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Post by Lola m on Jul 13, 2004 19:37:28 GMT -5
First, let me just say applause applause for the title of your review! Because as much as I love the final line of AtS - "Let's go to work" - I love the penultimate line ever more. "Well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon." Eetah with the other folks' comments regarding your "Spike revival" theories. Lindsey seems the only plausible explanation. Along with explaning the return of Spike and the later twists and turns that Lindsey makes, it also gives us the background needed to explain Lorne's willingness to kill him. We will never know all the details of Lindsey's (and Eve's) plan, but yours seems most probable to me, with a touch of be's suggestion of later changes and adaptions by Lindsey as needed. As for unfinished business, the robots of Lineage were the biggest hanging thread for me. I can only hope that there was every intention of re-introducing this plot line in season 6 and we simply never got a chance to see the interesting turns it would have taken. Which now that I write it down is not such a happy thought either, is it. I've said it before - and you sum it up beautifully here in your review - but I think the "last perfect day" part of the episode was the most moving thing we saw on Angel all season. And the perfect way to let us "say good bye" to each of these characters. Thank you for your marvelous reviews all season long and than you for your fitting words at the end of this review. You're a s'cubie treasure, Nan! Lola
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Post by Queen E on Jul 13, 2004 20:15:29 GMT -5
First, let me just say applause applause for the title of your review! Because as much as I love the final line of AtS - "Let's go to work" - I love the penultimate line ever more. "Well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon." Eetah with the other folks' comments regarding your "Spike revival" theories. Lindsey seems the only plausible explanation. Along with explaning the return of Spike and the later twists and turns that Lindsey makes, it also gives us the background needed to explain Lorne's willingness to kill him. We will never know all the details of Lindsey's (and Eve's) plan, but yours seems most probable to me, with a touch of be's suggestion of later changes and adaptions by Lindsey as needed. As for unfinished business, the robots of Lineage were the biggest hanging thread for me. I can only hope that there was every intention of re-introducing this plot line in season 6 and we simply never got a chance to see the interesting turns it would have taken. Which now that I write it down is not such a happy thought either, is it. I've said it before - and you sum it up beautifully here in your review - but I think the "last perfect day" part of the episode was the most moving thing we saw on Angel all season. And the perfect way to let us "say good bye" to each of these characters. Thank you for your marvelous reviews all season long and than you for your fitting words at the end of this review. You're a s'cubie treasure, Nan! Lola Not big with the crying, but definitely felt moved by the "perfect days" of each of the characters. It really brought home that, no matter how much circumstances have changed, the characters, in essence, remain the same.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 14, 2004 2:56:21 GMT -5
(On the subject of the cyborg ninjas of doom, however... I'd read somewhere someone mentioning that the cyborg Wes and Roger were examining before it almost blew up had the symbol of the Circle of the Black Thorn in its chest. Is that true? I don't happen to have that episode available for reviewing, sadly...) The internal unit was round with 8 pointy bits. I think they looked too straight to say its the same symbol. Similar, but a lot of symbols are similar.
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Post by Kerrie on Jul 15, 2004 16:20:07 GMT -5
Great review, Nan. I have been dreading watching this episode because I inferred that your lack of review was due to the poor quality of the ending.
I watched the episode last night and I mostly enjoyed the "perfect day" of the FG. It was insightful.
My key concern was that you did not list what I perceived to be Angel's biggest failure as leader. He provoked the Senior Partners into bringing on a Apocolypse just so he could show them that he was not a puppet. Previously the Senior Partners were interested in maintaining the status quo and now thanks to Angel we see an Apocolyspse similar to the one that Buffy tries to avert in Season 5 (complete with dragon). This is just a grave error of judgement as far as I can see. Maybe it is because I am Australian and don't value free will as much as I should, but Angel's actions in fighting the Black Thorn without a plan for dealing with the forseen fall-out from the Senior Partners is just mind-boggling: it makes no sense to sacrifice the world as we know it just make a gesture. It is also unlike Angel to willingly undertake battles that he cannot win. It reminds me of Spike.
