|
Post by Lola m on Feb 8, 2009 1:29:53 GMT -5
I thought it was wrong of Kate to keep Aaron period. She and the other Oceanic Six should have taken the trouble to find out if Aaron had any other relations in Australia. After Jin had jumped from the freighter, he ended up getting caught up in the island's time vortex? Is that what we're supposed to believe? Yeah, I'm thinking that a certain amount of water around the island jumps too. 'Cuz of how they all jumped when they were in the boat. I wonder if the fish and ocean creatures jump too . . . ;D
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Feb 8, 2009 1:33:48 GMT -5
Part III Jack and Kate in the "present." Locke subscribes to the Kirk theory of pain. [Star Trek V reference] **snicker** **snicker, snicker** Other Others just has such a fun ring to it, doesn't it? ;D Oooooh!! Yes! Maybe anything they are, like, touching or intertwined with in some way? But not stuff that is away from them? I gotta admit, I loved that little fake-out. Nicely played, Lost!
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Feb 8, 2009 1:38:23 GMT -5
I thought it was wrong of Kate to keep Aaron period. She and the other Oceanic Six should have taken the trouble to find out if Aaron had any other relations in Australia. After Jin had jumped from the freighter, he ended up getting caught up in the island's time vortex? Is that what we're supposed to believe? Yeah, I think that Jin is supposed to be within the perimeter of the island or something. I do think what Jack and Kate did vis a vis Aaron is very problematic and I wish that were explored a little more. Of course if they are whisked back to the island, then it probably won't be. I tend to think that at first taking Aaron was mostly shock and "what else can we do" and "we don't exactly know what happened to Claire and we'd be the only ones who could get Aaron back to her if somehow we find a way to locate her again" and "we have an obligation to this baby". And then they fell in love with the kid and also were trapped in the lie. Once told, how can they now say it is Claire's since they said she died right off?
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 8, 2009 10:14:26 GMT -5
Maybe anything they are, like, touching or intertwined with in some way? But not stuff that is away from them? That would mean that they would be able pull stuff out of time. Although, now that I think about it, that's what happened with the compass that Richard gave Locke who gave it back to Richard. Come to think of it, this time travel wackiness could explain half the stuff that's supposed to have happened in the Bermuda Triangle.
|
|
|
Post by fish1941 on Feb 8, 2009 23:21:30 GMT -5
Yeah, I think that Jin is supposed to be within the perimeter of the island or something. I do think what Jack and Kate did vis a vis Aaron is very problematic and I wish that were explored a little more. Of course if they are whisked back to the island, then it probably won't be. I tend to think that at first taking Aaron was mostly shock and "what else can we do" and "we don't exactly know what happened to Claire and we'd be the only ones who could get Aaron back to her if somehow we find a way to locate her again" and "we have an obligation to this baby". And then they fell in love with the kid and also were trapped in the lie. Once told, how can they now say it is Claire's since they said she died right off? The Oceanic Six had no intention of returning to that island when Kate had first suggested that she pretend to be Aaron's mother. She did so at a time when she was facing a trial for murder, bank robbery and a slew of other crimes. Which meant there was no guarantee that she would be able to raise Aaron. Which makes me wonder if she originally made this decision to use Aaron as some kind of character reference. The Oceanic Six really had no right to do what they had done to Aaron . . . mainly keep him from his relations. They should have told the truth about Aaron being Claire's son, so that the authorities could track down any of his family. What the Oceanic Six had done was wrong. And what really sickens me is that in the end, none of them - especially Kate - will not pay the price for their actions, since they will be soon be returning to the island. And Carole Littleton will never get to know her grandson. I have to admit. I'm getting a little tired of fans trying to make excuses for what Kate and the other Oceanic Six did to the Littletons. And considering that Cuse and Lindehof merely used this story line to get Kate to return to the island and use Carole Littleton as a red herring, makes me realize that the writing for LOST is very overrated. In fact, I"m beginning to wonder if this whole "Kate raising Aaron" story was some attempt to make Evangeline Lilly's presence on the series revelant. I've had it with this show. For how long, I don't know. But right now, I'm too disgusted to continue watching.
