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Post by Rob on Jan 26, 2004 16:52:01 GMT -5
rob- I like your comparison of the dynamic between Buffy/Faith and Angel/Spike- I had never thought of that- people have to be able to see themselves as unique- Buffy and Angel had their "individuality" handed to them( Anya complained ina sniping way inSeason 7 about that very thing) and although they struggled with their destiny- they also derived comfort from the fact that it was their singularity that distingushed them- Having to fight to maintain one's equanimity in the face of "copycats"( Are you 12 asked Buffy exasperatedly when Angel complains that Spike has stolenhis thunder) is a difficult and lacerating task. Buffy had to face it definitively in Season 7 and she graciously shared her power- finally comprehending that it was not a diminishment but an enhancing she demonstrated donning the mantle of responsibility often means enlarging one's power base by accepting and admitting the power of other individuals. Nowit is Angel's turn- ellie Most importantly....Buffy, at one time, attached more than a little of her own self-worth to being "special." She was trapped in her own personal "Catch-22": She bemoaned the fact that she was, to some degree, inherently alone...but she also LIKED that on some level. By the end of Season 7 she grew up enough to recognize the fact that sharing that power meant gaining a measure of freedom. Once all those Slayers were activated, Buffy could start evaluating who she was apart from what she'd latched on to since the age of 15. Or, in her words, to bake. *********************************** Lady Di: The critical difference between Kendra and Faith was the level of threat. Kendra had no inclination to establish any sort of relationship with the Scoobs. Giles and Xander actually intimidated her simply because they were male. It was a lot easier for Buffy to accept someone so socially inept. There was a clearly defined "pecking order" in Buffy's mind...so she could be more gracious about it all. Faith, on the other hand, was magnetic, engaging and sexy. People gravitated to her immediately...and Buffy didn't like THAT one little bit. Someone was treading a little too much on her "special" territory...while Faith, on the other hand, always felt the outsider. She had to live alone in that fleabag hotel, for example...apparently no one thought to take her in, which never made sense to me, but I digress... Buffy was the rarest of Slayers in that she had the immense good fortune to find regular people who loved her and fought by her side. Faith had no such benefits...she pretty much had to go it alone at the beginning. So, both Slayers saw each other as rivals, for very different reasons. Replace Faith with Angel....then replace Buffy with Spike. The scenarios are different in certain ways, but the underlying resentments are the same. It literally took YEARS for Buffy and Faith to come to a mutual understanding, and that required the Scooby Gang's implosion. I get this feeling the Fang Gang might just have to do the same before the current season is finished.
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Post by makd on Jan 26, 2004 19:11:46 GMT -5
makd - interesting review. Love the suggestions for musical accompaniment (sp?). OTOH, I've so totally run out of patience with Angel. I really used to like him, and I was hoping to like him again. Instead, I find his behavior appalling. Not just his behavior towards Spike, either. As for stress, I feel it's way too easy to make excuses for Angel. You wanna talk about loss? Spike lost everything in making his big glorious sacrifice. The only way he could make the save was by letting go. He was ready to do that, and (supposedly) Angel was ready to change W&H. Angel knew taking over W&H wasn't gonna be like tiptoe-ing thru the tulips. Angel is allowing his insecurities to get the better of him and he's blaming Spike for his problems. Spike is not a problem, or a source of problems (beyond minor annoyance)! Eve may be evil, but she's right in saying that Angel needs to take a good long look at himself. Far as I'm concerned, Angel needs to get over himself in a big, fat hurry. He is not now, nor has he ever been, the only one working for good! Hope you enjoyed the music with the review! I think it makes it more fun, IMO. On Angel: Lady Di, I love you, but you gotta cut The Big Man some slack. {}{} Go easy on him....It'll get better. He has to hit bottom before he'll start to rise. He's lost; he doesn't know where to turn. I mean: Who can he talk to? Is there a vampire corollary to Soprano's Shrink? Last time I checked, vampires don't have the aegis of the confessional. He's isolated himself and separated himself from his friends and his family (Spike). He's as trapped and alone as he was when he was in that water-logged coffin! And the reason is the same: Connor. There's a good reason Connor was called The Destroyer. Shortly before my Buffy addiction got going full blast, there were some personal problems I was experiencing. One of the pieces of wisdom someone I love shared with me was to love this person (who was causing me pain) freely, forgive the hurt, and get the pain behind me. You know, when I heard Buffy say that the original slayer told her, "Love. Give. Forgive.", I almost fell out of the comfy chair. I could have sworn the words were written by my friend. And it's such good advice. That's not just good advice for Buffy. It's good advice for all of us. You also said: Angel has to try harder w/o being as "evolved" as Spike. Angel is weaker overall (IMO)". Yes; this doesn't excuse him; it explains why it's so easy for him to fall. And hey? It's a TV show, so.... {}{}
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Post by makd on Jan 26, 2004 19:14:40 GMT -5
Makd, I've been reading through the comments and I'm happy that many of them include praise and appreciation of your fine review. This was a difficult episode to sort out and, I think, an important episode for leading into further developments. It's a kind of statement about where the principal players stand now...in their own estimation. You did an excellent and elegant job of (1) sorting things out and (2) giving your take and interpretation of what we all saw. That's the main virtue of these guest reviews--presenting a thought-out, coherent, independent analysis of the episode apart from the give-and-take of board discussion. You, and the guest reviewers who preceded you, have set a high standard for those who follow to emulate. And your review was just...plain...FUN. That's always a plus. Thanks, Rob. High praise from a writer whose work I admire. Thank YOU.
