think that during the trial a daughter would have been mentioned in the news coverage and Veronica would not be surprised at the mention of a daughter. Unless of course she's a "long lost" daughter. But then, how would he get the money to her? Now here's my crazy idea of the week: wouldn't it be a blockbuster to find after all this wondering if Jake is her dad to have Veronica find out it's Abel instead! It would be just that kind of twist we would not be expecting, especially so close to the end of the season. Everyone feel free to tear this one apart. I like to "devil's advocate". I set 'em up; you knock 'em down. As long as it's done with logic, no offense taken. Spring, great tour through your brain. Lots of interesting items to sift through. Never know what you'll find when it's time for mental spring cleaning! Specially liked the "parroting" image, everyone in Neptune parroting what they know .. about Veronica, about Lily's murder. Liked how it dovetailed into Sunworshipper's generational mirroring. Interesting comment that there might be a parellel between Veronica's rape and Lianne. That had never crossed my mind. This rape has to jump back into the forefront somehow. I agree with Bluesman that such an important plot point, which has been completely ignored and put on the back burner, must have some significance. Either way - with only 6 episodes left this year - and Veronica has been kind of happy lately, I'm guessing there is a lot of angst for her up ahead. Bluesman - I started to read your speculations as to who was the murderer and had to stop because - knowing how good you are at analysis - I was afraid you would be right and I would lose the spontaneity of surprise. I look forward to reading it afterwards and seeing how you did.
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Post by William the Bloody on Apr 2, 2005 10:51:32 GMT -5
I loved the way she said "Riverdale" and just watched them. Seeing if any of them would get it. That's our V - she loves living on the edge! Does she enjoy living on the edge? She literally "planted" a bug, for Pete's sake! Vlad
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Post by William the Bloody on Apr 2, 2005 11:05:32 GMT -5
Hey Lola - I liked all the Wallace stuff too although - isn't he a little short to be a big basketball star? <snip> Not if he is playing a combination "scoring"/"point" guard position... even in the NBA they only need to be about 6 foot or a little over. They make up for height with speed and shooting skills. While typically in the pro's you have your "scoring" guards and your "point" guards as two seperate entities, in highschool it is less differentiated. If a player is really good at logisitics, assists and shooting he can really elevate a mediocre team. Which is what is repeatedly referred to about Wallace in this last episode. The small guard becomes a threat so that not only do you have to put your best small man on him because he is so fast and deadly from a distance (which you might not even have....Fast, small defensive players are in the minority) but you have to back up that defense by double teaming the player which leaves another scoring big man open for easy inside layups and dunks. Yep, it's basketball season. ;D Vlad
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Post by William the Bloody on Apr 2, 2005 11:30:56 GMT -5
That's what I said, too! Lianne had carried around that secret for years and it didn't waste her - I can't buy that she has gone so totally around the bend just over the thought that Veronica might find out that Jake Kane might 'possibly' be her father - unless she's worried about her finding out that it's neither Jake or Keith. I too wondered at the moment of hte non-reveal "Oh my God! It isn't either of them... it's someone else! And Keith suspects Jake, when actually Jake's not 'daddy' but is an affair." I am not liking Lianne in the least little bit and I think the best thing for both Keith and Veronica is that she dissappeared. It's a shame she came back. And my bet is: rehab doesn't work and the fact that Veronica gave up all her money will be fodder for why she takes on more cases next year and possibly never leaves Neptune in the season after that. She can't afford it. Longterm series dilemna solved. Perhaps she can enroll in the convenient nearby University of California-Neptune... and I hear they are looking for a kick-ass basketball player too. Logan has to go there on probation because of his failing grades due to angst over mom's disappearance/death and his dad's asshatness and hte fact he cut him off completely. I wonder if they have a Wicca group. Vlad
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 2, 2005 17:05:53 GMT -5
I can't go away for a day, without the wild theories proliferating:
Here's the way it is:
[/li][li]Veronica is either Keith's daughter, or Jake's daughter. Lianne isn't sure which one, but she is sure it is one of the two. Well - you know, unless I'm wrong, but what are the odds of that? (PLEASE NOTE: This is a rhetorical question. No reply needed. Vlad, Karen, Rob, leftylady, and an all inclusive "etc", this means you.)
