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Post by Sue on May 18, 2005 13:42:36 GMT -5
Hey, excellent review, Sue! Sheriff Lamb was one who ratted out Veronica to Logan. Leo wasn't even in this episode. I'm sure if I saw them side by side they don't look anything alike. But with the dark hair and uniform I get easily confused. I actually asked my husband about this and for some reason he thought Lamb was sporting facial hair, so I went with Leo. Well, that's good then, cause I always thought Leo was a nice guy (although clearly a peripheral character) and re-enforces what a creep Lamb is. See--I don't use a beta, but I may have to recruit you for the job...... Of course, I meant, then he wouldn't have had the play on Cassidy's nickname. Also---I haven't read the discussion thread really much at all, especially the early pages. I think I briefly saw there was some discussion of the episode title. Not being an English major I tend to not look very deeply below the surface for symbolism so I went with the obvious. And I believe I did see a post by someone---possibly you?---who also took it at face value. A little, very little. And she switched gears pretty quickly. Besides, it was her entire pattern of behavior all season, toward both kids, which makes me see her as extremely cold and calculating. Jake---yes, also nasty occasionally, but in much more heat of the moment, passionate style. Witness the threats to Aaron. Question: So, who do you think actually engineered the Abel Koontz thing? Clarence? And who enlisted Clarence? Jake? As far as telling Clarence to take photos of Veronica and send them to Lianne------that had Celeste written all over it. And, if I may say so: very Spike-like. Even knowing to some degree what was going to happen (Aaron in the back seat) it was still quite effectively executed. My 23 year old daughter wouldn't even watch---she fast forwarded thru the entire scene in the freezer, the fight, the fire. both. Well, um, we'll be here all summer....no new reviews, but if reruns start I'm sure we'll find something to discuss. And Spring has mentioned the possibility of doing a whole season review. I've also considered at least running through all the episodes and listing major or recurring themes as well as looking for possible foreshadowing. [Altho Spring is far more likely to follow through than I am.] You and any other posters are of course well to explore anything related to the series through analyses and essays. We can either post them on the Misc. VM thread or possibly see if Vlad can put them on the website---there is a section for various essays written by S'cubies. Although, to date, I believe they are all Jossverse related.
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Post by Sharky on May 18, 2005 14:22:25 GMT -5
Veronica thought she had convinced herself that it didn't matter. In fact, she signed away any claim on the Kanes without a second's thought, but it clearly did matter: her joy, relief and boundless love for Keith was palpable and heart-stopping.This dynamic is my favorite on the show. I’ve almost stopped expecting Keith to suddenly turn into a tentacled alien octopus thingy.I liked the Jake we saw in Return of the Kane, where he tells Duncan, "Your happiness is all I've ever wanted."His impassioned threats to Aaron upon learning the truth showed a depth of feeling for Lily that surprised me. So much of what Jake had done seemed geared toward protecting the Kane name, rather than the family members. It was good to see the enraged father.Indeed Logan has been beset by adversity, but I'd say the references to heaven polishing him as a jewel are clearly ironic.I’m no jeweler, but I suspect the polishing not only brings out the beauty of the jewel but also makes the flaws visible. My friend Pixi likes the Logan / Veronica dynamic, and I see the sparks. But Logan’s scars run deep. Abuse breeds abuse, and he (and I, I’ll admit) delighted in Aaron’s violent outbreak against Trina’s boyfriend.Aaron Echolls is a construct---an image. Or, he was. Aaron's primary identity was: "Aaron Echolls, Leading Man."So, the primary themes of the main fathers are:
- Mars – Protect the family.
- Kane – Protect the name.
- Echolls – Protect the image.
Nice the way those all line up in decreasing order of what should be important.I do believe that the show will continue to be all about Veronica. I certainly hope so. I hope we get to see a lot of her life and loves over the next few years.