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Post by makd on Jan 26, 2004 19:16:58 GMT -5
Makd, I've been reading through the comments and I'm happy that many of them include praise and appreciation of your fine review. This was a difficult episode to sort out and, I think, an important episode for leading into further developments. It's a kind of statement about where the principal players stand now...in their own estimation. You did an excellent and elegant job of (1) sorting things out and (2) giving your take and interpretation of what we all saw. That's the main virtue of these guest reviews--presenting a thought-out, coherent, independent analysis of the episode apart from the give-and-take of board discussion. You, and the guest reviewers who preceded you, have set a high standard for those who follow to emulate. And your review was just...plain...FUN. That's always a plus. Nan High praise from a writer whose work I admire! Thank YOU so much. Gee, with all this praise, I think I'll go buy a larger hat!
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Post by KAB on Jan 27, 2004 1:03:36 GMT -5
Hello!
I’m new to both Angel (having started this year because of Spike’s coming over from Buffy) and this list, but I’ve quickly become hooked (for more than one reason.)
After surfing the Web for Angel sites, this seems like the one that will best fit in with my style of commenting. (And hopefully will bring me feedback, which I’m looking for.)
So, with little ado (after saying I’ve read several reviews on this list which I found highly scintillating), I’d like to post my comments on Soul Purpose. (And I hope this is the right spot to post. I’m not quite sure yet how all your different lists work.)
Anyway, this episode seemed to confirm my feeling that none of the gang are really very comfortable at Wolfram and Hart, or very happy about what they’re doing there.
Admittedly, I’m only through Five by Five in Season 1 (watching in syndication), and have only seen bits and pieces from Seasons 3-4 (None from 2). But it seems like then, they were only unhappy when the bad guys were winning. Otherwise, they felt good about “helping the helpless.”
I don’t think they’re doing that at Wolfram and Hart, and I think they know that.
Angel certainly, not only this episode but others, doesn’t seem at all pleased with what he’s doing these days. (And yes, I know he tends to be broody all the time, but he seems even more so.)
I think Fred may be happy with her new lab, but she’s gotta turn in paperwork (this ep) and is working way too much. (Hell Bound, and yes, I know a lot of that had to do w/trying to recorporealize Spike.)
Lorne may be having fun being an agent (and since I know none of his history, I can’t say for sure), but Life of the Party also showed he’s working way too much.
From Conviction, Gunn hasn’t seemed 100% sure about what was done to him, and Wes, well, I have to admit he’s looking better (if you’re not into scruffy, as I am <g>) but the bit with him and Gunn trying to decide how to take out the warlock — I just don’t see that happening at Angel Investigations.
Several scenes bore out that ambivalence, at least for me.
When Wes and Gunn went down to see Spike in his new apartment. Wes: “We’re getting reports of a vigilante matches your description.” Spike: “Yes, that’s what you people do, isn’t it? You get reports. You sign checks. You read memos. (Raises his beer bottle in toast.) Here’s to the corporate teat.”
Then they ask him to join them. Wes: “If you want to save the world, we’ve got the resources to help you do it.” Spike: “No offense, Mr. Vadar, but I’ve got no itch to join the evil empire.” Gunn: “It’s different. You know it. We’ve changed things.” Spike: “Look. I told Angel and I’ll tell you. A place like that doesn’t change. Not from the inside, not from the out. Sign on there, it changes you. Puts things in your head. (Looks at Gunn) Spins the compass needle around so you can’t cross the street without tripping the proverbial old lady and stepping on her glasses. And it’s not like I wasn’t there, gents. Like I wasn’t watching you. I had to haunt the damn place, remember?” Gunn: Things aren’t that cut and dried, Spike. We’re making a difference. We’re just playing by a new set of rules.” Spike: “And so what? You want me to put on a suit, come play with you? Wes: “Something like that.” Spike: “I can’t believe Angel would sign off on that. Unless ... He doesn’t know you’re here, does he? Hedging our bets, are we boys?” Gunn: “That’s not how it is.” Spike: “And the compass needle keeps spinning. And the world gets murkier and murkier.”