|
|
|
Post by leftylady on Feb 9, 2009 18:24:30 GMT -5
I have the feeling that the writers concocted this time-jumping plotline to help explain the various mysteries of the Island, at least as much as they're going to explain; though they're also creating new mysteries, like how/why Widmore left the Others (Eloise still seems to be an Other, or at least Other-connected). I'm not sure I'll enjoy five or six or whatever more episodes of time-jumping. And isn't it several months or more, in the latest future, that bearded Jack found dead Locke and pleaded with Kate to go back to the Island; or has that already happened?
I think LOST might lose many more mainstream viewers if the time-jumping persists. LOST became a top show in its first year, when the storyline was tight and suspenseful and took place mostly in the island, with one group of people who we were made to, with good writing and acting, care for, and clearly defined flashbacks. I still enjoy LOST, but the dramatic power it once held has been somewhat diluted. To each their own, I guess. I can see how the time jumping might not be liked by some, but I'm finding it fun. I hope we get more instances of them running into themselves. I am hoping for truly Other Others. Or even Other Other Others. Four-toers, even! I would tend to think that she really just wants Ben, but that she would not really care if others get in the way. [/color] [/quote] [/quote] I too am finding this fun. Obviously it calls for close attention and memory for details of past events. But I love it!! leftylady
|
|
|
Post by leftylady on Feb 9, 2009 18:41:34 GMT -5
Yeah, I think that Jin is supposed to be within the perimeter of the island or something. I do think what Jack and Kate did vis a vis Aaron is very problematic and I wish that were explored a little more. Of course if they are whisked back to the island, then it probably won't be. I tend to think that at first taking Aaron was mostly shock and "what else can we do" and "we don't exactly know what happened to Claire and we'd be the only ones who could get Aaron back to her if somehow we find a way to locate her again" and "we have an obligation to this baby". And then they fell in love with the kid and also were trapped in the lie. Once told, how can they now say it is Claire's since they said she died right off? Exactly. They had to lie to keep Aaron from going to Social Services. They only know that Claire was "lost". Concocting a story that she survived to give birth and then died was too iffy. Only dead-for-sure Losties were included in the initial survivor total. There was no way to explain a newborn except as Kate's child. Who else in the O6 could claim a newborn? In addition except for Kate knowing that Claire was on her way to LA to give the baby up for adoption, what did any of the O6 know about Claire's background or family? By the time Jack met Mrs. Littleton at the memorial service it was too late. The die was cast - the lie was public and needed to be left that way to protect the Losties left behind. Of course, Jack will have that much more to anguish about. leftylady
|
|
|
Post by fish1941 on Feb 10, 2009 15:01:02 GMT -5
This is too much. It's the last straw.
The above is not an excuse for what the Oceanic Six had done to Aaron. NOT AT ALL.
Even if Kate knew that Claire was planning to give up Aaron for adoption, she didn't know the circumstances behind Claire's decision or gave any hint whether she knew or not. She certainly didn't know if Claire had any family in Australia. She, Jack, Sayid, Hurley, and Sun didn't even bother to find out. Instead, they made an assumption and put Aaron into the arms of a woman who was facing trial for murder, bank robbery and other crimes. And I'm talking about Kate. They've already lied that other passengers on Flight 815 were dead . . . passengers like Sawyer, Rose and Bernard. I really don't see how it would have been difficult to tell the authorities that Claire had survived the crash, gave birth to Aaron and died later.
Would it have killed them to tell the authorities that Aaron was Claire's son? If they had, chances are he would have ended up being raised by Carole Littleton. Even after Jack and Kate learned about Carole's existence, they continued the lie. Watch the scene in "The Little Prince". The way those two were discussing Carole, they acted as if she was some kind of kidnapper. In reality, they were the kidnappers. And because of their lie, Carole will never know that she has a grandson. It's disgusting.
