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Post by Nickim on Jan 8, 2004 13:42:22 GMT -5
According to Erikson, the issue for teens is identitiy. The issue for early 20s is relationships. The issue for late 20/early 30-somethings is parenthood/career. I will have to look up what is next as I have already posted that I think JW has touched on the latter stages even if he has not done with them (Buffy is still cookie-dough!). I know one of the final stages is reflection on life and either seeing it as worth-while or as missed opportunities. Realistically Buffy could travel down that little life stage especially if slayerhood does impede her potential to have a family of her own. Guess that explains why I still feel like I'm in my 20's. ;D Nicki, who will never get to the parenthood stage, unless it's a step-child
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Post by Kerrie on Jan 8, 2004 13:53:35 GMT -5
Guess that explains why I still feel like I'm in my 20's. ;D Nicki, who will never get to the parenthood stage, unless it's a step-child Hi Nicki, I finished off that post by listing the proper stages according to the text-book. I wouldn't get too excited by the thought that I had missed all the other stages if I was you. The only assumption that Erikson makes is that people form a relationship with someone, not that they have children.
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Post by Nickim on Jan 8, 2004 15:18:29 GMT -5
Hi Nicki, I finished off that post by listing the proper stages according to the text-book. I wouldn't get too excited by the thought that I had missed all the other stages if I was you. The only assumption that Erikson makes is that people form a relationship with someone, not that they have children. I'm still struggling with the relationship forming, at least one that's not just a friendship.
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Post by Kerrie on Jan 18, 2004 1:54:43 GMT -5
Pink Floyd’s “The Wall” and BtVS seasons 5 and 6 both describe suicidal feelings and depression. I thought, given the differences between the two, that it might be interesting to discuss the differences and similarities.
For those of you who have not seen “The Wall” it is about a rock-star, Pink, who is depressed about his relationship with his wife. He is alone in a hotel in LA and reflects on the events and fantasies that have made him feel so cut off from his own emotions and others. He identifies a number of factors that made him feel that way. Firstly and most importantly his father died in the war when he was a baby leaving to the care of his heart-broken mother who was not able to emotionally connect with him. Second, the education system did not nurture him. Third, he marries a woman who seems to care about him, but he has just realised has started having an affair. There seems to be no real friends although we see his manager.
There are obvious differences between Pink and Buffy: gender, age (30-something versus 20), citizenship (English versus American), time (1970s versus now) and occupation (rock-star versus Slayer). However, the similarities are striking.
Both Buffy and Pink’s fathers have gone out of their lives leaving an emotional void. Buffy’s father left later in Buffy’s life so she had a chance to know him and even to find a substitute in Giles. Pink was not so lucky and although he tried, inappropriately, to find father substitutes in strangers he was not successful. Moreover, unlike Joyce who could move on with her life, Pink’s mother still was sleeping with her husband’s corpse and could not move on. Like Buffy, Pink fretted that he was somehow to blame for his father’s absence that took the form of developing Hitler-like characteristics. It has been speculated that Hank’s absence from Buffy’s life meant that she would always fear that her boy friends would always leave her. Pink’s damage was profound because without a father figure he felt he could not learn how to communicate with women and that women were always controlling him and other men. Thus, Pink’s loss was more profound than Buffy’s although her loss was not small.
Pink’s mother and Buffy’s mother reacted very differently to the loss and that also affected their off-spring. Pink’s mother mourned her loss and alternated between smothering and neglecting Pink. Joyce has read all the books on child-rearing and whilst she makes mistakes she does not smother nor neglect Buffy because of her problems with Hank. Thus Buffy feels confident to choose her own boy-friends whilst Pink sings “Mamma’s gonna make all your nightmares come true. Mamma’s gonna put all her fears into you . . .Mamma’s gonna check out all your girl-friends for you. Mamma’s not gonna let anyone dirty get through”. To a large extent I think the difference between Joyce and Pink’s mother reflects the time and culture. Single motherhood and child-rearing are now comparatively well-researched phenomena so that single mothers are in a better position to help, not hinder, their off-spring. Pink blamed the loss of his father for his emotional problems, Buffy did not because he was not the major cause of them.
The second identified problem was education. Pink had a teacher/headmaster similar to Snyder. Pink sings that “there were certain teachers who would hurt the children anyway they could/ by pouring their derision upon anything we did”. Pink dreams of ending this oppression with a student rebellion, Buffy ends it by blowing up the school and the Principal being inadvertently eaten. Thus at Pink’s trial, the school-master is there with his strings once more being pulled by his “fat psychopathic wife” to punish Pink more for being artistic. The struggle to be his own person stays with Pink as a problem throughout his life. Buffy, with the psychological help of her mother and Giles, writes off Principal Snyder as an unpleasant bully whose role in her life will end with school. Thus, Principal Snyder does not affect Buffy’s feelings of depression or suicide at any point. Pink always doubts himself because of his school-master.