[/li][li]Where is this idea that Lianne was NOT concerned about Duncan and Veronica dating coming from? She obviously was concerned about it, we saw it on her face when we saw that flashback of Veronica telling her about it. All we saw in this ep was that Lianne didn't want Celeste telling Veronica that she and Jake were having an affair - which she suspected Celeste was going to do, in order to try to break up D & V. I don't understand how that translates into: "Lianne didn't mind D & V dating." Sure she did. She just didn't want Celeste taking that tactic.
That said, I agree that Lianne, so far, is not winning many points as a likeable or sympathetic character. I give her benefit of the doubt though, because Veronica misses her so much and loves her so. It suggests that there have been some good times between them.
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Post by Rob on Apr 2, 2005 19:29:48 GMT -5
[/li][li]Where is this idea that Lianne was NOT concerned about Duncan and Veronica dating coming from? She obviously was concerned about it, we saw it on her face when we saw that flashback of Veronica telling her about it. All we saw in this ep was that Lianne didn't want Celeste telling Veronica that she and Jake were having an affair - which she suspected Celeste was going to do, in order to try to break up D & V. I don't understand how that translates into: "Lianne didn't mind D & V dating." Sure she did. She just didn't want Celeste taking that tactic. [/quote] I don't think a concerned look on Lianne's face in a flashback is going to cut it for me. If she even had an inkling that Duncan and Veronica are siblings - and she had way more than that - then she needed to DO or SAY something. Of course, I realize it's not as easy as I make it sound. Voicing her specific concerns would've created a disastrous situation within the Mars family. On the other hand, given the circumstances that was pretty much inevitable, wasn't it? Plus, when one weighs those consequences against the potential future disaster for her daughter, I'd say any hesitation should be thrown out the window. It would be one of those awful - but absolutely necessary - things. Veronica was going to suffer a good deal of heartache from this situation one way or the other. As it turned out, she had to learn of it on her own. Even worse, she had to first hear it spoken of by Abel Koontz. I'd say that made things even more devastating, no?
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 2, 2005 21:34:06 GMT -5
I don't think a concerned look on Lianne's face in a flashback is going to cut it for me. If she even had an inkling that Duncan and Veronica are siblings - and she had way more than that - then she needed to DO or SAY something. Of course, I realize it's not as easy as I make it sound. Voicing her specific concerns would've created a disastrous situation within the Mars family. On the other hand, given the circumstances that was pretty much inevitable, wasn't it? Plus, when one weighs those consequences against the potential future disaster for her daughter, I'd say any hesitation should be thrown out the window. It would be one of those awful - but absolutely necessary - things. Veronica was going to suffer a good deal of heartache from this situation one way or the other. As it turned out, she had to learn of it on her own. Even worse, she had to first hear it spoken of by Abel Koontz. I'd say that made things even more devastating, no? Oh, yes, yes. Good points. I agree that Lianne made bad choices here; she should have told Veronica straight off. I think she was scared and ashamed, and didn't have the strength of character to tell her daughter the secret, for whatever reason. Just saying I don't buy the idea that she had little or no concerns about it - she seemed distressed about it, but unable to find the courage to deal with it. She had not worked up the courage or character or - whatever you wanna call it - to do it. I didn't think her . . . desire to keep Celeste from interfering with V&D, by telling Veronica (the lie?) that she and Jake were having an affair, means that she didn't mind V&D dating. I may have been misreading, but it seemed to me that this is what was being suggested.
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Post by Rob on Apr 2, 2005 22:00:32 GMT -5
Just saying I don't buy the idea that she had little or no concerns about it - she seemed distressed about it, but unable to find the courage to deal with it. She had not worked up the courage or character or - whatever you wanna call it - to do it. I can live with that. Also, if her problems with alcohol have existed for a while (I must confess I don't recall if this has been mentioned), concealment and avoidance of issues were what Lianne would be all about.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 4, 2005 13:56:23 GMT -5
Damn, dude, that was some mighty fine reviewin'! You really bring your own style to it, a lot of humor, and sass. (Not that I am in any way comparing you to Flo from Mel's Diner, although it sounds that way).