It was also disconcerting that all the human heroes were mortally wounded. To me it looked like that JW was planning to cut his "star" budget in season 6 by having fewer main characters (just Angel, Spike and Illyria).
PS I realise that the dragon may be just there for the symbolism of Angel fighting it (St George-style), but I was not overly enamoured with it's presence: it was too season 5 Buffy.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 15, 2004 16:55:03 GMT -5
Great review, Nan. I have been dreading watching this episode because I inferred that your lack of review was due to the poor quality of the ending. I watched the episode last night and I mostly enjoyed the "perfect day" of the FG. It was insightful. My key concern was that you did not list what I perceived to be Angel's biggest failure as leader. He provoked the Senior Partners into bringing on a Apocolypse just so he could show them that he was not a puppet. Previously the Senior Partners were interested in maintaining the status quo and now thanks to Angel we see an Apocolyspse similar to the one that Buffy tries to avert in Season 5 (complete with dragon). This is just a grave error of judgement as far as I can see. Maybe it is because I am Australian and don't value free will as much as I should, but Angel's actions in fighting the Black Thorn without a plan for dealing with the forseen fall-out from the Senior Partners is just mind-boggling: it makes no sense to sacrifice the world as we know it just make a gesture. It is also unlike Angel to willingly undertake battles that he cannot win. It reminds me of Spike.It was also disconcerting that all the human heroes were mortally wounded. To me it looked like that JW was planning to cut his "star" budget in season 6 by having fewer main characters (just Angel, Spike and Illyria). PS I realise that the dragon may be just there for the symbolism of Angel fighting it (St George-style), but I was not overly enamoured with it's presence: it was too season 5 Buffy. I have nothing to add except a hearty EETAH, Kerrie.
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Post by shellyd on Jul 16, 2004 7:51:13 GMT -5
I am new to the site, but there is something I have been thinking about since the final episode. Did Angel REALLY sign away his Shanshu rights? There was such a point made of showing him signing the contact in blood, but his signature was totally illegible. Then, there was a big point he made when offering to help Connor with his resume...he said "I have beautiful penmanship..." or something to that effect. So, not knowing how legal contracts work, was that his signature and is it valid or was he trying to "go along" without really doing so. Maybe some of the lawyers in the group can answer this one.
Am I all wet here or am I on to something? I'd really like to know.
Great review, by the way...
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Post by Queen E on Jul 16, 2004 8:00:54 GMT -5
I am new to the site, but there is something I have been thinking about since the final episode. Did Angel REALLY sign away his Shanshu rights? There was such a point made of showing him signing the contact in blood, but his signature was totally illegible. Then, there was a big point he made when offering to help Connor with his resume...he said "I have beautiful penmanship..." or something to that effect. So, not knowing how legal contracts work, was that his signature and is it valid or was he trying to "go along" without really doing so. Maybe some of the lawyers in the group can answer this one. Am I all wet here or am I on to something? I'd really like to know. Great review, by the way... I think you are definitely on to something; there was quite a bit of debate on the main board here about whether or not he really signed this away. But perhaps the shoddy penmanship is more of a reflection that he didn't care about the Shanshu any longer. Not in a depressing way, but rather that he realized Connor was his Shanshu. Wouldn't it be worth living forever if he could watch (and watch over) Connor and his descendants? This: Seems to point in that direction. Wonderful insights, Shelly! Please feel free to join us on the main board!
