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Post by Karen on Jul 24, 2005 15:27:51 GMT -5
Angel, Wesley & Gunn follow Cordelia to Pylea
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Post by Lola m on Jul 24, 2005 15:38:16 GMT -5
Week four of the festival brings us our number 7 rated episodes . . . that’s right, I said episodes, plural!
And now . . . . discuss - squee - quote - celebrate to your heart's content!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 24, 2005 19:20:06 GMT -5
This is an essay about the pylea arc: In Defense of Pylea: urchin.earth.li/~sax/mutant/angel/reviews/pylea.htmlIt's from the same website as the essay I posted about Reunion. Not sure if I should post it in the other threads as well, the Pylea Arc seems like one big episode for me. It all flows together. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 25, 2005 7:33:59 GMT -5
This is an essay about the pylea arc: In Defense of Pylea: urchin.earth.li/~sax/mutant/angel/reviews/pylea.htmlIt's from the same website as the essay I posted about Reunion. Not sure if I should post it in the other threads as well, the Pylea Arc seems like one big episode for me. It all flows together. Thanks for the link, Liz! (I struggled with the same issue of other threads, etc. Because, yeah, it's really one big three hour episode. I think this is why folks had such a hard time picking one "ep" of the three and thus why we ended up with all of them as this week's choice.) Very interesting essay! I liked in particular the idea that the Pylea arc is really "an extended coda; a reprise of the themes of the season, seen from a new perspective, with eventual resolution of some of the key issues surrounding those themes". The essay mentions that this is unusual for TV, and it made me immediately think of how it's not necessarily unusual for Joss. I tend think that Restless serves much the same function on BtVS. In the Pylea eps, though, it really is true that you can see the characters re-do the same steps they took all season. I particularly liked the discussion of Wesley and Gunn's journeys. I also liked the idea that the theme of AtS season 2 was "belonging" (as suggested by the lead-in ep to the Pylea arc) - 'cuz I was thinking some of the same thoughts while reading Erin's most recent Angelphile analysis of First Impressions, the third ep of season 2. Also, that Pylea is a bridge between the second and third season arcs. Also interesting is that this seems to have been written in the summer break between season 2 and 3 - so it has a very fresh "where are we going" feel to it. It's like, once you've got the whole entire series to look back on, you gain some amazing perspective, but you also can't ever see it like you did when you were right in the midst of it, you know? |
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Post by Linda on Jul 27, 2005 5:34:18 GMT -5
This is an essay about the pylea arc: In Defense of Pylea: urchin.earth.li/~sax/mutant/angel/reviews/pylea.htmlIt's from the same website as the essay I posted about Reunion. Not sure if I should post it in the other threads as well, the Pylea Arc seems like one big episode for me. It all flows together. Thanks for the link, Liz! (I struggled with the same issue of other threads, etc. Because, yeah, it's really one big three hour episode. I think this is why folks had such a hard time picking one "ep" of the three and thus why we ended up with all of them as this week's choice.) Very interesting essay! I liked in particular the idea that the Pylea arc is really "an extended coda; a reprise of the themes of the season, seen from a new perspective, with eventual resolution of some of the key issues surrounding those themes". The essay mentions that this is unusual for TV, and it made me immediately think of how it's not necessarily unusual for Joss. I tend think that Restless serves much the same function on BtVS. In the Pylea eps, though, it really is true that you can see the characters re-do the same steps they took all season. I particularly liked the discussion of Wesley and Gunn's journeys. I also liked the idea that the theme of AtS season 2 was "belonging" (as suggested by the lead-in ep to the Pylea arc) - 'cuz I was thinking some of the same thoughts while reading Erin's most recent Angelphile analysis of First Impressions, the third ep of season 2. Also, that Pylea is a bridge between the second and third season arcs. Also interesting is that this seems to have been written in the summer break between season 2 and 3 - so it has a very fresh "where are we going" feel to it. It's like, once you've got the whole entire series to look back on, you gain some amazing perspective, but you also can't ever see it like you did when you were right in the midst of it, you know? Oooh! Thanks for the link, Liz! I love shiny new thinks! Oh and eetah! Lola! Linda, happy to read your thoughts, despite the fact that now I feel guilty all over again for not being caught up with Erin's Angelphiles and Spring's Spikecentricities.  |