Just wanted to float some props your way...and to say I think you're right about the date rape issue. The emphasis on her lack of trust is a subtle sort of shout-out, but not enough for something of that magnitude...
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Post by Lola m on Apr 6, 2005 16:39:04 GMT -5
Rob – great review!
You got right to the heart of the episode – the interaction between Wallace and Veronica! As you said, the episodes are never really just about the case of the week. The case (while interesting and twisty in its own right) is there to help us see more about Veronica and her world and (usually) to give us a hint about the larger issues – such as Lily’s murder. I loved how you tied this to Rob Thomas’ love of the art of misdirection. We are misdirected about Veronica’s reaction. Wallace is becoming part of a “popular” group, and we are fooled at first into thinking that V can’t handle this, while in reality she is supportive. “Proud and happy”, as you put it.
I would totally agree with you that Wallace has been a big part of Veronica reaching out more, becoming less brittle and isolated. Remaining friends through the ups and downs, calling her on behavior when it goes over the line, respecting her detective work by bringing her clients, standing up for her and her father to his mom – Wallace is more than just the guy she helped out of that duct tape. You put it very nicely when you said he is personifying her ability to trust and have faith. Something that would likely have been impossible for the Veronica we saw at the start of the season.
Regarding some of your midnight tokin’ random thoughts: our “rest stop 15” was Peck’s Woods; I am even more conflicted about Duncan by the pool with a seizure now than when I first watched the ep; Celeste by the pool with a lead pipe, no, pool boy, um, poolside implement would be my preference, ‘cuz I like Celeste less than Duncan; it was good to see that Keith was more in the know and then to have him work with Veronica in the next ep; yeppers on the “trash talk” but I don’t even want to know about the disembodied heart in the front row; I got a “Zeppo” vibe too but also think it was not necessarily a deliberate reference; the date rape is gonna have to be addressed this season.
Whew! Again – bravo, Sir Rob – we all love you too.
Lola
Oh, and your PSA? Classic!
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Post by Karen on Apr 7, 2005 18:13:09 GMT -5
Rob - so do you play your music in the sun? Loved your memory-lane basketballs story. Wallace was enjoying a bit of showing-off during that first scene. His joy in the game was evident, and I'm sure his popularity grated on his teammate who was the one who tried to take him down. Is jealousy and envy shown in this episode a clue to why Lilly was murdered? Hmm. Your review has made me think of the ep in a different way. Competition (between the schools) was a factor, too. As to who murdered Lilly - I have no clue. Really. My head spins from all the possibilities. I'm hoping that Wallace become an even bigger part of 'Veronica Mars'. I feel more connected to the story with him in it - he rounds it out in an important way like you said here: I think that faith is personified in Wallace. In an incredibly complex and emotional wold, he remains the one and only uncomplicated presence. EETAH! And Yay Wallace. Much love you, too.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 8, 2005 16:27:02 GMT -5
Rob - so do you play your music in the sun? Loved your memory-lane basketballs story. Wallace was enjoying a bit of showing-off during that first scene. His joy in the game was evident, and I'm sure his popularity grated on his teammate who was the one who tried to take him down. Is jealousy and envy shown in this episode a clue to why Lilly was murdered? Hmm. Your review has made me think of the ep in a different way. Competition (between the schools) was a factor, too. As to who murdered Lilly - I have no clue. Really. My head spins from all the possibilities. I'm hoping that Wallace become an even bigger part of 'Veronica Mars'. I feel more connected to the story with him in it - he rounds it out in an important way like you said here: I think that faith is personified in Wallace. In an incredibly complex and emotional wold, he remains the one and only uncomplicated presence. EETAH! And Yay Wallace. Much love you, too. Now you've got me wondering if jealousy and/or competition played a part in Lily's murder as well. Hmmmmmm. I'm going to make a guess in the VM game, but it's gonna be pure speculation on my part! I've got too many ideas of who it could be to really feel confident that I'm guessing correctly. But it's fun to try. ;D
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