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Post by Karen on Jul 16, 2004 8:26:19 GMT -5
I am new to the site, but there is something I have been thinking about since the final episode. Did Angel REALLY sign away his Shanshu rights? There was such a point made of showing him signing the contact in blood, but his signature was totally illegible. Then, there was a big point he made when offering to help Connor with his resume...he said "I have beautiful penmanship..." or something to that effect. So, not knowing how legal contracts work, was that his signature and is it valid or was he trying to "go along" without really doing so. Maybe some of the lawyers in the group can answer this one. Am I all wet here or am I on to something? I'd really like to know. Great review, by the way... I think you are definitely on to something; there was quite a bit of debate on the main board here about whether or not he really signed this away. But perhaps the shoddy penmanship is more of a reflection that he didn't care about the Shanshu any longer. Not in a depressing way, but rather that he realized Connor was his Shanshu. Wouldn't it be worth living forever if he could watch (and watch over) Connor and his descendants? This: Seems to point in that direction. Wonderful insights, Shelly! Please feel free to join us on the main board! Hi and welcome, Shelly! Like Erin has said, there has been some discussion about Angel's less than perfect signature on that document. I both agree with Erin that Angel was willing to sign away the Shanshu because he feels that it's been fulfilled through Connor, and disagree because I also think that his shoddy handwriting shows that he did care about the Shanshu. (Could I be any more contrary in one sentence?) What I mean is that it was hard for Angel to sign the Shanshu away, but he did it because it was the right thing to do. It was a sacrifice he was willing to make in order to achieve his goal of tripping up W&H. Whether or not it was really a legal document, maybe we'll find out in a TV movie. Can a prophecy really be signed away? Or was it just the Black Thorn's attempt to take away Angel's hope? I hope we find out some day. Shelly – if you want, you could check out the S’cubie thoughts at the time of the airing of “Not Fade Away”. scubiefan.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=oldparthome&thread=1087143450&action=display&start=30
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Post by Queen E on Jul 16, 2004 8:30:48 GMT -5
Hi and welcome, Shelly! Like Erin has said, there has been some discussion about Angel's less than perfect signature on that document. I both agree with Erin that Angel was willing to sign away the Shanshu because he feels that it's been fulfilled through Connor, and disagree because I also think that his shoddy handwriting shows that he did care about the Shanshu. (Could I be any more contrary in one sentence?) What I mean is that it was hard for Angel to sign the Shanshu away, but he did it because it was the right thing to do. It was a sacrifice he was willing to make in order to achieve his goal of tripping up W&H. Whether or not it was really a legal document, maybe we'll find out in a TV movie. Can a prophecy really be signed away? Or was it just the Black Thorn's attempt to take away Angel's hope? I hope we find out some day. Shelly – if you want, you could check out the S’cubie thoughts at the time of the airing of “Not Fade Away”. scubiefan.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=oldparthome&thread=1087143450&action=display&start=30Karen: You are the dude! You went back and found that? Mad kudos to you.
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Post by carlotta on Jul 16, 2004 15:02:41 GMT -5
Thanks for another terrific review, Nan. So sorry it’s the last one. Do you plan to write any more about season or series-wide themes now that the show is over? Aside from the loose ends you list, are there any other issues that are nagging at you? We love your writing; please don’t stop. Regarding Feigenbaum, in your Hole in the World review, you identify him as a chaos theorist who described a particular fractal. The members at Tea at the Ford expand on that and analyze at length how the shape of the Feigenbaum fractal seems to diagram the structure of the storytelling of AtS S5. They suggest that major plotlines and themes bifurcate into smaller plots, themes, and occurrences whose shape echoes that of the larger, original one. The shape they (and Feigenbaum) describe is roughly like a decision tree—a trunk with two branches, each of which then becomes a smaller trunk with two branches, and so on. They note that in Feigenbaum’s theory, each time the trunk splits, it leaves a hole in the center (between the two branches) where very few data points occur. They compare this structure to the actual events of S5 and earlier, and, surprisingly, it really kinda works. Here are links to the fractal discussion at Tea at the Ford: alcibiades/Windows onto a fractal plane www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=908#15264—has pictures Macha/the storybook princess and the Master of Chaos www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=908#15398Macha/eating pattern www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=908#15438“How did they get out of that [expletive deleted] alley?” For a cheery take on the answer to that question, there are several really good, hopeful stories at that same site that take place immediately following the final alley scene. The writers at that site love Spike too, so you don’t have to worry. Link for all stories is here www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=1190, and see especially macha’s "Repartee Account from the Final Battle" www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=1190#20607—funny! And no quote tags…
