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Post by Karen on Jul 17, 2005 21:46:41 GMT -5
Darla gives birth.
Let the Celebration discussion begin!
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Post by Karen on Jul 17, 2005 21:48:45 GMT -5
Copied from Lola's announcement:
All through the ages, there have been strong women. Tough women. Women who can kick your ass, buddy.
Think slayers have a lock on all that? Think again!
Announcing the Sizzlin’  Angel Episode Festival winner of the week! Number eight in our countdown to the most requested episodes, I present: Lullaby 
On your marks, now. Get ready, get set, CELEBRATE!
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Post by Lola m on Jul 18, 2005 12:14:24 GMT -5
So, I love the scene where Holtz actually finds out about Angel's soul from Sahjahn. (As oposed to the earlier scene where he was tortuing Angel and instead of trying to say he's "changed", Angel wisely just keeps pushing at how did Holtz get here unchanged from the eighteenth century).
Holtz: Things have never been clearer. Releasing his soul to suffer for all eternity only makes his destruction more just, more fitting.
Sahjahn: Oh. Well, then what's the problem?
Holtz: You've had me hunting the wrong prey.
Sahjahn: Ah! Right. Because an Angel with a soul is going to be a slightly different challenge from an Angel without a soul.
Holtz: I must know everything.
Sahjahn: Right. No, gotcha. My mistake.
Holtz: You've kept nothing else from me then?
Sahjahn: Ah. No. Nothing I can think of
I think it's a very interesting idea that Holtz says he needs to “release” Angels soul. Does he mean it? Or is it just one more rationalization for his obsession? How does this fit with his later actions, where he spares Angel's unlife in order to have the opportunity to torture him more later.
Also, I find it really interesting the Sahjahn doesn’t tell him about the baby. How does this fit (or not) with the whole twisting arc of working to bring forth Jasmine?
Even without the falling back on the realistic idea that Joss and the writing crew are sort of making it up as they go, (and therefore the Jasmine arc thing wasn't really decided upon yet), I can actually see how Sahjahn's actions could make sense.
'Cuz I can go with a theory that says the really big evils (TFE, the Senior Partners, etc,) are just very . . . flexible in their long-range planning. They want to claim it's all "destiny" later, but really, they are always moving, always changing as needed to fit how TPTB are moving to block them.
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Post by Pixi on Jul 19, 2005 15:47:13 GMT -5
Tiptoeing around so as not to wake the baby. It's quiet in here.
Well - this is not one of my favorite episodes and I was very leary of the fact that they were introducing a baby into the series.
Babies are usually the kiss of death and while I enjoyed Angel making goo goo faces at little Connor as much as the rest of them, I was not heavily invested in this arc.
I was surprised that Darla was being all self-sacrificial but then I'm not a huge fan of Darla except in the flashbacks episodes.
I don't actually have this episode so I'm afraid my input is minimal. The best part of the birth of baby Connor was the subsequent Wesley stealing the baby, getting his throat slit, the conflict with the group and the development of hot, scruffy, sexy Wesley.
And lots of hot Lilah/Wesley moments.
So um Lullaby good, fire bad.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 20, 2005 7:17:16 GMT -5
Tiptoeing around so as not to wake the baby. It's quiet in here. Well - this is not one of my favorite episodes and I was very leary of the fact that they were introducing a baby into the series. Babies are usually the kiss of death and while I enjoyed Angel making goo goo faces at little Connor as much as the rest of them, I was not heavily invested in this arc. I was surprised that Darla was being all self-sacrificial but then I'm not a huge fan of Darla except in the flashbacks episodes. I don't actually have this episode so I'm afraid my input is minimal. The best part of the birth of baby Connor was the subsequent Wesley stealing the baby, getting his throat slit, the conflict with the group and the development of hot, scruffy, sexy Wesley. And lots of hot Lilah/Wesley moments. So um Lullaby good, fire bad. I too love the dirty!bad!wrong!hotness that is Lilah/Wes. #smirk# **put those glasses back on and ride him, Lilah!** I find it so funny (looking back after what we now know) that in this ep Wes is not even a blip on Lilah's radar. Wes is just some guy she can't remember who was working on the scroll before she took it. ;D |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2005 7:18:23 GMT -5
I always love enthusiastic!Fred.
Fred: Maybe he's part of what's supposed to rain down ruination upon mankind. The Nyazian Prophecies did say that the Tro-clan was going to be a confluence of events.
Cordy: And the sudden appearance of an eighteenth century vampire hunter in the twenty first century does seem pretty confluey.
Gunn: You think he's here for the baby?
Angel: I don't think he even knows about it.
Fred: He wouldn't have to. That's the tragic beauty of a cosmic convergence. I-I mean, he just plays his own small part. He-he comes here looking for Angel and Darla, and in the process ends up finding Angel's unborn child, who, as it turns out, wasn't evil at all as we feared, but was actually meant to be some sort of Messianic figure. But Holtz kills it before it's even born and his vengeance somehow triggers the end of the world!