Then, later in Gunn’s office: Fred: “Hey, did you talk to Spike?” Wes: “We did.” Fred: “What’d he say?” Gunn: “Oh, you know, stuff. Fred: “Like what?” Wes: “Apparently we’re not good enough for him.” Gunn: “Thinks we sold out.” Fred: “We didn’t sell out. We’re changing the system from the inside.” Gunn: “You know, when you say it out loud, it sounds really naive.”
And finally, Eve’s closing comments: Eve: “So things aren’t going your way, and you’re looking for someone outside your little circle to blame. Here’s a thought. Maybe you should like looking inward. Unless you don’t like what you see.”
These people aren’t doing what they’re best at, and I think they know it.
As to Spike, he certainly doesn’t seem very comfortable being a hero. Aside from his wisecracks, he just seems out of place trying to fill Angel’s shoes.
Yes, I’ve seen City of and immediately recognized what Lindsay was trying to do for whatever reason. And even though I got to know Doyle after the fact, I’ve rewatched his episodes and got to like him. So I was very surprised when Lindsay used his name.
Now, I know Spike only met Doyle once, and I don’t think he even knew his name. So, while I agree with other commentators that Spike’s not stupid (by any means), I think eventually he and Angel will be verbally sparring (has to be Angel, since no one else is left who knew Doyle), and the name will come out, and one or the other will make a connection.
Depending, of course, on how long Spike is willing to go along with Lindsay’s games.
And that brings me to another question/comment/analysis.
***SPOILER REMOVED**** Obviously, the Lindsay/Eve story, but I can’t see the Shanshu prophecy being resolved (unless it turns out to be false, and I haven’t seen To Shansu in LA) and deciding between Angel and Spike as to who’s the good guy (as far as I’m concerned, they both are) also seems to me undoable. I think somehow they’ve got to declare an uneasy alliance. (Course remember, I got into Angel because I’m a Spike fan <g>.)
But what if the Angel gang leaves Wolfram and Hart and goes back to doing what they do best on their own: helping the helpless?
I’m wondering if that’s not the way all this could be leading.
Then, there’s this, from an article on Zap2it TV about Alexis and Alyson:
“Over the course of “Angel,” Wesley has gone from a rule-quoting killjoy to a grim demon-hunter with enough inner demons to staff a haunted house on Halloween. Outwardly, his old-school-tie look gradually was supplanted by a scruffier roughness. But in recent episodes, it seems that Wesley has found his razor once again.
***SPOILER REMOVED****
They’ve got some cool ideas, which I hope they’ll be able to work in this season.”
So, I’m wondering what’s up for Wesley? Both this year and in the long run.
Anyway, as will be the case with me, this is long, but I’d love to hear your comments, pro or con, on my thoughts.
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Post by Guest ellie on Jan 27, 2004 1:36:10 GMT -5
kab -(karen- right?)
