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Post by Techno-bot on Jun 13, 2004 21:20:27 GMT -5
Written by Howard Gordon & Tim Minear
Directed by Tucker Gates
Air date: 11/30/99
Doyle gets a chance to atone for his past when Angel agrees to helpa group of mixed-heritage demons being hunted by violent pure-blood demons known as The Scourge.
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Post by Rachael on Aug 18, 2004 22:17:08 GMT -5
Not sure what to make of this ep (and apparently, neither does anyone else). I mean, all weepy over Doyle dying (and it's worse, 'cause the actor. . . .)
But - I kinda thought he deserved a better episode to die it. Not the death itself - it was, you know, heroic, and painful and everything it should have been.
But the episode itself is one of those "eh" moments in the history of the Jossverse. The moral is applied with a sledgehammer, and the Cordelia/Doyle thing is hastily resolved (IMO), after being dragged along for two months. I wanted more from that.
A couple of things:
Angel says (regarding his choice in I Will Remember You), "We decided" and "We belong to the world". "We"? I seem to remember him making a unilateral decision that Buffy was NOT on board with. And, since he's the only one who remembers, he can retcon his choice any way he wants when explaining it to Doyle. I was NOT happy with his choices here.
The eternal Cordy motto: "We can't keep secrets from each other." See, they HAD to make her dead for Season 5, 'cause if she'd been there, she'd've been way too practical to let any of what happened, happen.
That's pretty much it. Anyone else?
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Post by Lola m on Aug 22, 2004 19:03:31 GMT -5
Random thoughts about Hero . . . . . If we didn't understand before that Doyle is AtS' Xander, this ep would make it very clear. Like: * So many examples of Doyle's vision of himself, and his demon side in particular, as not important or not good. "You fight, I'll keep score". "Pretty low rent even by demon standards." "I don't have any friends." "I punked out." "Angel, he's the real deal." * Cordy always there with put downs, especially those complaints that are so similar to stuff she said about Xander. Clothes, being poor, being average run of the mill joe schmoe guy. But then also getting together with him, being the one to ask him out first, actually. * Doyle being the guy with the heart and the insight into others and using that insight to help them. Talking to the kid, "losing yourself, hoping it all goes away, I know that never works". And ultimately being willing to sacrifice himself to help others. Also: Boy, Angel loves to use that "here, I have one of my erstwhile buddies in a head lock to prove I'm evil" ploy. I had remembered the obvious (waaaay obvious) Nazi parallels with the Scourge story line. But I hadn't thought of the different possible metaphor for the escaping demons. I mean, yeah, they could be like Jews or other endangered folks trying to escape, but also they could be seen as the a sort of "flipped" version of immigrants doing anything to get into, or in this case out of, a country. And of course we have to have an "angry young man" to be all "things will never change" and "you don't understand" and storm off and actually be part of the reason the others are caught. What's the deal with Angel and prophesies, huh? I'd also forgotten that we learned about the first vision Doyle ever got in this ep. I find it very interesting, and very typical of the additional concepts of demons we get in AtS, that TPTB tried to send Doyle to help other demons. Finally, those last shots of Doyle, as Cordy and Angel watch him in the commercial. ***sniff, sniff, sniff  *** Man, this is why I was kind of avoiding watching this one. But still, what a great final shot for the ep. Really, the perfect one. Lola |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 10, 2005 20:42:38 GMT -5
Week two of the festival brings us our number 9 rated episode . . . Hero Come on over to our offices and you'll see that there's still heroes in this world.
The good fight, yeah? You never know until you've been tested. I get that now.
Is that it? Am I done? Links to items of interest: Link to main board, click on Angelphile and go down to Hero for Erin’s analysis www.soulfulspike.com/indexholder.htm Link to discussion thread of Erin’s analysis[/size] scubiefan.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=angelphile&action=display&thread=1093930064 Now, start your discussing, squeeing, quoting, celebrating and general all-round enjoyment!
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2005 7:08:28 GMT -5
A trivia question for ya'll.
Of our two episodes this week (Hero and Hush), which actually takes place “first” in the Jossverse timeline?
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Post by Pixi on Jul 11, 2005 7:51:45 GMT -5
Definetely not one of my favorite episodes and I think I've actually only watched it once.
I liked the ending and the commercials which were replayed in You're Welcome. Very well done. An extremely well done way to end this episode.
With that said - honestly I didn't find too much to like about this episode. I was always kind of meh about Doyle's character from the beginning. One of the reasons I wasn't immediately gung ho on Angel the Series was my dislike of Doyle. I liked Cordy and I was interested to see what happened with Angel but Doyle - totally meh.
I also disliked the way they were seemingly sending Cordy on the same trip as in Buffy - falling for the seemingly ordinary guy ala Xander as already mentioned.
I can't rewatch this as I don't have it and I'm sure there are other moments of goodness mixed hither and yon that I liked but I honestly don't really remember that much about it.
I love finding out what episodes are making the list. I loved Reunion, dislike Hero. I loved Hush, disliked LMPTM. Hmmm - so I'm 1/2 in both threads.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2005 12:52:28 GMT -5
I sometimes forget all the important things that are happening in this ep. I mean, I remember the main concepts - the very obviously Nazi-like Scourge and its attempt to wipe out "impure" demons and humans, the heroic death of Doyle and the passing of his visions to Cordy. But I tend to forget how important an ep it is.