(She looks at the group all excited and perky about her theory and their all just staring at her.)
Or not! It could go either way. Have you thought of a name yet?
Funny! But also? Kinda freakishly true, not the “kills it before it’s born thing”, but if you look at the theme of what she’s saying rather than all details . . .. well.
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Post by Queen E on Jul 21, 2005 14:55:15 GMT -5
Today's trivia stumper:
What was the name of the lullaby Holtz was singing, in "Lullaby"?
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Post by Lola m on Jul 21, 2005 16:36:39 GMT -5
Today's trivia stumper: What was the name of the lullaby Holtz was singing, in "Lullaby"? "All Through the Night"! I love that song. I have the PBS TV version of "A Child's Christmas in Wales" on tape and one of my favorite bits is when the little boy goes to bed and the adults downstairs are singing that song.  |
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Post by Linda on Jul 24, 2005 5:26:02 GMT -5
Hi all! Thanks for posting the dialog, Lola! And eetah! Pixi, about hot scruffy sexy Wes! Oh, and I keep meaning to say thanks Erin, for the trivia questions. Despite the fact that I didn't know any of them except for "Parker Lewis Can't Lose."  I actually like this episode, despite its flaws. It's all confluey, as Cordy said. This is the mid-point of the entire series. All of the previous season-spanning arcs led up to this episode and all of the future season-spanning arcs flowed from it. (Despite the fact that I agree with Lola about the writers making stuff up as they went along.) Still, this episode represents so much of what AtS is all about: choices in the dark. Darla (who was, funnily enough, the first-ever onscreen BtVS monster back in Welcome to the Hellmouth) finds out about love, remorse, sacrifice and redemption. (Oh, and the *extreme* pain of childbirth.  ) Holtz, a formerly righteous man, is essentially, IMO, destroyed, not only by the terrible acts of Darla and Angelus, but by the choices he makes in his quest to wreak vengeance upon them. Connor is born and Caritas (mercy & sanctuary) is destroyed for good. (Huh.) Birth and death. Justice and vengeance. Redemption and damnation. And fueling it all: love and family. IMO, one of the most horrific scenes ever: Holtz having to push his now vampiric daughter Sarah into the burning sunlight. Angel states that there can be no justice for the horrible things he and Darla did to Holtz's family. In a way, he's right. The suffering they caused can't be undone. How can the karmic scales possibly be balanced? Darla's first and last unselfish act cannot rebuild the lives they destroyed. But with her borrowed soul, she chooses to do the one good thing within her power: she stakes herself so that Connor could live. (This is the scene that gets me every time and moves this from good ep to one of my favorites -- although, like Pixi, I wasn't a big fan of Darla's.) At this point, Holtz hasn't caused anywhere near the suffering that he had to endure at Darla's and Angel's hands. But all of his choices in this episode lead to ever more darkness. He is pleased to find out about Angel's soul -- not to save it, but for the increased potential for torment. He holds off on killing Angel at his most vulnerable -- not out of mercy, but to maximize his future suffering. Angel's other statement to Holtz is also true: he and Darla couldn't take away Holtz's soul. Holtz, by his choices, does that himself. How like Holtz does Angel eventually become? How many times does he choose not to save, but to punish? Random stuff I liked or that made me go hmmmmm: Nobody wants to sit in the back seat of the car with Darla. Not because she'll attack them, but because her water broke back there. "I promise I won't throw anyone out of the car. Not while it's moving." ;D Angel cannot bring himself to lie to Darla by saying that it was alright for her to vamp him. So, there's more than one prophetic scroll that can't separate birth (or life) from death. Hee! on everyone testing the sanctuary spell by hitting Gunn. Holtz's slo-mo Terminator-stalk through the wreckage of Caritas. Darla's hand turning to dust in Angel's. DB was so good showing his shock, bewilderment and pain. Angel cradling Connor, his future (and maybe his Shanshu), in the rain as he walks by Holtz, his past personified. A past that darkens and warps Angel's future for the rest of the series and beyond. This wasn't exactly a balanced episode, though, because the AI gang was not given much to do. IMO, Lilah was more relevant to the episode than they were. Still, lots of stuff going on. Dark and light. Hopeful and ominous. Love, grief, family and making choices in terrible situations. Linda, late, of course, but still deluded into thinking I may catch up someday. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 24, 2005 13:03:15 GMT -5