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Post by Linda on Jul 27, 2005 5:49:52 GMT -5
Hi again! Perhaps some of you might've noticed that I am just a *little* obsessed with the concept that the supporting characters of Buffy and Angel mirror (maybe symbolize) various aspects of our two heroes. (Please blame Erin for my continued obsession interest.) Watching these two season finales, Becoming and Plrtz Glrb, at the same time brings me to a speculation about timing and what Fred means to AtS. On AtS, they said that Fred disappeared from our dimension about five years ago. Coincidentally, that works out to when Angel first sees Buffy (1996). I was wondering if it was *more* than coincidence. Perhaps it means that Angel, as he finally decides to clean himself up and actually *do* something when he sees Buffy for the very first time, actually loses or exiles a part of himself to do so. A *good* part of himself. Maybe, at first, Angel's good deeds were all about Buffy and being worthy of Buffy, and not yet for the sake of good -- much like Season Five and Six Spike. And it isn't until the end of AtS Season Two, and the working out of a few of his many issues, that he is reunited with his missing inner Fred. Fred's character always struck me as someone who will do the right thing. Just because it's right. Despite the danger to herself. (Helping Cordy, for example.) But in a place of absolutes like Plrtz Glrb, she is driven into hiding by the harshness of the world's judgement. She is a cow and so she can't be a person, much less a hero. Angel, too, feels like an outsider in our world. He is a vampire. So, except for his AI family, no one believes / expects him to be a good person, too. Somehow, he manages to be -- like Fred occasionally punching a hole out of Plrtz Glrb, but still essentially trapped by the will and judgement of the world. Angel's reasons for being a hero and a champion, at least in the beginning, were arguably about atonement, earning forgiveness, and eventually for the Shanshu. Perfectly valid reasons, with his moral compass pointing in the right direction. But you could make the argument that he was still acting for his own ultimate benefit. But then, then the Epiphany comes along, where he learns that good is sufficient in and of itself. Which strikes me as something Fred personifies. A little after that, the dimensions finally open up with the temporary presence of Cordy and the rest of the AI gang in Plrtz Glrb. And they come home with Fred. Smart, crazy, strong, moral Fred. Who doesn't need a reason to do what's right except to know that it *is* right. (Which also explains why she is so harsh in her response to her admired Professor in Supersymmetry and Connor in Deep Down, for example.) Anyway, these are proto-thoughts. Please feel free to puncture them with harsh facts. At this moment, though, they seem kinda shiny and new to me. Linda, new stuff to see all the time in the Jossverse, although that may have more to do with brain warpage than insight. |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 27, 2005 7:12:11 GMT -5
Hi again! Perhaps some of you might've noticed that I am just a *little* obsessed with the concept that the supporting characters of Buffy and Angel mirror (maybe symbolize) various aspects of our two heroes. (Please blame Erin for my continued obsession interest.) Watching these two season finales, Becoming and Plrtz Glrb, at the same time brings me to a speculation about timing and what Fred means to AtS. On AtS, they said that Fred disappeared from our dimension about five years ago. Coincidentally, that works out to when Angel first sees Buffy (1996). I was wondering if it was *more* than coincidence. Perhaps it means that Angel, as he finally decides to clean himself up and actually *do* something when he sees Buffy for the very first time, actually loses or exiles a part of himself to do so. A *good* part of himself. Maybe, at first, Angel's good deeds were all about Buffy and being worthy of Buffy, and not yet for the sake of good -- much like Season Five and Six Spike. And it isn't until the end of AtS Season Two, and the working out of a few of his many issues, that he is reunited with his missing inner Fred. Fred's character always struck me as someone who will do the right thing. Just because it's right. Despite the danger to herself. (Helping Cordy, for example.) But in a place of absolutes like Plrtz Glrb, she is driven into hiding by the harshness of the world's judgement. She is a cow and so she can't be a person, much less a hero. Angel, too, feels like an outsider in our world. He is a vampire. So, except for his AI family, no one believes / expects him to be a good person, too. Somehow, he manages to be -- like Fred occasionally punching a hole out of Plrtz Glrb, but still essentially trapped by the will and judgement of the world. Angel's reasons for being a hero and a champion, at least in the beginning, were arguably about atonement, earning forgiveness, and eventually