I enjoyed this thematic review very much. I appreciate your avoiding the temptation to do more of a synopsis, as there are other sites for those. Your insights were excellent. #claps#
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Post by sunworshipper on May 18, 2005 14:30:50 GMT -5
Also---I haven't read the discussion thread really much at all, especially the early pages. I think I briefly saw there was some discussion of the episode title. Not being an English major I tend to not look very deeply below the surface for symbolism so I went with the obvious. And I believe I did see a post by someone---possibly you?---who also took it at face value. I took the title to be mainly ironic (as you said: there are no Cleaver families in Neptune) and also a small word-play joke. I don't see Celeste as being dominant in that relationship. I saw Jake looking being a bit scared of her reaction only once -- in the restaurant scene where V and Leo ran into Meg and the Kanes. I think they're both strong-willed individuals who worked together to cover for their son. Except for Jake's affair with Lianne and the resulting hatred of Celeste for the Mars's, I haven't seen the two as having separate agendas. Celeste may be colder but Jake has the ultimate power in their marriage: money, political clout, prestige. True. I try to avoid the Buffy-VM comparisons as they quickly go overboard but the Logan character does remind me of Spike. But I suspect most here can address that better than I.
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Post by sunworshipper on May 18, 2005 14:56:03 GMT -5
So, the primary themes of the main fathers are:
- Mars – Protect the family.
- Kane – Protect the name.
- Echolls – Protect the image.
Or by levels of us vs. them: - Keith - Everyone matters
- Jake - Only family matters
- Aaron - Only I matter
or by motivation: - Mars family - Do the right thing, no matter the personal cost. (Superego?)
- Kanes family - Do the smart thing. (Ego?)
- Echolls family - Follow your impulses. (Id?)
I like that last grouping as it applies to most members of each family (except Lianne Mars).
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Post by Sharky on May 18, 2005 15:22:24 GMT -5
So, the primary themes of the main fathers are:
- Mars – Protect the family.
- Kane – Protect the name.
- Echolls – Protect the image.
Or by levels of us vs. them: - Keith - Everyone matters
- Jake - Only family matters
- Aaron - Only I matter
or by motivation: - Mars family - Do the right thing, no matter the personal cost. (Superego?)
- Kanes family - Do the smart thing. (Ego?)
- Echolls family - Follow your impulses. (Id?)
I like that last grouping as it applies to most members of each family (except Lianne Mars). Very nice. I'd change the Echolls family to "Do the gratifying thing" just for the alliteration.
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Post by Lola m on May 18, 2005 21:30:21 GMT -5
Great "final" review, Sue!! I loved reading your thoughts on the purpose of these reviews - and I very much agree. Loved the idea of "three families". We really saw them all contrasted and compared in this ep. We've seen that all season long, but it all came to a head here. And you got to the heart of each one perfectly. Keith and Veronica as one unit. You described it perfectly when you said: In some ways, I find this scene even more telling, more heroic, than Keith leaping through the flames to get to Veronica. You described perfectly my reasons to dislike Celeste. Her devotion to the surface - to the way things "look" - over and above any real needs or problems that may be right in front of her. That just . . . pushes some very wrong buttons with me. And your description of Lilly and how seriously out of control she was? So true! And then the Echolls. Mercy. I mean, we knew they were messed up . . . but dude! Such badness. Your description of Aaron mirrors that of Celeste. She concentrates on the surface while she removes herself emotionally. Aaron uses his surface as a mask to project whatever needs to be seen at the moment. There is no Echolls family left. Logan is in the place that Veronica was at the start of the season. It is so amazing to me how we've seen these characters change and grow and reveal themselves. Who would have ever guessed from the premier episode that we'd end up where we are now!? I also am very satisfied with the resolution of Lilly's murder. The bit and pieces all fit in the end and I will really enjoy watching this in re-run, seeing it all come together now that I know what the final result looks like. Your speculations for the future were wonderful to read and make me want the new season now!!! ;D Brava, Sue! Brava!! These "dueling reviews" by you and Spring have made this season so much more enjoyable. And I am sooooo happy you suggested this show!! I might not have been watching from the beginning if not for you. And that would have been a great shame. Thank you. Lola
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Post by Lola m on May 18, 2005 21:34:23 GMT -5
Veronica thought she had convinced herself that it didn't matter. In fact, she signed away any claim on the Kanes without a second's thought, but it clearly did matter: her joy, relief and boundless love for Keith was palpable and heart-stopping.This dynamic is my favorite on the show. I’ve almost stopped expecting Keith to suddenly turn into a tentacled alien octopus thingy.I liked the Jake we saw in Return of the Kane, where he tells Duncan, "Your happiness is all I've ever wanted."His impassioned threats to Aaron upon learning the truth showed a depth of feeling for Lily that surprised me. So much of what Jake had done seemed geared toward protecting the Kane name, rather than the family members. It was good to see the enraged father.Indeed Logan has been beset by adversity, but I'd say the references to heaven polishing him as a jewel are clearly ironic.I’m no jeweler, but I suspect the polishing not only brings out the beauty of the jewel but also makes the flaws visible. My friend Pixi likes the Logan / Veronica dynamic, and I see the sparks. But Logan’s scars run deep. Abuse breeds abuse, and he (and I, I’ll admit) delighted in Aaron’s violent outbreak against Trina’s boyfriend.Aaron Echolls is a construct---an image. Or, he was. Aaron's primary identity was: "Aaron Echolls, Leading Man."So, the primary themes of the main fathers are:
- Mars – Protect the family.