The third stage of building the wall around his emotions was his wife rejecting him His wife is the one true love of his life. Buffy has had more than one serious romantic relationship in her life. However, the things that Pink describes in his relationship are true of different aspects of Buffy’s relationships. Thus we see Pink not talking to his wife and he also sings “I need you babe, to put through the shredder in front of my friends . . . to beat to a pulp on a Saturday night”. The emotional shut-down is duplicated in Buffy’s relationship with Riley, but the physical and psychological abuse describes Buffy’s relationship with Spike. Thus in both The Wall and BtVS we see people taking out their depression on other willing victims. Once again Buffy was luckier than Pink – Spike was willing to put up with it indefinitely whilst Pink’s wife was not thus forcing Pink to accept his culpability.
It becomes apparent that Buffy has many of the same problems that Pink has: she feels numb and she is not connecting with people in an appropriate way. These are symptoms of depression. However, whilst they share the same potential triggers: absent father, poor educational system and romantic problems, Buffy has different trigger. Thus, in conclusion, analysing “The Wall” does not help in understanding “BtVS”. The question is then inverted: does “BtVS” help understand “The Wall”. I’ll discuss this in another post tomorrow.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jan 18, 2004 10:53:09 GMT -5
Kerrie, this is really good, and I look forward to the continuation of your discussion. I'm going to go think about it for a while.
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Post by ellie on Jan 18, 2004 12:25:15 GMT -5
Kerrie-
brillliant- I am looking forward to your continuation of this topic/contrast tomorrow-
The Wall is one of my favorites- I have just put the soundtrack on tolisten again-
My emotional response to your thesis is of overwhelming consent in terms of the music-the loss/alienation/anger/sexuality referenced by Pink Floyd could definitely score the entire seasons 5 &6 of Buffy.
I willhave to think of the other thematic parallels you discuss- I may have to rent the dvd to refresh my memory.
I will forever hear Nasty girls reverberate in my memory now when I think of Buffy in Season 6 ( and Faith anytime)
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Post by Karen on Jan 18, 2004 14:21:49 GMT -5
Interesting (once again, Spring, your great analysis stimulates interesting conversation!) stuff, Kerrie. I won't pretend that I understand it all.
When you said "Thus in both The Wall and BtVS we see people taking out their depression on other willing victims. Once again Buffy was luckier than Pink – Spike was willing to put up with it indefinitely whilst Pink’s wife was not thus forcing Pink to accept his culpability. did you mean that it is necessary for people dealing with depression to have someone in their lives that are willing to put up with indefinite abuse? Do people need others who are that sympathetic (enabling) in order to work through their dark moment? I'm not arguing with you, just trying to understand. Then, tough love wouldn't have worked for Buffy? Maybe I'm off-base with my question and your words just struck a nerve.
At what point do you think Buffy finally accepted her culpability and grew? And what was the trigger that enabled her to do this?
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Post by Kerrie on Jan 18, 2004 15:55:35 GMT -5
Interesting (once again, Spring, your great analysis stimulates interesting conversation!) stuff, Kerrie. I won't pretend that I understand it all. When you said " Thus in both The Wall and BtVS we see people taking out their depression on other willing victims. Once again Buffy was luckier than Pink – Spike was willing to put up with it indefinitely whilst Pink’s wife was not thus forcing Pink to accept his culpability.
did you mean that it is necessary for people dealing with depression to have someone in their lives that are willing to put up with indefinite abuse? Do people need others who are that sympathetic (enabling) in order to work through their dark moment? I'm not arguing with you, just trying to understand. Then, tough love wouldn't have worked for Buffy? Maybe I'm off-base with my question and your words just struck a nerve. At what point do you think Buffy finally accepted her culpability and grew? And what was the trigger that enabled her to do this? Oh that is an excellent question and I can see why you would ask it. Gee, reading it again I can say that it is an excellent question. I will have to think about it. I know I meant that Buffy was lucky that she got to end her destructive relationship with Spike when she was psychologically ready rather than being pre-empted by Spike before she was ready to deal with another blow, but beyond that I don't know . . . I suspect not. The more I think about this, the more I think I will be adressing this question when I write part 3 of this series of posts* where I discuss psychology in the Joss-verse compared with "The Wall". (*At this stage I am planning 4 posts. The first two are done or in progress and the third and fourth will be looking at psychology and feminism respectively. I hope you are interested and Spring doesn't mind.)