for the Shanshu. Perfectly valid reasons, with his moral compass pointing in the right direction. But you could make the argument that he was still acting for his own ultimate benefit. But then, then the Epiphany comes along, where he learns that good is sufficient in and of itself. Which strikes me as something Fred personifies. A little after that, the dimensions finally open up with the temporary presence of Cordy and the rest of the AI gang in Plrtz Glrb. And they come home with Fred. Smart, crazy, strong, moral Fred. Who doesn't need a reason to do what's right except to know that it *is* right. (Which also explains why she is so harsh in her response to her admired Professor in Supersymmetry and Connor in Deep Down, for example.) Anyway, these are proto-thoughts. Please feel free to puncture them with harsh facts. At this moment, though, they seem kinda shiny and new to me. Linda, new stuff to see all the time in the Jossverse, although that may have more to do with brain warpage than insight. Ooooooh! *pets Linda's pretty shiny brain* I don't think it's a bad obsession to look for and explore how supporting characters mirror aspects of Angel and Buffy - 'cuz gosh darn it, they do! I mean, whether or not it's a obvious parallel (like the mind, heart, spirit, hand thing of the spell to reach the first slayer) or more subtle ones, the mirroring is really there.  Also liked your vision of the role Fred plays, the "someone who will do the right thing", is carried all the way to season 6. Fred, after all, is the one who reminds Angel, (when questioned about her reasons for trying to recorporealize Spike), "It's about doing what's right. Remember?". Very nice proto-thoughts. ;D |
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Post by Lola m on Jul 27, 2005 7:25:37 GMT -5
So - after re-watching these three eps last night, what were some of my favorite funny or fun bits? * All the cow lines and jokes. * Angel asking if the batteries are dead in the spell book. * Lorne's "gift horse" "mouth" sock-puppet theater. * Cordy's "First of all - I'm a human being - not a cow. You can't just barter a human being! Second of all: one pig? One *measly* pig?" (Frankly, I could list practically all of Cordy's lines. ) * Lorne going to see his own psychic advisor. * The running gag about "freakishly hybridized Siamese" people. * Wes and the handcuffs. (Angel: Who do we know that has handcuffs?" Wes: Well, I . . . wouldn't know.") Plus, like we believe that Angel doesn't have some handcuffs hanging around. Yeah, right. ;D * Wes' "eureka" moment. * "Can everyone just notice how much fire I'm not on?" and all the funny goofy sweet "Angel enjoying the moment" moments. * I think we're winning! * Lorne's snarkiness. Like: "Oh, well, first there was the welcome home parade thrown in my honor. Ticker tape, streamers. Honestly, I'm so touched, I almost wept. Locked me in a room, pushed me around, asked a bunch of questions. Your standard film noir." * After they (and we) have all been worried about her, the final shot of Cordy on the throne, all spangly genie outfit and crown and perkily saying "Hi, guys!". |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 27, 2005 9:31:20 GMT -5
Hi again! Perhaps some of you might've noticed that I am just a *little* obsessed with the concept that the supporting characters of Buffy and Angel mirror (maybe symbolize) various aspects of our two heroes. (Please blame Erin for my continued obsession interest.) Watching these two season finales, Becoming and Plrtz Glrb, at the same time brings me to a speculation about timing and what Fred means to AtS. On AtS, they said that Fred disappeared from our dimension about five years ago. Coincidentally, that works out to when Angel first sees Buffy (1996). I was wondering if it was *more* than coincidence. Perhaps it means that Angel, as he finally decides to clean himself up and actually *do* something when he sees Buffy for the very first time, actually loses or exiles a part of himself to do so. A *good* part of himself. Maybe, at first, Angel's good deeds were all about Buffy and being worthy of Buffy, and not yet for the sake of good -- much like Season Five and Six Spike. And it isn't until the end of AtS Season Two, and the working out of a few of his many issues, that he is reunited with his missing inner Fred. Fred's character always struck me as someone who will do the right thing. Just because it's right. Despite the danger to herself. (Helping Cordy, for example.) But in a place of absolutes like Plrtz Glrb, she is driven into hiding by the harshness of the world's judgement. She is a cow and so she can't be a person, much less a hero. Angel, too, feels like an outsider in our world. He is a vampire. So, except for his AI family, no one believes / expects him to be a good person, too. Somehow, he manages to be -- like Fred occasionally punching a hole out of Plrtz Glrb, but still essentially trapped by the will and judgement of the world. Angel's reasons for being a hero and a champion, at