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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 27, 2003 17:21:36 GMT -5
Re Spike going game faced: Can he? I forget - have we seen him vampy this season yet? Re Shanshu: This struck me as odd - was she just being careless in her language? Did she forget? Or what? Len, Spike went vamp-faced when he first materialized, charged Angel, and ended up in the middle of Angel's desk. About Shanshu-ing, Fred wasn't there when Wes first translated the prophecy. Only Angel, Wes, and Cordy were. So it may have been reported to her exactly as she says it: as a prophecy about Angel, without any of the possible ambiguities of the original language. At the time it was deciphered, the only souled vampire was Angel, so it seemed obvious at that time that it had to refer to Angel because who else was there for it to refer to? Then Spike shows up all ensouled and I doubt it's occurred to anyone, except possibly Angel, to reexamine the original interpretation. Later: I see Rae has already responded to the initial point. She's right.
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Post by Queen E on Oct 27, 2003 18:41:14 GMT -5
Don't really have anything to add outside of what's already been said except to add my praise to the others; great review--gave me a lot to think about that I hadn't noted on my own.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 27, 2003 19:06:41 GMT -5
Don't really have anything to add outside of what's already been said except to add my praise to the others; great review--gave me a lot to think about that I hadn't noted on my own. Glad you enjoyed it, eg. I wish I'd had another day to work on it. I had the glass in the wrong eye for Eyeglass Woman (it was her left--I think I may be left/right impaired) and believed the scene with Angel, in his penthouse, was after Spike was slashed. It wasn't: it was before. I've rewatched the ep twice since I wrote the review and noticed these oopses. Although it's great to be able to download the eps in advance, they're no longer available a whole day in advance--rather, something like 2-4 on Wednesday. So that doesn't give me much of a head start. Whine, moan, bitch....
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Post by batmankm on Oct 28, 2003 2:31:33 GMT -5
Im back...and i brought along my 2 cents.
acceptance and choices
If forgiveness is to ever be achieved first must come acceptance. Acceptance of who we are, what we have been and done and most importantly what we want to be.
Choices are the historical record and the present and future actions that forge the answers to who we are, what we have done and most importantly what we want to be. Our heroes are constantly having to deal with their choices. Spike thought that his disappearances where trips to hell and they left him confused, scared and off center. You see he had made the necessary sacrifices to gain his soul back, he had saved the world, saved the woman he loved the fellow soldiers and now he was going to burn in hell?!!? I think it threw into disarray much of the clarity he had reached in the final eps of Buffy. Or perhaps....... maybe there was yet much that wasn't clear for old William. He had reached a level of acceptance of himself and his past choices (lies My Parents Never Told Me) and was making new choices in his second chance. Based on this eps I think we can say that he had not accepted that past completely. Did he understand it, absolutely, was he no-longer controlled by it, surely, but fully accepted who he had been, what he had done and the price he will pay......maybe not. By the end of this weeks eps I think that has truly happened. When he is on the floor, naked and being taunted by the Reaper and he looks into the mouth of hell and listens to the explanation of what his captor has done and continues to do, he gains a new level of insight. He has been as evil, but he is not any more. He will pay for his past choices and that he can not change, but in that knowledge comes true acceptance. In acceptance he gains choice. Choice empowers and gives strength. Strength to chooses to handle the time he has left differently. To be true to himself, and in so doing he finds new courage and is able to confront his fear (metaphorically presented in the reaper) and truly stand up to it. The question on the minds of the FG, with the exception of Fred, has always been "is Spike worth saving." The real question has always been...does Spike think he is worth saving. It apears that it took going to hell and back as they say to get him to realize he was in fact worth it!
We all have done things we think back on and regret, we all wish we could be better people, we all punish ourselves for past indiscretions, but there comes a point, a cross roads so to speak where we must choose. Choose to wallow in the mud of our regret or stand up, take account of the past, put on our leather jacket and strike out on a new path one where we choose more wisely because we accept who we are, what we have done. Those truths of our past become our rudder and no-longer our cellar/prison. Yes i don't think the choice of the basement for Spikes confrontations with the Reaper was coincidental. Rather it was another clue to the fact that some of the healing process accomplished in season 7 Buffy, was yet unfinished.