- Kane – Protect the name.
- Echolls – Protect the image.
Nice the way those all line up in decreasing order of what should be important.I do believe that the show will continue to be all about Veronica. I certainly hope so. I hope we get to see a lot of her life and loves over the next few years.
I enjoyed this thematic review very much. I appreciate your avoiding the temptation to do more of a synopsis, as there are other sites for those. Your insights were excellent. I love your summary of the main themes of the fathers. Very true.
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Post by Lola m on May 18, 2005 21:37:41 GMT -5
So, the primary themes of the main fathers are:
- Mars – Protect the family.
- Kane – Protect the name.
- Echolls – Protect the image.
Or by levels of us vs. them: - Keith - Everyone matters
- Jake - Only family matters
- Aaron - Only I matter
or by motivation: - Mars family - Do the right thing, no matter the personal cost. (Superego?)
- Kanes family - Do the smart thing. (Ego?)
- Echolls family - Follow your impulses. (Id?)
I like that last grouping as it applies to most members of each family (except Lianne Mars). Exellent! Almost like the stages of understanding that a child has as they grow. First, do only what you want, not really understanding that other people matter/exist. Then, follow the rule as laid out by others - obey your parents, etc. Then, understand yourself why you need to do what is right.
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Post by leftylady on May 20, 2005 17:00:36 GMT -5
Hey, excellent review, Sue! Sheriff Lamb was one who ratted out Veronica to Logan. Leo wasn't even in this episode.I'm sure if I saw them side by side they don't look anything alike. But with the dark hair and uniform I get easily confused. I actually asked my husband about this and for some reason he thought Lamb was sporting facial hair, so I went with Leo. Well, that's good then, cause I always thought Leo was a nice guy (although clearly a peripheral character) and re-enforces what a creep Lamb is. Don't feel bad. It thought it was Leo too on my first time through the tape. The dark hair and even the voice inflections fooled me. The Xmas episode pretty much told us that Jake knew nothing about the photos. Celeste is in the thick of the coverup. We've been thinking that Logan will be alone with Daddy in jail and Mom allegedly dead, but Duncan too may be alone if Jake is prosecuted for obstruction of justice for the coverup, Celeste may go down with him. Yes, many thanks to you and Spring. Great reviews all the way through the year. Want to add that i really loved this review. The non-Cleavers, so very clever. A season review. Yes, please. That would give us all something to mull over until we have new episodes .. and an answer to the visitor at the door and what's to become of Logan. Logan may not exactly be shining - yet. But he has been a work in progress - just think of the difference in our perception of him now from the beginning of the season. Let's say he's still rough around the edges. But I can see the potential in him, and so can Veronica. p.s. I think you mention Trina as Logan's step sister. I thought they were half siblings, both offspring of Aaron and different wives.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 20, 2005 18:08:08 GMT -5
Nice way to set it up with the “three families.” I join you in the love of the Keith/Veronica scene. Keith is not a perfect dad, but he really really loves Veronica, and she really, really loves him, and it shows. I don’t agree with the wicked-witch-of-the-west perception of Celeste. Lianne is, indeed, a troublemaker, Lianne did have an affair with Celeste’s husband, and Celeste thought Veronica might be Jake’s daughter. It’s not like she’s totally without good reason for wanting Duncan to just stay away from that family, and for wanting to run Lianne out-of-town. In fact, she did everyone a favor, there. Just because she doesn’t show emotions ala Jake doesn’t mean she doesn’t have them. And clashing with a rebellious teenage daughter is nothing that should earn a mom a wicked-witch moniker. Jake & Lianne are much more the villains in the whole scenario, to me. I can’t imagine anyone turning to Lianne for comfort, and getting it. She’s enormously self-centered. Celeste bears no blame for their affair. When Jake tells Duncan his happiness is all he wants, he doesn’t forget to add some things about HIS expectations of what his son should be. He just didn’t convince me that Duncan’s happiness was his first priority. He’s every bit as concerned about appearances as Celeste. Loved this: When rejected or disappointed he withdraws into himself, or worse, into alcohol and/or drugs. It's unclear whether he is actively suicidal on the bridge or just past caring what happens to him. "Adversity is the diamond dust with which heaven polishes its jewels." Indeed Logan has been beset by adversity, but I'd say the references to heaven polishing him as a jewel are clearly ironic. Though I would add that yes, Logan’s intentions are to be ironic, but I think the writer is also suggesting that Logan is a diamond in the rough, and that ultimately, he’ll triumph over his adversity and make his way to diamondhood. Also, loved this: Rob has clearly declared himself sovereign of the Marsverse. Yep! And I join you in weeping over the ratings. And now, they are putting it against Lost! We better start saying our prayers now, for a season 3. Logan, living with Duncan? I would say: Over Jake’s dead body. No way he’s going to allow Aaron’s son to live with him. I loved your understated but perfect blessings to Patti, and I appreciate you thanking me for my efforts this year. You’ve been a great partner in crime, and I look forward to more of the same next year!!
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Post by Karen on May 21, 2005 9:55:53 GMT -5
I loved your review, Sue!
No, the Cleavers don't live in Neptune. Leave it to Beaver was a fifties sit-com about the quintessential American family during the "Golden Age" of American families. There are no Norman Rockwell families in Neptune. At least none that we know of. And yet, I'm not so sure that Neptune is devoid of "All-American" families. Neptune is populated by single parents, widowed or separated; blended families; rich, and poor of varying ethnicities. Parents with problems, parent's who can't cope, parents who only want the best for their children---and sometimes step over the line in securing it. Abusive parents, alcoholic parents, responsible parents, driven parents, loving parents, manipulative parents, parents willing to die for---or just possibly kill for---their children. And the children run just as wide a gamut. Sounds pretty All-American to me.. Excellent tie-in to the episode title! We might be able to take it one step further and say that Veronica=Beaver - always asking the hard questions and opening up pandora's boxes.
You wrote that Lianne is irrelevant. Wish that were true, but can a mother truly be irrelevant in a daughter's life? I think (even if we don't see her again) that she's going to leave a mark on Veronica's life.
Great job in comparing the 3 Neptune families. I think that RT has done a good job in setting up the characters this year and I'm so glad that this show has been given time to get it's legs. Hopefully, it'll continue to grow in popularity.
Weevil: Oh, we so need more Weevil! EETAH! Everytime I read the name "Weevil", I think of the toy 'Weebles' and it's slogan - "Weebles wobble but they don't fall down". I hope to see a lot more of Weevil next year. He has the potential to be a well-fleshed out character.
I'm anxious to watch Veronica's and Logan's relationship grow, but I would also like to see more of Duncan and Logan's best-friends breaking up story, and possibly Weevil's relationship with them both explored (in a non-slashy way). The dynamics are there to make a great story. I don't dislike Duncan or the actor who plays him. I think he did a good job of playing the spoiled rich kid - with screwed up driven parents, beset with a terrible secret love and a dibilitating disease and/or medicated persona to boot. Very Angel-like. Hopefully he'll also rev up his acting skills to meet that challenge.
