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Post by Lola m on Oct 1, 2007 14:45:53 GMT -5
OK, I've read Be's thoughts on the episode, and I get your hesitation, Shan. You think Jack will start "chasing death" to feel alive. Understandable fear, and I wouldn't want to see Jack go in that direction either. I didn't read his comment that way...I mean, I sort of did, but not in the sense that he would start seeking out danger that could possibly kill him. Any more than any other employee of Torchwood. Jack's comment actually made me think of Asimov and Bicentennial Man, where Andrew couldn't be declared human (ie alive) until he became mortal (able to die). Good parallel.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 1, 2007 15:10:40 GMT -5
Definite agreement with your different take on love than what the writers (and other folks) may be meaning. Also liked how you looked at both sides of Jack's leadership: And Also, much eetahing on the CPR = necessary stuff! Although, um, yeah happy to have the Jack Ianto "kiss" of life stuff, so, um. OK, hypocrite is me. And you pose some very excellent questions and points about: And your entire post from 2/4? Wonderful step by step break-down of it all, leading up to a very accurate summary:
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Post by Lola m on Oct 1, 2007 15:12:36 GMT -5
So...WHY isn't Ianto fired? Because, if it was me, he would be so very fired. Possibly even on fire. I think, because Torchwood is the ultimate small, secret, insular world. They all keep slipping and there's really no where else to go. I mean, other than joining Susie . . . Plus, there's Torchwood loyalty. And, he looks good in a suit.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Oct 1, 2007 15:33:47 GMT -5
This is one where the extra stuff on www.torchwood.org.uk/ really helps, because it has background on Canary Wharf and Ianto and the usual Torchwood response to the semi converted. You can read Ianto's profile now. Is all interesting. Also - did Jack really have to kill Lisa, at the end? Stop the Cyberwoman, yes, but *was* she a Cyberwoman by then? Only in her mind, and that made her a crazy woman, not a Torchwood style threat, yesno? They're perfectly capable of containing the threat a crazy woman poses. Unless there was some hidden cybertechnology in there, Jack shot her after she'd stopped being a danger. /devil's advocate flip side, I think by the end Ianto really had realised how much the Cybermen had taken, how little of her there was left, and that he'd been wrong.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 1, 2007 15:55:25 GMT -5
This is one where the extra stuff on www.torchwood.org.uk/ really helps, because it has background on Canary Wharf and Ianto and the usual Torchwood response to the semi converted. You can read Ianto's profile now. Is all interesting. Also - did Jack really have to kill Lisa, at the end? Stop the Cyberwoman, yes, but *was* she a Cyberwoman by then? Only in her mind, and that made her a crazy woman, not a Torchwood style threat, yesno? They're perfectly capable of containing the threat a crazy woman poses. Unless there was some hidden cybertechnology in there, Jack shot her after she'd stopped being a danger. /devil's advocate Well, except for the Cyber tech knowledge and apparent desire to still use that to, you know, raise an army to upgrade all the weak humans. /devil's devil advocate, or, um, something like that . . . ;D **nods** To me, that is the ultimate argument. Is this what Lisa would have wanted? To have herself taken over like this and used? Used to kill people, threaten Earth? Somehow I don't think the woman who loved Ianto, who worked for Torchwood herself, would want that.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Oct 1, 2007 15:56:31 GMT -5
I think the other thing is Ianto hadn't faced up to the idea that someone can be a danger to themselves and others and it not be their fault. He was blaming the metal and so wanted her to not be dangerous because she's not metal. But she was dangerous, even though she didn't make the choices that made her that way. Not her fault, just everyone's problem. Ianto was living in a world where if everyone does the right thing it all works out in the end. Unfortunately, only in his head.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Oct 1, 2007 16:00:24 GMT -5
This is one where the extra stuff on www.torchwood.org.uk/ really helps, because it has background on Canary Wharf and Ianto and the usual Torchwood response to the semi converted. You can read Ianto's profile now. Is all interesting. Also - did Jack really have to kill Lisa, at the end? Stop the Cyberwoman, yes, but *was* she a Cyberwoman by then? Only in her mind, and that made her a crazy woman, not a Torchwood style threat, yesno? They're perfectly capable of containing the threat a crazy woman poses. Unless there was some hidden cybertechnology in there, Jack shot her after she'd stopped being a danger. /devil's advocate Well, except for the Cyber tech knowledge and apparent desire to still use that to, you know, raise an army to upgrade all the weak humans. /devil's devil advocate, or, um, something like that . . . ;D Yeah, but there's lots of crazy humans with knowledge of how to kill and desire to kill and, in the UK at least, we don't kill any of them. It looks like it's possible to just lock her up somewhere safe. So why don't they? *nods* The thing is, if that *was* just pure human, no cybertech there, then they did have one technology on hand that they didn't try that could conceivably have reversed the mental damage. Retcon. If they wipe enough of her memory she doesn't remember the cybermen, they wipe the upgrade. or rather repress it, it could come back. but that way they have only a potentially dangerous and probably rather freaked out at the whole body transplant woman. not even a threat. but they didn't try that, they shot her.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Oct 1, 2007 16:16:00 GMT -5
Definite agreement with your different take on love than what the writers (and other folks) may be meaning. Also liked how you looked at both sides of Jack's leadership: Also, much eetahing on the CPR = necessary stuff! Although, um, yeah happy to have the Jack Ianto "kiss" of life stuff, so, um. OK, hypocrite is me. And you pose some very excellent questions and points about: And your entire post from 2/4? Wonderful step by step break-down of it all, leading up to a very accurate summary: had to go back and read my own writing but yes, I nod along at myself and like it... erm, I mean, er, thanks! I think one of the huge things about Torchwood being the dark and grown up show is there's no one character who is the moral heart and standard for the show. in Doctor Who if you disagree with the Doctor you are in the wrong, morally, and probably in ways that'll lead to you dying. In Torchwood, *everyone's* arguably wrong at various times. Or possibly all the time in various ways. I have this theory we're watching the bad guys.
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Post by Michelle on Oct 3, 2007 9:03:43 GMT -5
Gwen and Owen had to get in the same locker, why now? Hee. It was forced, but I forgive the writers for trying to bring teh sex. I love Gwen's boyfriend so hard though--I don't want him to leave the show, though I'm sure their relationship is doomed.
I giggled muchly over Gwen's "Shit!" Don't know why, her delivery just tickles my fancy.
Ianto cries pretty. He was totally delusional, what with thinking he could save the killer robot woman and all, but he cries pretty, so I give him a pass. Yes, I *am* that shallow.
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Post by Onjel on Oct 3, 2007 12:39:57 GMT -5
Is not specifically mentioned. I like the 'coffee' theory - Ianto makes the coffee... and has access to retcon... and oh look, now he's not in trouble... But sadly it become unlikely from later evidence. Rumour has it the writers decided GDL was too cute to fire. But really, it's like the whole Angel/Angelus thing. She was turned, but she still had a soul. Angel. Then that dude fiddled with the wiring. Angelus. Ianto didn't notice right away. Staking the last vampire, even if it's Angel, makes sense to protect the whole and prevent the possibility of more vamps, but it isn't nice to the individual. The bit where she was continuing to kill people after the first one is where I stopped sympathizing with Ianto. Actually, I stopped with "hide the body". At that point, he clearly needed to 'fess up and prevent more deaths and attempted upgrades. But, no. Instead, we'll hide the body and not tell anyone. I'm with you on this. Even though the end was so sad and Ianto cries so well. Overall his actions were reprehensible. For love or not. I don't care. He did not do the right thing.
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