Seeing the episode as i do his choice of Fred over physical manifestation was a for gone conclusion. But the significance of this choice is the clear "acceptance" that it creates among the rest of the FG. Through this selfless act Spike has demonstrated to all of them that which Fred has seen since the beginning, that Spike is "worth saving".
Acceptance...choices... Angel is clearly in the midst of the same struggle. Though he and Spike bicker, they fight, they express great hatred for each-other, there common fate, their history, their now shared doom binds them like no others in the group. Often those that reflect back at us things that we don't like about our selves, become the objects of our anger and dislike. ( It didn't escape me that this episode is the first time we ever hear Angel say that he hates the term "Champion" interesting) But Angels confession that he "always liked" Spikes..or should I say Williams poems, is significant. I ask you what is poetry if not your soul put into words on paper. Though they spend the scene presenting there hatred for each other Angels confession speaks volumes about his true feelings for the person at the core inside Spike. The soul, the fellow champion in Spike. I would argue that at that moment, Angel has begun to accept Spike. Perhaps Angel has yet to truly accept himself , his condition, his choices, his past, his fate and his similarity to Spike. But by accepting Spike he has made the first step towards coming to terms with his own condition. Interestingly we have seen Angels consumption of blood change dramatically in these early eps of this season. Prior to his CEO position blood was drunk from jars stored in the fridge. In the first eps we see harmony give him a special mix in a coffee mug, and now in this scene he pours from a crystal liquor carafe. The symbolism for alcohol was pretty overt. He pours, sips and sits in the couch, slowly drinking and symbolically self medicating, not really coming to terms with his pain, not accepting it and moving forward but rather trying to numb it.
wow I have rambled on and on..... time to chill...its only a show...its only a show. Yeah but its a really good one!! :-)
I think my old friend Len has brought up some very valid points. The whole question of Vampires being human hosts for demons begs allot of questions regarding the similarity of Spike and William/Spike. This is true for both Angel and Spike with regard to judgment on actions that the their respective possessing daemons committed. Hence I agree that its an inconsistency that the soul of Spike, or Angel for that matter, will burn in hell when they had nothing to do with the atrocities there bodies committed. On the other hand it may come down to choices again. If i recall correctly they both had a level of choice in turning to Vampires, coxed by Darla and Dru yes but they had duplicity for sure in that decision. Not coincidentally we are reminded I believe in eps 2 that Angel was given back his soul not by choice were as we know old Spiky bit the bullet and fought to get his back. Maybe that "choice" will be a fate altering one:-)
SpringSummers made some excellent observations along the same lines regarding Spikes acceptance of himself. And I agree that perhaps it is the duality that Angel forces on himself that perpetuates his cycle of good and evil, as well as holds back his ability to move past the pain and the guilt. Its a great point. I mean in allot of ways Angel is unrealistically black and white where Spike lives clearly in the grays. Bravo Springsummers!
Lastly another great review by Nan and another spectacular thread filled with awesome insight and observation. Great to be a part of it.
But now its late and time for bed. More importantly its now officially Tuesday... only one more night to the next chapter!!!
later
KM
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 28, 2003 2:55:33 GMT -5
KM, you certainly have made an impassioned statement here and clearly reflected both on the episode and on the comments and speculations of others. I'm glad, therefore, that you've joined the discussion!
I think you're right: the comparison with Spike makes Angel's situation, his attitude, and his choices even clearer than they were in isolation. At the moment, he's not coming off very well in this comparison. He's bitter, despairing, cynical, resigned. It's not Spike he feels isn't worth saving--it's himself. I agree with you about the significance of the basement, given Spike's history.