Falling midway through the season, it points out to us how things will be on Angel. How Angel will be on AtS as opposed to BtVS. What will be the same; what will be different. The world will be greyer, the demons will be more shaded - more complex.
Also, the death of a major character right while the show is still developing puts us in a forever precarious emotional place. If Doyle can die . . . well, then, anyone can!!
Most importantly, we get such a strong link to the main driving theme of AtS. We get the “explanation” for Doyle’s visions in this ep too, and it is likely because of . . . wait for it . . . redemption. He didn’t come to the aid of his fellow Brachen demons, so he is forced to come to the aid of others. Another link/comparison between him and Angel.
It’s why they have the conversation (ostensibly about why Angel and Buffy can’t be together) about why Angel has to “Fight the good fight - whichever way you can.” We get that conversation to understand Angel, but also to see Doyle keep trying to not be that guy – to set himself up as the guy who just “keeps score”. Makes a whole redemption arc for him in one ep as he changes to the hero – the guy who loses his life while saving others.
And we have the visions passing on to Cordy – we don’t know that is what is happening at the time, but it is. So Cordy has a redemption arc too. She is making up for her previous life of casual cruelty. She gets to see real cruelty in her visions and then help to do something about it. It's not fair, it's not proportionate to her past "misdeeds". But then fair was never part of the deal.
Lola
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Post by Karen on Jul 11, 2005 14:25:45 GMT -5
*sigh* "Hero". "Angel" was never the same after this episode. Doyle was such a good foil for Angel. He made such an impact in only 8 episodes, and I hate that he was taken from us so soon.
Wanted to add that I loved when Wesley came on board. I liked how they didn't *replace* Doyle, and gave Wesley his own unique story to tell.
And although "Angel" was not the same, I still loved it. But I missed Doyle for a long while after the shock of his death.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2005 16:28:11 GMT -5
*sigh* " Hero". "Angel" was never the same after this episode. Doyle was such a good foil for Angel. He made such an impact in only 8 episodes, and I hate that he was taken from us so soon. Wanted to add that I loved when Wesley came on board. I liked how they didn't *replace* Doyle, and gave Wesley his own unique story to tell. And although "Angel" was not the same, I still loved it. But I missed Doyle for a long while after the shock of his death. I remember it was such a . . . shock - that the character actually died. I really was not expecting that at all. I liked that they didn't "replace" Doyle either. That he passed the visions on to Cordy and Wes had a different role in the team and so there was never another "Doyle". Well, until Lindsey tried to make Spike think he was Doyle. Which was a particularly good way to make us not very happy with Lindsey. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 11, 2005 19:11:57 GMT -5
Over on the Hush thread, we were talking about how Joss was really on a roll during BtVS season 4 and AtS season 1. I sometimes wonder if he was working different ways the same themes could be explored. I mean, we get the Scourge in Hero and the Initiative in BtVS. One is demons organizing to take out humanity, the other is humanity organizing to take out demon-kind. Neither able to see the grey area of demon and human blending or able to be evil and good.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 11, 2005 20:47:12 GMT -5
Random thought about Hero:
After Doyle kisses Cordy, he says "I guess we'll never know (turns Demon form) if you could learn to love a face like this."
And it just hit me, Cordy becoming "demonized" in season 3 and Jasmine being all about love and people (except Connor) being repelled by Jasmine's ugly maggoty face in season 4.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 12, 2005 7:47:04 GMT -5
Random thought about Hero: After Doyle kisses Cordy, he says "I guess we'll never know (turns Demon form) if you could learn to love a face like this." And it just hit me, Cordy becoming "demonized" in season 3 and Jasmine being all about love and people (except Connor) being repelled by Jasmine's ugly maggoty face in season 4. Huh. I never really thought about it that way. Interesting!! |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 12, 2005 7:49:44 GMT -5
I also was thinking about how we get another example of Angel being referred to someone special, someone "chosen", like Buffy. So, the demons think he is the “promised one” - but really, it's Doyle who saves them. So does that mean Doyle was the "promised one"? I mean, Angel didn't recognise this as a prophesy about him, so . . .
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Post by Queen E on Jul 12, 2005 11:08:00 GMT -5
I also was thinking about how we get another example of Angel being referred to someone special, someone "chosen", like Buffy. So, the demons think he is the “promised one” - but really, it's Doyle who saves them. So does that mean Doyle was the "promised one"? I mean, Angel didn't recognise this as a prophesy about him, so . . . Oh, good lord...that opens a whole other plot bunny in my head about Doyle and Cordy being the parents of Jasmine... |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 12, 2005 11:56:27 GMT -5
I also was thinking about how we get another example of Angel being referred to someone special, someone "chosen", like Buffy. So, the demons think he is the “promised one” - but really, it's Doyle who saves them. So does that mean Doyle was the "promised one"? I mean, Angel didn't recognise this as a prophesy about him, so . . . Oh, good lord...that opens a whole other plot bunny in my head about Doyle and Cordy being the parents of Jasmine... Eeeeeep!  |
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