welcome to our board- I definitely agree with you - this is the bestest board-
I was just scrolling through- so I did not bother to sign
in just wanted to gather you to our collective bosom-
interesting comments about the current disorientation of our Team Angel-
like Spike pointed out- spinning compass makes it hard to find, let alone assist the victims/helpless-whom it is thier appointed duty to rescue-
even those in their own little enclave 1.Spike 2.Angel 3.Harmony 4. Gunn 5.Wes 6.Cordelia
and probably even Lorne now that I think of it- ellie
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 27, 2004 5:57:33 GMT -5
Hello! I’m new to both Angel (having started this year because of Spike’s coming over from Buffy) and this list, but I’ve quickly become hooked (for more than one reason.) After surfing the Web for Angel sites, this seems like the one that will best fit in with my style of commenting. (And hopefully will bring me feedback, which I’m looking for.) So, with little ado (after saying I’ve read several reviews on this list which I found highly scintillating), I’d like to post my comments on Soul Purpose. (And I hope this is the right spot to post. I’m not quite sure yet how all your different lists work.) Anyway, this episode seemed to confirm my feeling that none of the gang are really very comfortable at Wolfram and Hart, or very happy about what they’re doing there. <snip> And that brings me to another question/comment/analysis. ***spoiler removed*** Obviously, the Lindsay/Eve story, but I can’t see the Shanshu prophecy being resolved (unless it turns out to be false, and I haven’t seen To Shansu in LA) and deciding between Angel and Spike as to who’s the good guy (as far as I’m concerned, they both are) also seems to me undoable. I think somehow they’ve got to declare an uneasy alliance. (Course remember, I got into Angel because I’m a Spike fan <g>.) But what if the Angel gang leaves Wolfram and Hart and goes back to doing what they do best on their own: helping the helpless? I’m wondering if that’s not the way all this could be leading. Then, there’s this, from an article on Zap2it TV about Alexis and Alyson: “Over the course of “Angel,” Wesley has gone from a rule-quoting killjoy to a grim demon-hunter with enough inner demons to staff a haunted house on Halloween. Outwardly, his old-school-tie look gradually was supplanted by a scruffier roughness. But in recent episodes, it seems that Wesley has found his razor once again. **spoiler removed** They’ve got some cool ideas, which I hope they’ll be able to work in this season.” So, I’m wondering what’s up for Wesley? Both this year and in the long run. Anyway, as will be the case with me, this is long, but I’d love to hear your comments, pro or con, on my thoughts. I echo Ellie's welcome, KAB. Your comments are thoughtful and well reasoned, and any Spike fan is always welcome here! Ellie and I both invite you to snoop by the Main board (see Forum Jump, below) and join in the S'cubies' ongoing discussion (always the highest numbered Part, at the top of the list). What I (and others) suspect is coming is the unraveling of the Connor mindwipe, in which Angel has done to the Fang Gang even worse than Willow ever did to the Scoobies. Angel has brought off the equilvalent of the creation of Dawn, the price of which was robbing his friends/associates of all memories connected to Connor, which includes the personal growth Wesley accomplished in that time, most of his relationship with Lilah, et al. Part of the price was also Angel's present role with Wolfram & Hart...which is gradually destroying everybody by leeching out their sense of purpose and personal validity. The blowup when the mindwipe is finally known and understood by the FG is likely to be considerable and challenge or destroy their trust in Angel. And now Spike is here, with his own agenda, apart from the mindwipe. So I suspect the implosion of the FG, and a new relationship with Spike for Angel, is what this season is building toward. We'll all see if that proves to be the case.
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Post by makd on Jan 27, 2004 10:36:31 GMT -5
Hello! I’m new to both Angel (having started this year because of Spike’s coming over from Buffy) and this list, but I’ve quickly become hooked (for more than one reason.) Okay, I told TLV I would NEVER do this again, and here I am....Oops! I've done it again!! :- So, sorry about the bold inserts, but I can't think of a more time-efficient way to respond to your generous posting. Thanks for taking the time to read the reviews and to post your comments. It's wonderful to see so much love for the TV show and the characters we love.
First, KAB: Welcome to S3! As Ellie said, we are the bestest board. And I have the research to prove it! After surfing the Web for Angel sites, this seems like the one that will best fit in with my style of commenting. (And hopefully will bring me feedback, which I’m looking for.) I'm confident in saying that we will give you feedback. We're a diverse lot, and, while we sometimes disagree (Who am I kidding; we love to disagree!), we're a fairly tolerant lot. So, with little ado (after saying I’ve read several reviews on this list which I found highly scintillating), I’d like to post my comments on Soul Purpose. (And I hope this is the right spot to post. I’m not quite sure yet how all your different lists work.) Anyway, this episode seemed to confirm my feeling that none of the gang are really very comfortable at Wolfram and Hart, or very happy about what they’re doing there. Admittedly, I’m only through Five by Five in Season 1 (watching in syndication), and have only seen bits and pieces from Seasons 3-4 (None from 2). But it seems like then, they were only unhappy when the bad guys were winning. Otherwise, they felt good about “helping the helpless.” Right there with you, Scooter. They're not in Kansas anymore, and they don't have