And I haven't noticed anyone commenting on exactly what Spike sees in Pavayne's minions. There's a woman lacking arms; there's a man who's methodically cutting his fingers off. These are images of impotence: the hands represent the ability to touch and to act in the world, and this man and woman, through whatever events, are either giving that capacity away or losing it. Then there's the woman blinded in one eye by a large shard of glass. This is a strange blindness accomplished by clear glass, that's supposed to enable one to see clearly. So it's a spiritual, not a literal blindness. It's an injury to the capacity for insight...and that injury can in turn hurt others: Spike, in this case. True there are other figures passing through, like the hanged man and the lawyer. If they have a separate significance, I can't see it yet. But it takes Spike's recognition that this unholy trinity--the doubly-enforced inability to act, the inability to truly see--are unreal and cannot in fact hurt him that enables him to act (effectively) and to see (clearly). I think that's why these creatures of Pavayne's mind are highlighted in this episode.
By golly: if one thinks the episode over a few times, new things start to surface, don't they?
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 28, 2003 4:21:31 GMT -5
I actually don't think either boys are doing good for atonement's sake. I think they both feel that they have to do good for good's sake. The smartest thing for them to do is to take a "virtue is its own reward" attitude, and then take whatever lumps they must take, when the time comes. Angel started out, possibly, looking to atone, but I thought he made it clear in this episode that he is not counting on ever being able to make-up for the past in any meaningful way. Spike knows better as well. Personally, I think that's the only possible road to real atonement/redemption for either one of them: Doing right because it's the right thing to do - not as a means to seek atonement. It's the only shot they have. It's the best thing they can do all around. Angel is having a harder time with everything - past guilt, the idea of letting go of possible future redemption and reward, etc . . . but I don't think this is about feeling more guilty and wanting to atone more. I think has to do with Angel's more controlling personality, the understandable effects of the curse (being hyper-aware of its threats), and that huge separation he has forced between Angel/Angelus. Spike has historically been a self-willed, self-oriented fellow, but there are inklings that his attitude has changed slightly since he acquired his soul. Don't forget, despite his intense love for Buffy and desire to be with her, he volunteered to leave her, and presumably Sunnydale after Robin joined the team, because he knew he wasn't safe and didn't want to expose the Potentials and Dawn to the danger that the First could inflict through him.
His motive in wanting to bear the risky amulet was mostly about trying to one-up Angel and be Buffy's champion. And he wanted to do a great deed; Spike has always been fond of making grand gestures.
But Spike's choice in HELLBOUND to save Fred at the cost of his own corporeality was truly unselfish. He hates being a ghost; and there's no guarantee that his condition will change anytime soon. He likes Fred, but doesn't know her very well; his choice was not dictated by passion or obsession or promises to a lady...
It remains to be seen whether Spike will be capable of exerting himself in a more disinterested way, to help people/beings who he doesn't know, who are unconnected to him. We'll see. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Karen on Oct 28, 2003 8:01:44 GMT -5
Ok, everyone. Just when I thought I could maybe slack off reading everyone's posts, well, you all come up with some new insights that leave me saying ~WOW~! Nan, you are so right when you say that after reflection new things are discovered in the episodes. There are so many layers. And reading S'cubie insights are in some ways more fun and exciting than watching the show itself. It's cool to read each post which then stimulates such great insights on down the line. Of course the reaper's minions must have some symbolic meaning (it seems so obvious now that you say it, Nan) - even the lawyer that startled Spike and he just nonchelantly (sp?) said - 'oh, a lawyer', or something must have a meaning. It struck me as funny - but must mean something? And the hanging guy. I'm sure this will all be figured out.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 28, 2003 8:28:23 GMT -5
Spike has historically been a self-willed, self-oriented fellow, but there are inklings that his attitude has changed slightly since he acquired his soul. Don't forget, despite his intense love for Buffy and desire to be with her, he volunteered to leave her, and presumably Sunnydale after Robin joined the team, because he knew he wasn't safe and didn't want to expose the Potentials and Dawn to the danger that the First could inflict through him.
His motive in wanting to bear the risky amulet was mostly about trying to one-up Angel and be Buffy's champion. And he wanted to do a great deed; Spike has always been fond of making grand gestures.
But Spike's choice in HELLBOUND to save Fred at the cost of his own corporeality was truly unselfish. He hates being a ghost; and there's no guarantee that his condition will change anytime soon. He likes Fred, but doesn't know her very well; his choice was not dictated by passion or obsession or promises to a lady...