I realize that some of you like Kate and think she is the show's feminine ideal or something, but this is just too much. You're making excuses for what is obviously an act of kidnapping. Kate had no right to make assumptions about Claire, Aaron or other members of their family. And I'm a little disgusted that certain fans would go to such lengths to make excuses for what is obvious to me is an appalling crime.
|
|
|
Post by leftylady on Feb 10, 2009 20:45:29 GMT -5
This is too much. It's the last straw. The above is not an excuse for what the Oceanic Six had done to Aaron. NOT AT ALL. Even if Kate knew that Claire was planning to give up Aaron for adoption, she didn't know the circumstances behind Claire's decision or gave any hint whether she knew or not. She certainly didn't know if Claire had any family in Australia. She, Jack, Sayid, Hurley, and Sun didn't even bother to find out. Instead, they made an assumption and put Aaron into the arms of a woman who was facing trial for murder, bank robbery and other crimes. And I'm talking about Kate. They've already lied that other passengers on Flight 815 were dead . . . passengers like Sawyer, Rose and Bernard. I really don't see how it would have been difficult to tell the authorities that Claire had survived the crash, gave birth to Aaron and died later. Would it have killed them to tell the authorities that Aaron was Claire's son? If they had, chances are he would have ended up being raised by Carole Littleton. Even after Jack and Kate learned about Carole's existence, they continued the lie. Watch the scene in "The Little Prince". The way those two were discussing Carole, they acted as if she was some kind of kidnapper. In reality, they were the kidnappers. And because of their lie, Carole will never know that she has a grandson. It's disgusting. I realize that some of you like Kate and think she is the show's feminine ideal or something, but this is just too much. You're making excuses for what is obviously an act of kidnapping. Kate had no right to make assumptions about Claire, Aaron or other members of their family. And I'm a little disgusted that certain fans would go to such lengths to make excuses for what is obvious to me is an appalling crime. "Would it have killed them to tell the authorities that Aaron was Claire's son?" Well, yeah, it might have - or killed the ones left behind. Ben moved the whole #%$&* island to hide them from the murderous comandos on the explosive filled boat. You don't protect them from the villains by blabbing the other Losties existance / continued survival to the authorities. leftylady
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Feb 10, 2009 21:34:15 GMT -5
<<<< This is too much. It's the last straw. The above is not an excuse for what the Oceanic Six had done to Aaron. NOT AT ALL. Even if Kate knew that Claire was planning to give up Aaron for adoption, she didn't know the circumstances behind Claire's decision or gave any hint whether she knew or not. She certainly didn't know if Claire had any family in Australia. She, Jack, Sayid, Hurley, and Sun didn't even bother to find out. Instead, they made an assumption and put Aaron into the arms of a woman who was facing trial for murder, bank robbery and other crimes. And I'm talking about Kate. They've already lied that other passengers on Flight 815 were dead . . . passengers like Sawyer, Rose and Bernard. I really don't see how it would have been difficult to tell the authorities that Claire had survived the crash, gave birth to Aaron and died later. Would it have killed them to tell the authorities that Aaron was Claire's son? If they had, chances are he would have ended up being raised by Carole Littleton. Even after Jack and Kate learned about Carole's existence, they continued the lie. Watch the scene in "The Little Prince". The way those two were discussing Carole, they acted as if she was some kind of kidnapper. In reality, they were the kidnappers. And because of their lie, Carole will never know that she has a grandson. It's disgusting. I realize that some of you like Kate and think she is the show's feminine ideal or something, but this is just too much. You're making excuses for what is obviously an act of kidnapping. Kate had no right to make assumptions about Claire, Aaron or other members of their family. And I'm a little disgusted that certain fans would go to such lengths to make excuses for what is obvious to me is an appalling crime. >>> Slow down a minute, Fish. This is television; not real life. If some fans want to make excuses for Kate, it doesn't make them criminals; nor does it make them kidnappers.