sparkly shoes to find their way back. (and by the way, this isn't the FIRST time we've discussed shoes this season on Angel. Guess they are not only all about the Shanshu this year, but about shoes as a leitmotif.) I don’t think they’re doing that at Wolfram and Hart, and I think they know that. Angel certainly, not only this episode but others, doesn’t seem at all pleased with what he’s doing these days. (And yes, I know he tends to be broody all the time, but he seems even more so.) I think Fred may be happy with her new lab, but she’s gotta turn in paperwork (this ep) and is working way too much. (Hell Bound, and yes, I know a lot of that had to do w/trying to recorporealize Spike.) Lorne may be having fun being an agent (and since I know none of his history, I can’t say for sure), but Life of the Party also showed he’s working way too much. From Conviction, Gunn hasn’t seemed 100% sure about what was done to him, and Wes, well, I have to admit he’s looking better (if you’re not into scruffy, as I am <g>) but the bit with him and Gunn trying to decide how to take out the warlock — I just don’t see that happening at Angel Investigations. Several scenes bore out that ambivalence, at least for me. When Wes and Gunn went down to see Spike in his new apartment. Wes: “We’re getting reports of a vigilante matches your description.” Spike: “Yes, that’s what you people do, isn’t it? You get reports. You sign checks. You read memos. (Raises his beer bottle in toast.) Here’s to the corporate teat.” Then they ask him to join them. Wes: “If you want to save the world, we’ve got the resources to help you do it.” Spike: “No offense, Mr. Vadar, but I’ve got no itch to join the evil empire.” Gunn: “It’s different. You know it. We’ve changed things.” Spike: “Look. I told Angel and I’ll tell you. A place like that doesn’t change. Not from the inside, not from the out. Sign on there, it changes you. Puts things in your head. (Looks at Gunn) Spins the compass needle around so you can’t cross the street without tripping the proverbial old lady and stepping on her glasses. And it’s not like I wasn’t there, gents. Like I wasn’t watching you. I had to haunt the damn place, remember?” Gunn: Things aren’t that cut and dried, Spike. We’re making a difference. We’re just playing by a new set of rules.” Spike: “And so what? You want me to put on a suit, come play with you? Wes: “Something like that.” Spike: “I can’t believe Angel would sign off on that. Unless ... He doesn’t know you’re here, does he? Hedging our bets, are we boys?” Gunn: “That’s not how it is.” Spike: “And the compass needle keeps spinning. And the world gets murkier and murkier.” Then, later in Gunn’s office: Fred: “Hey, did you talk to Spike?” Wes: “We did.” Fred: “What’d he say?” Gunn: “Oh, you know, stuff. Fred: “Like what?” Wes: “Apparently we’re not good enough for him.” Gunn: “Thinks we sold out.” Fred: “We didn’t sell out. We’re changing the system from the inside.” Gunn: “You know, when you say it out loud, it sounds really naive.” And finally, Eve’s closing comments: Eve: “So things aren’t going your way, and you’re looking for someone outside your little circle to blame. Here’s a thought. Maybe you should like looking inward. Unless you don’t like what you see.” These people aren’t doing what they’re best at, and I think they know it. As to Spike, he certainly doesn’t seem very comfortable being a hero. Aside from his wisecracks, he just seems out of place trying to fill Angel’s shoes. ITA. And, notice? we're back to shoes. Man, it's getting to be all about the feet. (Whoa. Hope Joss Whedon or David Fury don't have shoe fetishes. )Yes, I’ve seen City of and immediately recognized what Lindsay was trying to do for whatever reason. And even though I got to know Doyle after the fact, I’ve rewatched his episodes and got to like him. So I was very surprised when Lindsay used his name. Now, I know Spike only met Doyle once, and I don’t think he even knew his name. So, while I agree with other commentators that Spike’s not stupid (by any means), I think eventually he and Angel will be verbally sparring (has to be Angel, since no one else is left who knew Doyle), and the name will come out, and one or the other will make a connection. Depending, of course, on how long Spike is willing to go along with Lindsay’s games. Good comments, and it appears we are on the same page. And that brings me to another question/comment/analysis. *** SPOILER REMOVED***** Obviously, the Lindsay/Eve story, but I can’t see the Shanshu prophecy being resolved (unless it turns out to be false, and I haven’t seen To Shansu in LA) and deciding between Angel and Spike as to who’s the good guy (as far as I’m concerned, they both are) also seems to me undoable. I think somehow they’ve got to declare an uneasy alliance. (Course remember, I got into Angel because I’m a Spike fan <g>.) But what if the Angel gang leaves Wolfram and Hart and goes back to doing what they do best on their own: helping the helpless? I’m wondering if that’s not the way all this could be leading. Then, there’s this, from an article on Zap2it TV about Alexis and Alyson: “Over the course of “Angel,” Wesley has gone from a rule-quoting killjoy to a grim demon-hunter with enough inner demons to staff a haunted house on Halloween. Outwardly, his old-school-tie look gradually was supplanted by a scruffier roughness. But in recent episodes, it seems that Wesley has found his razor once again. “***SPOILER REMOVED***** They’ve got some cool ideas, which I hope they’ll be able to work in this season.” So, I’m wondering what’s up for Wesley? Both this year and in the long run. Anyway, as will be the case with me, this is long, but I’d love to hear your comments, pro or con, on my thoughts. As far as the end arc/cliff hanger goes, no one outside of ME knows what's gonna happen. One thing we know; it's gonna be good! They are getting all warmed up for a great end-of-season arc.