It remains to be seen whether Spike will be capable of exerting himself in a more disinterested way, to help people/beings who he doesn't know, who are unconnected to him. We'll see. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] I agree, though I would say that what we get is a lot more than just inklings that Spike's attitude has changed since his soul - and I think it has changed dramatically, not slightly. Aside from going from no-remorse for 1000s of crimes to overwhelming remorse for the same, in Season 7, he's willing to help Buffy in a selfless manner, not for what he can get from Buffy. When he tells Buffy he doesn't' want anything from her, he means it. This is a 180 deg turn-around from pre-soul Spike. In the second AtS episode this season, even though he is being pulled into hell and he knows it, he gives up a chance to be corporeal for no other reason than to help stop the evil necromancer and his evil doings (putting demons into bodies so that they can better harm innocent people). And, in this last episode, he again gave up his chance, to save Fred. He has retained the same snarky exterior, but his actions show us a very different Spike underneath.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 28, 2003 8:45:45 GMT -5
KM, you certainly have made an impassioned statement here and clearly reflected both on the episode and on the comments and speculations of others. I'm glad, therefore, that you've joined the discussion! I think you're right: the comparison with Spike makes Angel's situation, his attitude, and his choices even clearer than they were in isolation. At the moment, he's not coming off very well in this comparison. He's bitter, despairing, cynical, resigned. It's not Spike he feels isn't worth saving--it's himself. I agree with you about the significance of the basement, given Spike's history. And I haven't noticed anyone commenting on exactly what Spike sees in Pavayne's minions. There's a woman lacking arms; there's a man who's methodically cutting his fingers off. These are images of impotence: the hands represent the ability to touch and to act in the world, and this man and woman, through whatever events, are either giving that capacity away or losing it. Then there's the woman blinded in one eye by a large shard of glass. This is a strange blindness accomplished by clear glass, that's supposed to enable one to see clearly. So it's a spiritual, not a literal blindness. It's an injury to the capacity for insight...and that injury can in turn hurt others: Spike, in this case. True there are other figures passing through, like the hanged man and the lawyer. If they have a separate significance, I can't see it yet. But it takes Spike's recognition that this unholy trinity--the doubly-enforced inability to act, the inability to truly see--are unreal and cannot in fact hurt him that enables him to act (effectively) and to see (clearly). I think that's why these creatures of Pavayne's mind are highlighted in this episode. By golly: if one thinks the episode over a few times, new things start to surface, don't they? No doubt you are on to something there Nan- I'm sure the figures and their particular unique actions or . . . grotesqueries had some significance - to the episodes themes (definitely the episode touched on the power/impotence theme you mention) and possibly some foreshadowing of things to come. I can say that the "eye poked out" minion made me think of Xander. I can't remember the minions well enough to comment much further - but strong images like that are not usually randomly presented in the Jossverse.
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Post by Queen E on Oct 28, 2003 10:35:45 GMT -5
KM, you certainly have made an impassioned statement here and clearly reflected both on the episode and on the comments and speculations of others. I'm glad, therefore, that you've joined the discussion! I think you're right: the comparison with Spike makes Angel's situation, his attitude, and his choices even clearer than they were in isolation. At the moment, he's not coming off very well in this comparison. He's bitter, despairing, cynical, resigned. It's not Spike he feels isn't worth saving--it's himself. I agree with you about the significance of the basement, given Spike's history. And I haven't noticed anyone commenting on exactly what Spike sees in Pavayne's minions. There's a woman lacking arms; there's a man who's methodically cutting his fingers off. These are images of impotence: the hands represent the ability to touch and to act in the world, and this man and woman, through whatever events, are either giving that capacity away or losing it. Then there's the woman blinded in one eye by a large shard of glass. This is a strange blindness accomplished by clear glass, that's supposed to enable one to see clearly. So it's a spiritual, not a literal blindness. It's an injury to the capacity for insight...and that injury can in turn hurt others: Spike, in this case. True there are other figures passing through, like the hanged man and the lawyer. If they have a separate significance, I can't see it yet. But it takes Spike's recognition that this unholy trinity--the doubly-enforced inability to act, the inability to truly see--are unreal and cannot in fact hurt him that enables him to act (effectively) and to see (clearly). I think that's why these creatures of Pavayne's mind are highlighted in this episode. By golly: if one thinks the episode over a few times, new things start to surface, don't they? That reminds me of tarot images. "If you have received the Hanged Man in your reading, think about “giving up” in a new way: you may need to lose the battle to win the war, or go one step backward to go two forward. The Hanged Man asks you to accept your situation, recognize the current, and not fight against it; for if you do, you will undoubtedly waste much time trying to undo your own good intentions. Instead, surrender, for the good of the cause, and in time you will again be upright, with the wind at your back."