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jul 16, 2004 19:06:45 GMT -5
Great review, Nan. I have been dreading watching this episode because I inferred that your lack of review was due to the poor quality of the ending. I watched the episode last night and I mostly enjoyed the "perfect day" of the FG. It was insightful. My key concern was that you did not list what I perceived to be Angel's biggest failure as leader. He provoked the Senior Partners into bringing on a Apocolypse just so he could show them that he was not a puppet. Previously the Senior Partners were interested in maintaining the status quo and now thanks to Angel we see an Apocolyspse similar to the one that Buffy tries to avert in Season 5 (complete with dragon). This is just a grave error of judgement as far as I can see. Maybe it is because I am Australian and don't value free will as much as I should, but Angel's actions in fighting the Black Thorn without a plan for dealing with the forseen fall-out from the Senior Partners is just mind-boggling: it makes no sense to sacrifice the world as we know it just make a gesture. It is also unlike Angel to willingly undertake battles that he cannot win. It reminds me of Spike. It was also disconcerting that all the human heroes were mortally wounded. To me it looked like that JW was planning to cut his "star" budget in season 6 by having fewer main characters (just Angel, Spike and Illyria). PS I realise that the dragon may be just there for the symbolism of Angel fighting it (St George-style), but I was not overly enamoured with it's presence: it was too season 5 Buffy. Hi, Kerrie. In general, I agree with you: on the board, Angel's strategy has (as I recall) become known as BSP: the Big, Supid Plan. But I find many of Buffy's "plans" just as inadequate and lame, even though producing results less cataclysmic than this. My impression is that Angel wants to make Evil "hurt," and thinks that destroying their primary agents on this plane will do that. I don't think he expects any general Armageddon to arise out of this--he thinks all the fallout will come down on the Fang Gang personally, not the world at large. He expects them all to die. I don't know if that's realistic or not--I don't actually *see* an Armageddon in the demonic forces attacking them in the alley--it's certainly less general destruction than the sun going out, vamps snacking on the citizenry en masse, and fire falling from the sky in Season 4 under the influence of The Beast. What makes you assume it's a general apocalypse, aside from Tim Minear's comments (wasn't it TM?) about what would have gone on in Season 6? That's not what we actually see in "Not Fade Away," and that's all I'm dealing with here. Anyway, nice to hear from you.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jul 16, 2004 19:11:18 GMT -5
I am new to the site, but there is something I have been thinking about since the final episode. Did Angel REALLY sign away his Shanshu rights? There was such a point made of showing him signing the contact in blood, but his signature was totally illegible. Then, there was a big point he made when offering to help Connor with his resume...he said "I have beautiful penmanship..." or something to that effect. So, not knowing how legal contracts work, was that his signature and is it valid or was he trying to "go along" without really doing so. Maybe some of the lawyers in the group can answer this one. Am I all wet here or am I on to something? I'd really like to know. Great review, by the way... Hello, Shellyd. I know a point was made of Angel's good penmanship, and then the sloppy signature, but it was *his* blood (provably his DNA), and all the Circle of the Black Thorn witnessed his signing it. So I believe it's legally binding, as much as any signature in blood Angel gave while at Wolfram & Hart would be.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jul 16, 2004 19:18:23 GMT -5
Thanks for another terrific review, Nan. So sorry it’s the last one. Do you plan to write any more about season or series-wide themes now that the show is over? Aside from the loose ends you list, are there any other issues that are nagging at you? We love your writing; please don’t stop. Regarding Feigenbaum, in your Hole in the World review, you identify him as a chaos theorist who described a particular fractal. The members at Tea at the Ford expand on that and analyze at length how the shape of the Feigenbaum fractal seems to diagram the structure of the storytelling of AtS S5. They suggest that major plotlines and themes bifurcate into smaller plots, themes, and occurrences whose shape echoes that of the larger, original one. The shape they (and Feigenbaum) describe is roughly like a decision tree—a trunk with two branches, each of which then becomes a smaller trunk with two branches, and so on. They note that in Feigenbaum’s theory, each time the trunk splits, it