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Post by KAB on Jan 27, 2004 11:32:42 GMT -5
Thanks for all the warms welcomes from everyone, and I can definitely see I made the right decision to get on this board. These are the kinds of comments/analyses I was looking for. (Now, if I can only figure out how to work this board. I’m not very computer literate and I use an iBook with an old Netscape system. This is the second time I’m writing this post, as it disappeared while I was trying to preview it. :-(. And how the heck does the bolding/color/etc. work?)
In response to my concerns about where the season is heading, Nan wrote:
*** What I (and others) suspect is coming is the unraveling of the Connor mindwipe, in which Angel has done to the Fang Gang even worse than Willow ever did to the Scoobies. Angel has brought off the equivalent of the creation of Dawn, the price of which was robbing his friends/associates of all memories connected to Connor, which includes the personal growth Wesley accomplished in that time, most of his relationship with Lilah, et al. Part of the price was also Angel’s present role with Wolfram & Hart...which is gradually destroying everybody by leeching out their sense of purpose and personal validity. The blowup when the mindwipe is finally known and understood by the FG is likely to be considerable and challenge or destroy their trust in Angel. And now Spike is here, with his own agenda, apart from the mindwipe. So I suspect the implosion of the FG, and a new relationship with Spike for Angel, is what this season is building toward. We'll all see if that proves to be the case. ***
OK, that makes some things a little clearer to me. Here in middle-of-nowhere New Mexico, with satellite, the TNT Tuesday night repeats run against Judging Amy, so I’ve only seen Salvage and Orpheus, and tonight, with Amy in repeats, I’ll see Players.
So the lead in to this season is a little murky.
** spoiler removed ***
And, this “the price of which was robbing his friends/associates of all memories connected to Connor, which includes the personal growth Wesley accomplished in that time, most of his relationship with Lilah, et al,” explains a bit the fact it seems that this season, Wes isn’t quite the same person he was in the few Season 3 and 4 shows I’ve seen. (Although, on Lineage, didn’t he mention to his “father” that he had to cut off his girlfriend’s head? How would he know that if his memories of Lilah had been wiped? Will I eventually find out how many memories were wiped, or is that something you folks are just assuming?)
Also, was the entire Fred/Gunn relationship wiped? I just finished watching Double or Nothing, and it seems odd to me that whole relationship has just gone “poof!”
And it’s nice to see, even with my background deficit, that my analysis is somewhat similar to you folks.
This: “ Part of the price was also Ange’'s present role with Wolfram & Hart...which is gradually destroying everybody by leeching out their sense of purpose and personal validity” is a wonderful analysis. Puts it much in perspective.
Anyway, I don’t know whether I’m at a plus or minus watching the way I’m doing.
On the one hand, I get to watch Angel six days a week <g>, on the other hand, I’m not sure how much I’m missing by playing catch up.
But I look forward to reading all you folks' analyses.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 27, 2004 12:15:58 GMT -5
Thanks for all the warms welcomes from everyone, and I can definitely see I made the right decision to get on this board. These are the kinds of comments/analyses I was looking for. (Now, if I can only figure out how to work this board. . Hey KAB - I'm one of the techs here and I've sent you an IM - if you look at the top of the board, you'll see you have one (or more) personal messages. Click that red link and you can go read them and reply if you wish. Hope you will, so I'll know you got it! Welcome.
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makd on lunch break
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Post by makd on lunch break on Jan 27, 2004 14:23:07 GMT -5
Hi, KAB Don't feel bad about catch-up with Angel. 1 It's Angel, so what's not of the good there 2 I didn't watch Angel until Spike's arrival. Oh, I had tried, but the labyrinthine plot kept me away. Then, when I realized that I'd be watching to keep my Spike-fix, I started watching the re-runs on TNT daily, Tuesday night (YAY!), and UPN's Sunday re-runs (immediately after Buffy). so, I caught up - and am still catching up - as time permits. 3 Keep posting, and ignore those people on the board who number their answers, yeah?
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Post by Karen on Jan 28, 2004 8:23:35 GMT -5
Can I just say that RL just sucks sometime. All I want to do is play with the S'cubies. What a great discussion you all have been having!!