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Post by batmankm on Oct 28, 2003 11:27:22 GMT -5
KM, you certainly have made an impassioned statement here and clearly reflected both on the episode and on the comments and speculations of others. I'm glad, therefore, that you've joined the discussion! Why thank you. Its a pleasure to be here when i can:-) And I haven't noticed anyone commenting on exactly what Spike sees in Pavayne's minions. There's a woman lacking arms; there's a man who's methodically cutting his fingers off. These are images of impotence: the hands represent the ability to touch and to act in the world, and this man and woman, through whatever events, are either giving that capacity away or losing it. Then there's the woman blinded in one eye by a large shard of glass. This is a strange blindness accomplished by clear glass, that's supposed to enable one to see clearly. So it's a spiritual, not a literal blindness. It's an injury to the capacity for insight...and that injury can in turn hurt others: Spike, in this case. True there are other figures passing through, like the hanged man and the lawyer. If they have a separate significance, I can't see it yet. But it takes Spike's recognition that this unholy trinity--the doubly-enforced inability to act, the inability to truly see--are unreal and cannot in fact hurt him that enables him to act (effectively) and to see (clearly). I think that's why these creatures of Pavayne's mind are highlighted in this episode. YES!!!!! What a great observation I agree whole heartedly and am so glad you mentioned it. It seems so obvious now. Its these underlying metaphors and subtext that make these stories so rich. SandyShores said it best And reading S'cubie insights are in some ways more fun and exciting than watching the show itself. It's cool to read each post which then stimulates such great insights on down the line. I couldnt agree with her more. Nan, I would add to your insight on the glass in the eye minion with the observation that it is through steam covered glass that Spike is able to write through the fog and in so doing communicate with Fred, helping her to see figuratively as well as literally. So here again we have clear glass as a vehicle, made unclear with steam, that becomes a tool for Spike to communicate with....by using, yes, his fingers!!!! No longer symbolically "hacked off" by the lies of Pavayne in Season 7, he's willing to help Buffy in a selfless manner, not for what he can get from Buffy. When he tells Buffy he doesn't' want anything from her, he means it. This is a 180 deg turn-around from pre-soul Spike. Yes but let me pose a couple questions. Perhaps Spike was still dealing with his mother infatuation issues in season 7 Buffy. Clearly that is shown to us in Lies My Parents... What was Buffy to Spike? His says it it himself in his speech to her on one knee in , I think "Touched" second to last Buffy season 7 eps. She is strong, focused, caring and powerful. Perhaps representing a mother like image to Spike, souled, lost, pained and tortured Spike. I don't mean to take away from his love for Buffy because I believe it was true but we love for many reasons, not always ones as nobel as we would like to think. I think he has grown, more in this one episode then perhaps in the last 25 episodes of of BtVS 7 and Angel season 5 combined. as RAKSHA pointed out on Today at 04:21am, RAKSHA wrote: But Spike's choice in HELLBOUND to save Fred at the cost of his own corporeality was truly unselfish. He hates being a ghost; and there's no guarantee that his condition will change anytime soon. He likes Fred, but doesn't know her very well; his choice was not dictated by passion or obsession or promises to a lady... we shall see. I can say that the "eye poked out" minion made me think of Xander. Wow great insight. Probably not a coincidence. Xandors power was to see and observe from the human non super being perspective. He provided allot of stability and therefore strength in this contribution to the Scubbies. Certainly Its Spike that sees now for the FG. From day one of his appearance he has been calling it like it really is with regard to each of them individually as well as the dirty deal they have struck with W&H. Yeah I think that ghost with the glass in the eye was a multi level metaphor for sure. Man I'm never going to get any work done if i keep reading and responding to all these great posts! KM