least in the beginning, were arguably about atonement, earning forgiveness, and eventually for the Shanshu. Perfectly valid reasons, with his moral compass pointing in the right direction. But you could make the argument that he was still acting for his own ultimate benefit. But then, then the Epiphany comes along, where he learns that good is sufficient in and of itself. Which strikes me as something Fred personifies. A little after that, the dimensions finally open up with the temporary presence of Cordy and the rest of the AI gang in Plrtz Glrb. And they come home with Fred. Smart, crazy, strong, moral Fred. Who doesn't need a reason to do what's right except to know that it *is* right. (Which also explains why she is so harsh in her response to her admired Professor in Supersymmetry and Connor in Deep Down, for example.) Anyway, these are proto-thoughts. Please feel free to puncture them with harsh facts. At this moment, though, they seem kinda shiny and new to me. Linda, new stuff to see all the time in the Jossverse, although that may have more to do with brain warpage than insight. About Fred's disappearance (and Lorne's appearance on Earth) coinciding with just before the beginning of BTVS, I've always thought that was deliberate too. Not quite sure what it means, but yeah. I've always found Fred's moral clarity to be a strong character trait as well. One thing I was thinking about the other day was Angel's comment about HumanDarla smashing the mirrors because she can't stand to look at herself in them. Whereas he doesn't have that problem because normally he has no reflection. In Pylea, he does have a reflection, and he's quite taken with it (actually, we see the same thing in IWRY), in human form at least. You can attribute that reaction to the novelty of the situation, but it's interesting that we never see Angel repulsed by his own image, except when he's in beast-form. Almost all my thoughts about ATS are half formed at this point, but Lola's inspired me to list my favorite moments, so here goes: *The buddy movie feel, especially when the gang first gets to Pylea. (and it's sad upon rewatching, when you know that these relationships are going to be torn apart in the next year) *The introduction of Fred! *Gratuitous shots of Cordy's cleavage for those who look for that sort of thing *Lorne's friend the psychic giving really vague predictions about the future ending with "it's like you feel cut off," right before she hangs up on her caller. Bwah! *Gunn outing himself as a Xena fan *scene segues, particularly the one where the gang is fight and some one shouts "I think we're winning" then cut to the gang as bound prisoners. *the guys hobbling around in chains *Lorne's "standard film noir" line. |
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Post by Queen E on Jul 27, 2005 10:51:28 GMT -5
Hee!
This is one of my faves:
WESLEY: No. No, these impenetrable stone walls are proving to be rather...
GUNN: You say impenetrable and I will kick your ass.
WESLEY: I was always horrified by those stories about the tower of London.
ANGEL: Wasn't that bad.
WESLEY: Yes? Well, compared to this place I'm sure the tower takes on a certain nostalgic glow.
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Post by Linda on Aug 14, 2005 19:23:08 GMT -5
Hi all! I'm soooo far behind! I'm watching as fast as I can. Well, not really, in this case. I've watched each of the Plrtz Glrb eps a couple of times. It's all Liz's fault. And Lola's for encouraging me. Yup. Not mine, 'cause I'm *not* obsessive or anything. Or wanky. Nope, not me. (Although, I re-watched Numfar *more* than a couple of times. But that's a given, right? Right?) It's just that when Liz pointed out Lorne's portal jump into our dimension also happened around the time of Angel's initial sighting of Buffy, I got to wondering: If Fred represents something Angel has lost and only now regained, what part of Angel does Lorne's character represent? I think that Lorne's description of our dimension in this episode sums it up: here we have love songs and lullabies. The kind of music which is a distillation of love and what's "beautiful and painful and right" in the world. When Angel saw Buffy for the first time, I believe that his love and appreciation for this world was born. I'm not talking about his love for Buffy, but rather about his love for the world that has Buffy (and later, Connor) in it. The thing that stands out about Lorne was that he loved everyone equally -- good, bad and hideously ugly. (Or at least he did until he became a permanent member of Angel's team. Huh.) He helped everyone who asked for his help. With mercy and kindness and humor. Similarly, Season one and two Angel also helped those who needed help. (When we get to the latter part of Season three onwards, however, how many souls did Lorne or Angel save?) Perhaps Lorne started the season as a plot device -- a psychic, a messenger, an empath and an excuse for Dorky!Angel to unleash his inner Manilow. ;D One thing I eventually