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Post by Kerrie on Jan 18, 2004 17:10:54 GMT -5
Kerrie, this is really good, and I look forward to the continuation of your discussion. I'm going to go think about it for a while. Thanks Anne and ellie. I hope you like the rest of the series of posts. Unfortunately it had to be a series because things wouldn't fit neatly into one short post with an appropriate heading.
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Post by Kerrie on Jan 18, 2004 17:51:42 GMT -5
Previously, it was suggested that whilst Pink and Buffy shared many of the same potential triggers, they did not trigger Buffy which raises questions about the universality of the said triggers. In this post we will be looking at whether Buffy’s triggers could be applied to understand Pink’s depression. The jury is still out to the sources of Buffy’s depression, but I will suggest that the four big sources are her role as a slayer, her Mom’s death and, in season 6, the alienation of her friends and the memory of a happier place.
Superficially it may see that Buffy, the vampire-slayer, and Pink, the rock-star, have dissimilar jobs. She provides an essential service whilst he just entertains people. However, there are some similarities. Both careers favour the young. Both have a responsibility to continue even when their heart is not in it, “The show must go on”. Both are leaders, even if they are in different fields and the leadership weighs heavily on them: Buffy does not know how to fight Glory and Pink does not know how to stop his fans from engaging in drunken riots whilst at his concerts. This all leads to the inevitable feelings of failure and a feeling that they are “playing a role”. It is interesting that both Buffy and Pink both use the same analogy that they are playing a part. Thus, depression for both Buffy and Pink may have arisen from being burnt out by their professional roles.
Almost everyone agrees that Joyce dying was a huge contributing factor to Buffy’s depression. As far as we know, Pink’s mother does not die. Therefore, superficially there is no similarity in their condition. However, Pink’s mother did not love him the way that Joyce loved Buffy. As far as “The Wall” is concerned, the first person to love Pink was his wife. She leaves him just like Joyce, the first person to love Buffy, leaves Buffy when she dies. Thus, it is not the nature of the relationship that determines the feeling of loss, but the loss itself that triggers depression. Riley leaving at about the same time exacerbated Buffy’s feelings of loss, but it was Joyce’s death that really knocked Buffy psychologically speaking. Pink’s loss of his wife and mother substitute is therefore comparable.
Buffy was depressed in season 5, but she was even more depressed in season 6. The difference was that in season 6 Buffy knew that if she tried to commit suicide her friends would bring her back. This serves to alienate Buffy from her friends in a very real way throughout most of season 6. She can no longer talk to them properly and Willow’s and Xander’s own personal problems also block communication. Thus, in season 6, Buffy was largely alone. Spike does not count because he was never classified as a friend before season 7. In “The Wall”, Pink has friends as a child, but we don’t see any when he is an adult. The idea is that he has lost contact with his friends. Thus, friends serve as a tie or buffer for this world that is largely absent for both Buffy and Pink.
“There was no pain, no fear, no doubt, til they pulled me out”, Buffy sang in OMWF. In season 6, Buffy’s depression was exacerbated by the memory of a happier place when she did not suffer. Likewise, we see in “The Wall” that Pink’s mind often wanders back to his child-hood when he was happier. The memory of the happier time/place does not make Buffy or Pink happier because it is too big a contrast and it creates a feeling that the happy time/place is finished in their lives: they will always be trapped in this miserable existence. Neither look forward to any future happy times. I am not sure whether this is a symptom or source of depression, so I will tentatively conclude that it is a bit of both: unchecked, non-replicable memories of happiness exacerbates feelings of depression.
In conclusion it seems that Buffy’s sources of depression all apply to Pink. Career burn-out, the loss of an important loved one, alienation from friends and memories of past happiness leads to depression. In the next post I will tentatively discuss why JW seemed to nail the sources of depression better than Pink Floyd.
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Post by Kerrie on Jan 18, 2004 21:24:20 GMT -5
Since “The Wall” was released there have been some major changes in psychology that may explain why JW’s implicit theory of depression is more robust than Pink Floyd’s theory. In the 1970’s when “The Wall” was written and released, psychology used a psychoanalytic approach that focused on child-hood traumas. Thus, “The Wall” rakes through all the child-hood traumas without identifying the current causes of depression.
JW appears to follow the current trend in psychology and focus on the here and now rather than some distant event. However, it is his treatment for depression that most reveals his cognitive-psychology bias. Buffy has been depressed previously because of her work and various significant losses. The reaction of her friends is always the same: “Get over it”. They don’t let her act out and, as witnessed in “Dead Man’s Party” they don’t even let her tell her side of the story. The whole Carl Roger’s notion of empathy, active listening and unconditional positive regard is rejected.