I also want Wallace to play a bigger role in keeping Veronica anchored. She needs that, even though she does get that from her father, too.
Thanks to both you and Spring for a great season of reviews! I've enjoyed them all even when I haven't had time to tell you both. Look at all the new, lovely S'cubies who've joined because of your dedication! You've done S3 and Patti proud.
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Post by ElleKC on May 21, 2005 13:49:41 GMT -5
I love reading all the speculation about next season. I've got some thoughts myself about it all. We've got lots of time for our imaginations to run amok!
For the moderators: How about a special thread just for speculation about next season? It would keep our ideas from crowding into the episode discussions, especially if we get posts on the (hopefully) upcoming re-runs.
Among topics for discussion: Will RT start the season with the "cliffhanger" from the season finale? Or will he skip some time to allow Keith to recover? Will we see the Aaron Echols trial? What will happen to the relationships next season?
Also, beyond what we think the writer's will do, what do we want to see happen?
How about it moderators?
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Post by Sue on May 21, 2005 16:05:08 GMT -5
I love reading all the speculation about next season. I've got some thoughts myself about it all. We've got lots of time for our imaginations to run amok! For the moderators: How about a special thread just for speculation about next season? It would keep our ideas from crowding into the episode discussions, especially if we get posts on the (hopefully) upcoming re-runs. Among topics for discussion: Will RT start the season with the "cliffhanger" from the season finale? Or will he skip some time to allow Keith to recover? Will we see the Aaron Echols trial? What will happen to the relationships next season? Also, beyond what we think the writer's will do, what do we want to see happen? How about it moderators? Great idea.
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Post by Sue on May 23, 2005 15:22:22 GMT -5
Veronica thought she had convinced herself that it didn't matter. In fact, she signed away any claim on the Kanes without a second's thought, but it clearly did matter: her joy, relief and boundless love for Keith was palpable and heart-stopping.This dynamic is my favorite on the show. I’ve almost stopped expecting Keith to suddenly turn into a tentacled alien octopus thingy. I really don't think we will get the rug pulled out from under our feet with regard to Keith. I would regard any unexplained personality change as an enormous betrayal. And really hoping to avoid any plot-dependant "semi-explained" changes (ala Giles season 7 or even Angel season 5) as well. Excellent point about the flaws as well as the highlights. Adversity does tend to bring out both in people sometimes. And that is a thing of beauty. One the one hand, I could be embarrassed that it took me endless words to say what you just did. But, on the other hand, I'm pleased that my ramblings led to such a cogent response.
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Post by Linda on May 23, 2005 22:05:15 GMT -5
Hi Sue!
Excellent review! I agree with Lola, who thanks you for nagging us to watch enthusiastically suggesting this show. (It is not your fault that Hawaii lost its UPN affiliate. **grumble, grumble**)
I loved how you highlighted the differences between the three main families of the series (Oh, and I, too, hope that the Fennell & Mars families get together.) And thanks to Sharky and Sunworshipper for their additional father/family comparisons.
I think I tend to agree with Spring about Celeste, though. I got the feeling that we didn't get to see much of Celeste's emotional life. Which, admittedly, could be due to my missing over half the episodes. (Due to NO UPN in Hawaii -- not that I'm bitter or anything.) Or, it could even be due to Celeste not having much of an emotional life except for cold pride. But I really think there's a lot of uncharted territory for Rob Thomas to explore there. And in an earlier post, our Rob compared the moms of the three main families and Celeste actually came out the "winner."
Eetah! about everything else in your review. But an especial Eetah! about the scene between Keith and Veronica. That was an emotional payoff worth waiting for.
I also want to say:
Thank you for recapping the season and for your speculations on what lies ahead.
MANY thanks to you and to Spring for your wonderful insights into the characters and themes of this lovely series. I was dreading the post-Jossverse world, but you and Spring and S3 have made it interesting and *fun* and hopeful.
And lastly, thank you for mentioning Patti, who is still part of this entire wonderful place.
Linda, funnelcaked, but still grateful for the small portion of S3 I have been able to read of late.
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