Makd- what can I say? Just a great review! I sometimes have trouble expressing my praise and gratitude to everyone's reviews, because, well - it's just a television show, right? Sometimes I feel so shallow putting so much energy and thought into the jossverse. But I've always been interested in "the meaning of life", so, well, here I am.
Can I also say, without sounding insincere, that reading the reviews and the discussions are just as, and sometimes more, enjoyable as watching the show itself? And you've got my thoughts going in so many directions that it's hard for me to focus. But then again, your review did help me to focus - after I got through salivating over all the candy images.
Thanks for saying I provided you with sweet food for thought. It warmed me to my toes to be included. A funny thing about it, though, is then I get to thinking - 'gee, what did I say or do to deserve that recognition?' And can I ever live up to whatever it was, or will I just disappoint and sound like a blathering fool - and, heavens forbid, - get laughed at and ridiculed? But then I realize, that that never stopped me before. In my youth, I might have been paralized with fear to offer another thought. Not so much now. Hee, hee - don't care, well, that's a big fat lie. I care a lot. But it doesn't stop me anymore from putting myself out there.
So enough about me - what does that all have to do with Angel, you might ask?
You know, it's what's deep inside us that informs all we do. Angel is struggling right now with his purpose - again it seems. You'd think he'd have gotten it right by now. *We* all have, haven't we? I don't know about you, but I learn a new lesson, and sometimes relearn an old one everyday. I admire Angel's perserverance to get it right.
Angel is having serious doubts and feelings of loss of control. Deep inside he doesn't feel he deserves the Shanshu. Doesn't feel he deserves the girl. Or being the boss. He's also struggling with the loss of his freedom - W&H's chains - they bind and chafe. He feels like the helpless one now. The one needing to be saved. He's feeling the loss of his purpose in life, too. That was Connor for a time - he brought him such great joy. Not so much joy in Angel's life right now and he can't even lose himself in his work, because he doesn't feel needed there either. He feels empty.
All I can say is that his father has really done a number on him. He doesn't feel that he'll "never amount to anything". That he'll end up pushing a mailcart.
How in the world is he going to get through this? Will he find a purpose in his anger towards Eve? Or will that work against him also?
Ok, I'm starting to ask questions, and that's a sign I should stop typing!
One more thing - Wesley. Wesley also has his father issues. I think he sees himself as the weak one on the team. That's why he thinks that dear old cybor-dad was sent to infiltrate the gang. His dad, like Angel's, was also very abusive - and that information was used to fuel Wesley's feelings of self-doubt. Now, he is overcompensating and taking over control from Angel - ro prove himself? To win the girl?
If the cyborgs were Lindsay's doing also, he must have done alot of reseach into both Angel's and Wesley's backgrounds. Something tells me that Fred and Gunn are in for a rough ride. Although, Fred will be the hardest to mess with, because she's the most innocent and her parents seemed normal. I'm sure he'll find a way, though. Can't wait to see it.
And we can't forget about Spike. Lindsay has great plans for Spike. But Spike is not going to be as easy to jerk around, I hope. Although, it seems he's also taken a deal with Lindsay, like Angel has with W&H, he isn't as bound to it. He's trying to find a purpose, and is being used right now - willingly, it seems. He doesn't like being played - but he has been played and he knows it - when he and Angel were pitted against each other to race to the cup of perpetual torment. Will he realize in time the more subtle manipulation he is currently experiencing? Oops, there's that pesking questioning again.
God, I do go on, sometimes.
makd - thanks for stimulating my cerebral (sp?) cortex. ;D
Sorry, so late with my thoughts. I didn't mean to upset the flow of great insights!
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Post by ldelrossi on Jan 28, 2004 11:51:53 GMT -5
mkd - just wanted to add my kudos to your truly thought-provoking and fun review. I'm still digesting it and all of the comments. I haven't listened to the music yet either.
I loved your candy explanations and your interpretations of all of the metaphors, symbols, etc. in the dream sequences especially.
You are certainly a talented writer. I can't wait to hear your paper in Nashville.
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Post by Wendy on Jan 28, 2004 12:29:50 GMT -5
Makd, Great Review, followed by great posts in this section. I think this had to be the hardest episode to analyze so far this season, and I think you and Nan did a wonderful job and have given me so much more to think about. I agree. I thought David did a great job. Angel *does* know about the Professor Siedel murder. But he also knows that Gunn did the actual killing. In the following exchange from Calvary, Angelus indicates that he knew the professor was killed, and that they were both in on it, but Gunn gives him the final confirmation that it was he, not Fred, who did the actual killing. ANGELUS: At least you've got the love of a good woman. 'Til she dumps you for a guy with a bigger horizon.