The current trend in psychology uses cognitive therapy or rational emotive therapy that involves confronting the person and telling them if they are behaving or thinking inappropriately. The world does not revolve around Buffy and it is part of the role of her friends to tell her this when she needs to hear it. Her friends did not do their job in season 6 for lots of reasons. Spike was not her friend in season 6 and thus he did not stop her acting inappropriately. Thus Buffy had to find her own strength to end the relationship in her own time. I earlier said this was a lucky thing, but in the Joss-verse this is a bad thing. It was bad for Spike, bad for Buffy. It would have been better for both if Spike set limits for Buffy instead of letting her reach rock-bottom. Spike did have one piece of good advice for Buffy: “Life isn’t bliss, life is just this. Its living. You have to go on living.” This is the bottom line for JW. Life is often unpleasant. It is unreasonable to expect it be any different. It is up to the individual through their friends and other connections to deal with the unpleasantness and move on.
Thus, times have changed. The human condition has not changed, but our understanding of it has. One of the reasons for this is a change in psychology, the other is the growth of feminism. This leads to my final post about the depiction of feminism in "The Wall" and BtVS. I will probably post this tomorrow unless God grants me a 25+-hour day today.
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Post by Kerrie on Jan 19, 2004 16:52:37 GMT -5
This is my final post about Pink Floyd, BtVS and depression and definitely the wooliest.
Watching "The Wall" it is impossible not to notice the role that women play in Pink's state of mind. At his mock trial the witnesses against him are a puppet school-master, with his strings being pulled by the school-master's wife, Pink's mother and his wife. The judge is a vagina. It has taken me a long time to figure out what this all means but I think Pink Floyd are trying to say that women helped build the wall around Pink's real self but femininsm has made him conscious of how badly he treats women and how much he needs to get in touch with his emotions/his real self if he wants to be happy.
In contrast BtVS is a feminist show. Buffy is the Slayer and combines fashion with defeating evil and saving the world. However, I think that such a masculine role gives Buffy masculine problems such as being unable to communicate her feelings. I don't think it is coincidental that the depressed seasons for Buffy are when she is fighting the only two female "Big Bads". This makes me think that the message here is similar to Pink Floyd's message: suppressing your emotions (aka your feminie side) leads to depression.
I am really not sure about any of the above. I know that there is a connection between the description of females in "The Wall" and BtVS, but I am not sure what. Pink could just be a misogynistic bastard and Buffy just a feminist icon with Glory and Willow conincidentally being the only two female "Big Bads".
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Post by Kerrie on Jan 20, 2004 16:08:15 GMT -5
Sorry. The good news is I go back to Uni in early March.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 20, 2004 16:44:36 GMT -5
Sorry. The good news is I go back to Uni in early March. Great read; unfortunately at the moment I am not a great reader. Wish I could come up with comments worthy of what you wrote! Julia, apparently spending January brain dead
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Post by ellie on Jan 23, 2004 15:27:13 GMT -5
This is my final post about Pink Floyd, BtVS and depression and definitely the wooliest. Watching "The Wall" it is impossible not to notice the role that women play in Pink's state of mind. At his mock trial the witnesses against him are a puppet school-master, with his strings being pulled by the school-master's wife, Pink's mother and his wife. The judge is a vagina. It has taken me a long time to figure out what this all means but I think Pink Floyd are trying to say that women helped build the wall around Pink's real self but femininsm has made him conscious of how badly he treats women and how much he needs to get in touch with his emotions/his real self if he wants to be happy. In contrast BtVS is a feminist show. Buffy is the Slayer and combines fashion with defeating evil and saving the world. However, I think that such a masculine role gives Buffy masculine problems such as being unable to communicate her feelings. I don't think it is coincidental that the depressed seasons for Buffy are when she is fighting the only two female "Big Bads". This makes me think that the message here is similar to Pink Floyd's message: suppressing your emotions (aka your feminie side) leads to depression. I am really not sure about any of the above. I know that there is a connection between the description of females in "The Wall" and BtVS, but I am not sure what. Pink could just be a misogynistic bastard and Buffy just a feminist icon with Glory and Willow conincidentally being the only two female "Big Bads". Kerrie- fascinating ideas about Pink Floyd- I will have to ponder- I don't knowif I quiteget the idea of Pink Floyd's protofeminism- There was the implicit condemnation of a certain kind of feminine principle-and there was certainly a discomfort expressed within the film with how the hero treated his women- I hadnotthouhgt oftying the fact of buffy'sdeclinetothe fact that thetwoBigBadofSeason 5 &6 werefemale-brilliant-I thinkyou are ontothe nub of something there- Buffy lost her mom and the fount ot feminine wisdom and love and in the next two years had to face the sources of female rage/pain/loss/power/ and in season 7 she reclaims the power- bravo Kerrie- ellie
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