leaves a hole in the center (between the two branches) where very few data points occur. They compare this structure to the actual events of S5 and earlier, and, surprisingly, it really kinda works. Here are links to the fractal discussion at Tea at the Ford: alcibiades/Windows onto a fractal plane www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=908#15264—has pictures Macha/the storybook princess and the Master of Chaos www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=908#15398Macha/eating pattern www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=908#15438“How did they get out of that [expletive deleted] alley?” For a cheery take on the answer to that question, there are several really good, hopeful stories at that same site that take place immediately following the final alley scene. The writers at that site love Spike too, so you don’t have to worry. Link for all stories is here www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=1190, and see especially macha’s "Repartee Account from the Final Battle" www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=1190#20607—funny! And no quote tags… I have the utmost respect for the authors/analyists/writers at Tea at the Ford. I'll look at their analysis. However, I think many readers would find it a tad esoteric in discussing Angel's final episode; and whatever subtext or structure the notion of Feigenbaum might entail was not manifested overtly in the episode (like allowing Fred to live again, for instance) in a way a viewer could notice...unless they were heavily into fractals and fractal theory. Part of the structure, perhaps, but not operative in the solution to any of the problems the episode set forth. That's a bit abstruse for the general viewer, so I don't think it's something appropriate for my rather middle-of-the-road, middle-brow review, that's intended to be accessible and (one hopes) interesting to *all* viewers of the episode. I appreciate your bringing it to my notice, however, and will gladly look at their analysis, fiction, and perhaps poetry when I'm a little less brain-dead than currently, having worked a 12+ hour day.
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Post by Kerrie on Jul 16, 2004 19:28:34 GMT -5
Hi, Kerrie. In general, I agree with you: on the board, Angel's strategy has (as I recall) become known as BSP: the Big, Supid Plan. But I find many of Buffy's "plans" just as inadequate and lame, even though producing results less cataclysmic than this. My impression is that Angel wants to make Evil "hurt," and thinks that destroying their primary agents on this plane will do that. I don't think he expects any general Armageddon to arise out of this--he thinks all the fallout will come down on the Fang Gang personally, not the world at large. He expects them all to die. I don't know if that's realistic or not--I don't actually *see* an Armageddon in the demonic forces attacking them in the alley--it's certainly less general destruction than the sun going out, vamps snacking on the citizenry en masse, and fire falling from the sky in Season 4 under the influence of The Beast. What makes you assume it's a general apocalypse, aside from Tim Minear's comments (wasn't it TM?) about what would have gone on in Season 6? That's not what we actually see in "Not Fade Away," and that's all I'm dealing with here. Anyway, nice to hear from you. Hi Nan. I thought the tens of thousands of demons and dragons was apocolyptic. I did not think they would come out defeat the remnants of the FG and then return to their normal activities. I thought they would come out and stay out (at night) and start feasting/take over the town. The dragon also suggested to me that the walls between alternate hell dimensions had come down. Given that this is Wolfram and Hart's plan to annhilate the FG, this seemed like a reasonable inference given that they live in an alternate dimension. Moreover, Angel's plan for self-sacrifice presupposes that he was doing nothing to protect LA. However, I suspect that you would have discussed this on the board already - I just haven't had time to read it. I don't know anything about TM's comments, I was just referring to what I saw in the episode and what I know about the Jossverse. As you rightly say, Angel's plan was just stupid regardless of what the outcome was.
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Post by carlotta on Jul 17, 2004 10:21:14 GMT -5
Hi, Nan.
Yes, I agree with you that fractals have no place in your review. And I also agree that NFA and the rest of AtS S5 can be understood perfectly well without any lengthy exploration of fractal analysis (although it really is kind of neat-o if you like that kind of thing). I was just responding to your question, “What was all that business about Feigenbaum?” which, based on your response, I guess you meant rhetorically or even humorously. Only I, in my earnest geekiness, took the question literally.
The post-alley-scene short stories at Tea at the Ford are not esoteric (although the episode analysis at that site assuredly is). The stories are pure entertainment—they’re funny and touching and best of all, they imagine a hopeful aftermath to that final battle. They cheered me up and got me thinking, just like your reviews always do, Nan.
Twelve-hour workdays? That must really suck.
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