I personally have never liked Kate. As far as I can tell, she's good to have around in certain situations, she doesn't scare easily, she's a good fighter, and can be helpful in crisis situations. That being said, she's also a cold-blooded murderer.
I think Kate does love Aaron. And her sudden motherhood might well have given her some sympathy votes from the jury at her trial. Maybe she believes that Claire is alive and, since she can't tell anyone that, she should keep Aaron's true identity a secret. But it's still not right. Even if Claire's mother had stayed comatose, Claire still had an aunt who might have wanted to raise the baby; and perhaps Aaron's father might have wnated him too - at any rate, they had a better claim on him than does Kate.
But this is the way the LOST writers are writing the show. Kate is a very selfish and flawed individual, though I don't find her a total villain. She'll help people she views as her friends. Just don't get on her bad side.
Gail
|
|
|
Post by fish1941 on Feb 11, 2009 2:25:25 GMT -5
All they had to do was tell the authorities that Claire had survived the plane crash, gave birth to Aaron on the island and died before they could have been rescued.
If the Oceanic Six had done the above, Carole Littleton would have had some consolation in knowing her grandson for a certain period of time.
Have you considered that?
Kate and Jack did not bother to find out whether Claire had any family in Australia. They never did bother to stop and consider that when Kate had decided to claim Aaron as her own, she was still facing trial for murder and other crimes. I'm sorry, but I just don't see any justification for the lie that Aaron was Kate's son. And Kate didn't give any real justification to Jack. She simply claimed that she had grown attached to Aaron after dealing with the loss of Sawyer and other Losties . . . like Michael.
I can't give Kate any sympathy votes because she loved Aaron. Regardless of whether she loved him or not, she had committed kidnapping for her own selfish reasons. And I can't help but find that personally repulsive.
|
|
|
Post by Onjel on Feb 11, 2009 7:17:18 GMT -5
All they had to do was tell the authorities that Claire had survived the plane crash, gave birth to Aaron on the island and died before they could have been rescued. If the Oceanic Six had done the above, Carole Littleton would have had some consolation in knowing her grandson for a certain period of time. Have you considered that? Kate and Jack did not bother to find out whether Claire had any family in Australia. They never did bother to stop and consider that when Kate had decided to claim Aaron as her own, she was still facing trial for murder and other crimes. I'm sorry, but I just don't see any justification for the lie that Aaron was Kate's son. And Kate didn't give any real justification to Jack. She simply claimed that she had grown attached to Aaron after dealing with the loss of Sawyer and other Losties . . . like Michael. I can't give Kate any sympathy votes because she loved Aaron. Regardless of whether she loved him or not, she had committed kidnapping for her own selfish reasons. And I can't help but find that personally repulsive. I see your points about Kate's actions, but asking if those of opposite views have considered Carol's feelings is patronizing. While I agree that Carol has been deprived of her grandson's love and affection and I, too, have problems with the continued sham that Aaron is Kate's son, the writers have made it very clear that for now they intend to maintain the fiction to heighten the drama. Since we don't know how the writers intend to resolve this issue, or whether they intend to do so, I am of the opinion that it's best to ride it out and see where it goes. It may very well be that Claire is found alive and Aaron is returned to her in the end. We just have to wait and see. If you choose not to do so, that is your prerogative, but others on this thread enjoy the show and all its moral questions and implausibilities. In the meantime, let's try to be a bit more objective about this since it is a work of fiction and entertainment and not be so dismissive of other posters' views. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by fish1941 on Feb 11, 2009 11:57:49 GMT -5
I understand that this is merely drama on the writers' part. And I understand that it is likely that Aaron will be reunited with Claire on the island.
But from a moral point of view, Aaron's reconciliation with Claire will not erase the actions of Kate, Jack and the other members of the Oceanic Six. Their lie prevented Carole Littleton from ever knowing her grandson. Their lie put Aaron into the hands of a woman who had no business having custody of him in the first place.