GUNN: It's her life.
ANGELUS: Oh, wait—did I miss it? Did she already let you down easy? Cheer up, buddy. Not like we didn't see it coming. Especially after what happened to her old professor. (Gunn is surprised) Come on, even Angel's not that stupid. The way things changed between you two... the furtive looks, all that guilt. Mm. There's nothing like your first murder. Don't worry, I won't tell what our little girl did.
GUNN: She didn't—
ANGELUS: Yeah! (claps once) So, it was you—stepping up and being the man! Great catch, Linda. I hadn't thought about that. I knew we were suppose to "get" something from the scene when Spike snatched the beer away from Lindsey, I just didn't put it together. Thanks. Makd, I think you are right about Wesley. I have noticed him covering up what he's working on, too. I think you are right, that he suspects something, and isn't it ironic that Wes may once again be researching "The Father Will Kill the Son" prophecy, without consulting with Angel. I'm very interested in where they will go with the Wes and Angel relationship. As to the Fred Angel 'ship... I am wondering if you saw the episode late in 4th season, where Angel and Fred kiss? If not, here's the set up: They are running from Jasminites, when a group of people begin to approach them, they do the typical "let's kiss, so maybe no one will notice us" thing (you can do that in the sewers, but not in the initiative. ) From the episode Magic Bullet: (People walk by them, talking and laughing. Fred reaches up to Angel and kisses him. Angel puts his arm around her. A few moments later, they stop kissing.)
FRED: (whispering) You think they bought it?
ANGEL: (whispering) I did. I—I mean, I didn't hear anything. I believe that if Angel hadn't thought about kissing Fred before, I bet he has thought about it since, because he *bought* it, he felt something. When Fred is brought back from Pylea, Fred is quite taken with Angel. He is patient and gentle with her, (in fact, these scenes are some of my favorite "Angel being a sweety" scenes ) though he doesn't return her feelings at the time. Now Angel has had time to see what Fred is made of. She is trustworthy, (she's never betrayed Angel,) and she's brave, (she was the one to break Jasmine's spell over Angel) and she's strong (she did survive 5 years in Pylea). I believe Angel's admonishment to Wesley about taking Fred to an arms deal in Lineage was less about Angel worried that Fred can't take care of herself, and more about his worry that he can't loose someone else that he loves. I think I will join you at the pier restaurant and watch the ship sail in. And finally, I completely agree. I described him in a similar fashion as you did to my BuffyBuddy when I finally persuaded her to watch Angel. Being a huge Spike fan, I knew she would love Doyle. I guess that was mean of me, because I got her all caring for this character that I knew died early. Oh, well, we all had to endure the heartache, so should she. And we can add Doyle to the list of people Angel cares about, that are no longer with him. He took Doyle's death pretty hard. Which makes me wonder if that might have something to do with why Lindsey chose to use Doyle's name. (Doyle took his sacrificial leap in place of Angel... Spike got to the cup instead of Angel.) More reminders that Angel is loosing all the people he cares about, and may be loosing his role as champion.
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Post by makd on Jan 28, 2004 13:23:14 GMT -5
Can I just say that RL just sucks sometime. All I want to do is play with the S'cubies. What a great discussion you all have been having!! Makd- what can I say? Just a great review! I sometimes have trouble expressing my praise and gratitude to everyone's reviews, because, well - it's just a television show, right? Sometimes I feel so shallow putting so much energy and thought into the jossverse. But I've always been interested in "the meaning of life", so, well, here I am. Can I also say, without sounding insincere, that reading the reviews and the discussions are just as, and sometimes more, enjoyable as watching the show itself? And you've got my thoughts going in so many directions that it's hard for me to focus. But then again, your review did help me to focus - after I got through salivating over all the candy images. Thanks for saying I provided you with sweet food for thought. It warmed me to my toes to be included. A funny thing about it, though, is then I get to thinking - 'gee, what did I say or do to deserve that recognition?' And can I ever live up to whatever it was, or will I just disappoint and sound like a blathering fool - and, heavens forbid, - get laughed at and ridiculed? But then I realize, that that never stopped me before. In my youth, I might have been paralized with fear to offer another thought. Not so much now. Hee, hee - don't care, well, that's a big fat lie. I care a lot. But it doesn't stop me anymore from putting myself out there. Karen - thank you so much for the praise. As I told Nan earlier, I may have to buy a larger hat! It was certainly fun to write; a real challenge. The discussion after each episode is also,for me, as much fun as watching each episode. What a testimony to the writers, cast, crew, etc., who work to put together this fine show. I only wish as many people watched this as West Wing.
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