Hi all! Thanks for posting the dialog, Lola! And eetah! Pixi, about hot scruffy sexy Wes! Oh, and I keep meaning to say thanks Erin, for the trivia questions. Despite the fact that I didn't know any of them except for "Parker Lewis Can't Lose." I actually like this episode, despite its flaws. It's all confluey, as Cordy said. This is the mid-point of the entire series. All of the previous season-spanning arcs led up to this episode and all of the future season-spanning arcs flowed from it. (Despite the fact that I agree with Lola about the writers making stuff up as they went along.) **nods nods nods** It's such a key episode! Truly a "pivotal" moment, in that so much of the series turns around this point. As you said, all the previous and all of the future big arcs are leading up to and flowing out of this event - the birth of Connor. Yup. Holtz continues to warp himself long after Darla and Angelus are done. He buries himself so deeply in obsessive revenge and, as a consequence, is used by dark powers that his previous self would have been horrified by to help bring about apocalyptic events. Very much a theme that Angel should have paid more attention to at times, yes? Oh my yes! The way he sits there at first, singing to her, and then the grab and her struggles and the final toss into the yard where she burns and vanishes? As you say below, Darla and Angelus can truly never "make up" for that. Darla's realization of that, because she's now having a child . . . well, it's one of the reasons I truly believe that it was truly Darla that tries to stop Connor from killing that girl to help Jasmine be born. The two scenes make sense together for me. Yes! And such a big clue that he's being used for larger, badder plans. I love how much humor there is in this ep! ;D I really saw a parallel to "Selfless" in that. Perfect examples of eps where the funny runs along side and all around and through some very dark and serious moments. Those darn prophetic scrolls and their wacky cryptic lingo! Buffy says "there's always a talisman" but I think Angel's motto should be "there's always another prophesy coming down the pike, why worry about this one".  Joss knows how to use his slo-mo walks. Every one is a gem. From Darla in the alley outside the Bronze in the first eps of BtVS to Spike and crew in China, to that lovely one with puppet!Angel in Smile Time. They always work. Love your posts, Linda! |
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jun 26, 2009 4:34:10 GMT -5
Haven't much in the way of thinky thoughts about this one. It makes me cry.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 5, 2009 14:10:44 GMT -5
Love the ever-evolving ideas of what the prophesy was actually predicting as the terrible thing arising. Also? Whatever they’re using to hold Angle by the neck? Is weird and not doing a very good job in reality. And there’s Darla. Ready to pop. And taking out all four of them in one cranky swoop.  Oh, the conclusion of the flashback to Holtz’s family. “Mummy won’t wake up.” And he sits there all night, knowing what his little girl is now. And at W&H, the attempted cover-up begins. “When I hear about all this for the very first time I will be both shocked and appalled.” Angel really does care about Holtz’s soul. I mean, he mostly wants to escape, but he does really believe what’s he’s saying. Ha! Nice jump cut to slapping Wesley. Also ha! Love the whole scene with Lilah and Holtz and Angel. Wacky sidekicks. The people she works for having “this policy”. ;-) “They fought to the last.” “Yeah. I get that.” **snicker** Confluey. Fred in full on babble mode (with, of course, lots of truth and/or “gosh, guess we should have paid attention to that” stuff in it) is awesome. So. Much. Lilah. Goodness! In this ep. “You highlighted” an ancient Nyazian Scroll?”  “So Angel has a soul. Big whoop! So did Attila the Hun! Not to mention a heart as big as all outdoors when it came to gift giving.” Not sure I’m all on board with Holtz’s reasoning on things here, but then that’s not a real surprise. ;-) We get more and more info on what is going on with Darla and the baby. “This horrible world.” “What do I have to offer a child, a human child, besides ugly death?” “You'll protect it, right? From me, I mean?” Oh, man. Poor Caritas. **winces at what’s to come** “I can't have a baby here! I just had the booth simonized.” And she just keeps on smackin’ Gunn. Love is definitely in the air. Prophesies. Always with the non-understandableness. Sometimes I wonder if this particular one is, like, affected by who is reading it. It has sooooo many different interpretations. Even more than usual for prophesies. Oh. Now the scene with Holtz’s daughter. Oh, when he throws her into the sunshine! Here comes Darla. Lookin’ like hell. Um. In not the usual vamp way. The blood on the chair . . . things are all falling apart. We never really know what mystical force was making sure Connor survived, do we? I mean, ultimately we are sort of told that it is all part of the complex web woven by Jasmine, but we’re also led to believe that that is possibly not true either. And this is where it all comes down to it. Darla isn’t alive, can’t really keep the baby alive, can’t bring it into life, since she has none to share. I find it interesting that Holtz comes into the bar. Like he has to see for himself. Has to be there in person for a bit, even if he has to lob the weapon at the door from outside because of the no-violence spell. (Well, and of course as far as the writing goes, this is what allows our heroes to get a warning, thru his humming and Lorne’s abilities, but still, it does fit Holtz’s personality.) Darla sees the “perfect” timing – Holtz’s child, their child. Also, she is right about how she’s not gonna be OK. It’s not gonna be OK. Her whole speech is excellently written. Simple sentences, with lots of impact. And a nicely non-dramatic line just before her final action – “You make sure to tell him that.” Her hand just crumbling away thru his fingers. Damn! Holtz slo-mo thru the fire and the baby crying and, damn! The drama! The emotional punch! And Angel walks away. Still not sure I understand all of the emotions involved here, all that we’re seeing on Holtz’s face. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 5, 2009 14:14:21 GMT -5
Haven't much in the way of thinky thoughts about this one. It makes me cry. Is it the scene with Darla staking herself so that the baby can live? 'Cuz that gets me every time.  |
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