Will the show address this issue? I don't know. I hope they do. I hope that Cuse and Lindehof will finally force the Oceanic Six to acknowledge some kind of remorse for their actions or face the consequences, instead of pretending that they had done nothing wrong . . . which is what many fans of the show have been doing.
In regard to the actions of unpopular characters like Ana-Lucia and Michael, many fans have been patronizing in their moral outrage over their actions. But no one has lectured these fans for their opinions. Why? Perhaps the reason is that characters like Ana-Lucia and Michael are unpopular, in compare to characters like Kate and Jack.
|
|
|
Post by Shan on Feb 11, 2009 12:23:07 GMT -5
In regard to the actions of unpopular characters like Ana-Lucia and Michael, many fans have been patronizing in their moral outrage over their actions. But no one has lectured these fans for their opinions. Why? Perhaps the reason is that characters like Ana-Lucia and Michael are unpopular, in compare to characters like Kate and Jack. You miss Onjel's point: YOU have posted in an offensive and patronizing way to the others on this board whose opinions are different from yours and it won't be tolerated. You have been politely reminded of our rules, warned for repeated infractions of them, and banned once. If you wish to continue posting on this forum, remember that we're here to discuss the shows and our opinions of the shows. Modify your responses accordingly or you will lose your posting privileges.
|
|
|
Post by Onjel on Feb 11, 2009 12:27:01 GMT -5
I understand that this is merely drama on the writers' part. And I understand that it is likely that Aaron will be reunited with Claire on the island. But from a moral point of view, Aaron's reconciliation with Claire will not erase the actions of Kate, Jack and the other members of the Oceanic Six. Their lie prevented Carole Littleton from ever knowing her grandson. Their lie put Aaron into the hands of a woman who had no business having custody of him in the first place. Will the show address this issue? I don't know. I hope they do. I hope that Cuse and Lindehof will finally force the Oceanic Six to acknowledge some kind of remorse for their actions or face the consequences, instead of pretending that they had done nothing wrong . . . which is what many fans of the show have been doing.
In regard to the actions of unpopular characters like Ana-Lucia and Michael, many fans have been patronizing in their moral outrage over their actions. But no one has lectured these fans for their opinions. Why? Perhaps the reason is that characters like Ana-Lucia and Michael are unpopular, in compare to characters like Kate and Jack. I don't get the sense that people here are pretending no wrong has been committed. What I see is that there are genuine attempts to see beyond the surface (which is admittedly egregious) and explore the background. People do all kinds of things out of a sense of desperation and then are forced to continue keeping up appearances. Sometimes actions are misguided and not engaged in out of malice or evil but look that way and even if the person wants to correct things he or she is trapped into that need to preserve the facade. Lies pile on top of lies until something breaks. It's clear that Kate loves Aaron. It may be a selfish love, I'll concede that, but she loves him nonetheless. She may believe she is protecting him, and be unable to recognize how wrong she is. Now, however, she is trapped into keeping the sham going because to do otherwise may endanger a larger group of people and, of course, her self. And, let's not forget that Jack started going downhill after he realized that Aaron had a living grandmother; the mother of his very own half-sister. I can see genuine remorse there for depriving the woman of her only grandchild. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't erase the pain she will feel once she discovers his role in that deprivation. In any event, I think you are painting people with a broad brush when you say that they are "pretending nothing has happened" and misconstruing their own motives behind their posts. There may be people out there who are, but on this board, I have found the members to be thinking, reasoning people and to label them as somehow delusional or at worst criminally-minded does them and you a disservice.We are not here to lecture fans about their opinions of any character and I think this has been communicated before. It is the manner of expressing those opinions with which issue can be taken. When a person of opposing conviction tells or implies that another is deranged, delusional, naive, stupid, morally bankrupt or any other insult of that ilk, because the other disagrees, the person doing the insulting is in the wrong. And, just to be clear, no one is offended because you don't like a character or their behavior. We are offended when you persist in addressing those of differing opinions as somehow worthy only of contempt. That is where the problem lies.
|
|