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Post by batmankm on Oct 28, 2003 11:29:57 GMT -5
That reminds me of tarot images. "If you have received the Hanged Man in your reading, think about “giving up” in a new way: you may need to lose the battle to win the war, or go one step backward to go two forward. The Hanged Man asks you to accept your situation, recognize the current, and not fight against it; for if you do, you will undoubtedly waste much time trying to undo your own good intentions. Instead, surrender, for the good of the cause, and in time you will again be upright, with the wind at your back." Excellent.! Makes allot of sense given the story line. KM
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Post by Nickim on Oct 28, 2003 16:11:00 GMT -5
That reminds me of tarot images. "If you have received the Hanged Man in your reading, think about ?giving up? in a new way: you may need to lose the battle to win the war, or go one step backward to go two forward. The Hanged Man asks you to accept your situation, recognize the current, and not fight against it; for if you do, you will undoubtedly waste much time trying to undo your own good intentions. Instead, surrender, for the good of the cause, and in time you will again be upright, with the wind at your back." Sounds exactly like Spike's situation. He seems to have come to terms with his incorporeal state, so now he can wait for "the wind at his back".
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Post by WDreamer on Oct 29, 2003 1:51:35 GMT -5
Hello, all. N'ubie here.
Just wanted to tell you all how much I've enjoyed lurking here the last week or so. However, the reviews and comments are all so insightful and knowledgeable that it can be rather intimidating to someone like me who is new to this territory!
But I do have one comment about this episode. The pivotal scene, it seems to me, is the dialogue between Angel and Spike in Angel's penthouse. To Spike's question about the purpose of continuing to do good without hope of reward, Angel says something like "What else can we do?" I believe that Angel used almost identical language back in the season one episode in which Gunn is introduced. At the very end, after Gunn has been forced to stake his own little sister, Angel meets Gunn in an open space overlooking the city. Gunn asks why they should keep fighting and Angel says "What else can we do?"
Of course this was before the Shansu prophecy, but Angel's fatalism is nothing new.
Looking forward to seeing tonight's episode--late, and on tape. I can't wait to see what you all have to say about it.
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Post by Sue on Oct 29, 2003 7:04:49 GMT -5
Hello, all. N'ubie here. Just wanted to tell you all how much I've enjoyed lurking here the last week or so. However, the reviews and comments are all so insightful and knowledgeable that it can be rather intimidating to someone like me who is new to this territory! But I do have one comment about this episode. The pivotal scene, it seems to me, is the dialogue between Angel and Spike in Angel's penthouse. To Spike's question about the purpose of continuing to do good without hope of reward, Angel says something like "What else can we do?" I believe that Angel used almost identical language back in the season one episode in which Gunn is introduced. At the very end, after Gunn has been forced to stake his own little sister, Angel meets Gunn in an open space overlooking the city. Gunn asks why they should keep fighting and Angel says "What else can we do?" Of course this was before the Shansu prophecy, but Angel's fatalism is nothing new. Looking forward to seeing tonight's episode--late, and on tape. I can't wait to see what you all have to say about it. Dreamer- Indeed we are tremendously insightful, overwhelmingly knowledgeable and every single one of us is breathtakingly gorgeous. (Too bad none of those smiley faces is clearly showing tongue in cheek.) It's such a curse. But, I'm sure you will fit right in. (Actually, try taking a peek at the last 20 pages of posting over on the "Main" board, the part 60 thread--probably get a whole different impression of our "intellectual-ness." Thanks for posting, keep it up. Sue Oh... and young, we're all young... And... just so this post is legitmately "on-topic"-- it's good to have folks like you who know Angel history. Many of us are transplated Buffy-ites and are just starting to get up to speed on Angel.
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