noticed in my many re-watching s of these eps was that once everyone got to Pylea, those attributes were unimportant. Lorne's role in the Plrtz Glrb trilogy was to be the person who did *not* want to live in a world of absolutes and status and non-music. In fact, his superpower in Pylea was not his empathy, but his music. (Stop! In the name of love/Before you break my heart. ;D) Another thing about Lorne was that he did not see humans as cows. He never gave the impression of ever having done so. (Or if he did, he got over it five years ago. ) Extrapolating a bit: I wonder if Angel's internal pre-Buffy world placed humans as lesser beings, below vampires. Perhaps even below himself, wretched as he was when Whistler found him. Curiously enough, this was the season in which Angel had humbled himself enough to work for the gang, rather than the other way around. Oh, and if Pylea represents Angel's former internal landscape, then it is his own and *not* the world's judgement which keeps him trapped and compartmentalized. If this proto-thought that Lorne represents Angel's love for the world holds water throughout the rest of the series, then the fact that Lorne left at the end of NFA is particularly troubling. Seems to me that in Season Five, Lorne's help was limited to the Fang Gang and the high-paying clients of W&H. Not exactly the original all-inclusive guy we met here in season two. And I can see how Fred's death and Angel's murder of both Drogyn and Lindsey would cause Lorne and Angel's love for the world to leave him. Hopefully not forever, though, with Connor, Wes and Fred all returning to Angel in Season Six. Linda, I neeeeeed Season Six! Please? P.S. Although I would settle for a post-NFA Spike movie that brings back Wes and Fred and Illyria and Gunn and Lorne, too. |
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Post by Linda on Aug 14, 2005 19:28:41 GMT -5
Hi again!
I love everyone's highlights of these eps! I've come to have a new appreciation for them, since they stand up to repeated re-watchings. And they were light with hints of darkness as opposed to the concurrent Season Five Buffy eps which were dark with hints of light. How often did *that* happen?
Other faves:
So when I said 'I love this dimension and I'm never, never, never gonna leave,' which 'never' did you not understand?
When Aggie told Lorne that Angel and Co. wouldn't be able to rescue the girl without him, did she mean Cordy or Fred?
So was I the only one who thought "squirrelly!Wes" when he was running from book to book to book in the lobby? OK. Just me.
Linda, although if it was deliberate, then they were parallelling Fred and Wes from the start, despite their lack of interaction...
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Post by Lola m on Aug 14, 2005 19:30:13 GMT -5
Hi all! I'm soooo far behind! I'm watching as fast as I can. Well, not really, in this case. I've watched each of the Plrtz Glrb eps a couple of times. It's all Liz's fault. And Lola's for encouraging me. Yup. Not mine, 'cause I'm *not* obsessive or anything. Or wanky. Nope, not me. (Although, I re-watched Numfar *more* than a couple of times. But that's a given, right? Right?) It's just that when Liz pointed out Lorne's portal jump into our dimension also happened around the time of Angel's initial sighting of Buffy, I got to wondering: If Fred represents something Angel has lost and only now regained, what part of Angel does Lorne's character represent? I think that Lorne's description of our dimension in this episode sums it up: here we have love songs and lullabies. The kind of music which is a distillation of love and what's "beautiful and painful and right" in the world. When Angel saw Buffy for the first time, I believe that his love and appreciation for this world was born. I'm not talking about his love for Buffy, but rather about his love for the world that has Buffy (and later, Connor) in it. The thing that stands out about Lorne was that he loved everyone equally -- good, bad and hideously ugly. (Or at least he did until he became a permanent member of Angel's team. Huh.) He helped everyone who asked for his help. With mercy and kindness and humor. Similarly, Season one and two Angel also helped those who needed help. (When we get to the latter part of Season three onwards, however, how many souls did Lorne or Angel save?) Perhaps Lorne started the season as a plot device -- a psychic, a messenger, an empath and an excuse for Dorky!Angel to unleash his inner Manilow. ;D One thing I eventually noticed in my many re-watching s of these eps was that once everyone got to Pylea, those attributes were unimportant. Lorne's role in the Plrtz Glrb trilogy was to be the person who did *not* want to live in a world of absolutes and status and non-music. In fact, his superpower in Pylea was not his empathy, but his music. (Stop! In the name of love/Before you break my heart. ;D) Another thing about Lorne was that he did not see humans as cows. He never gave the impression of ever having done so. (Or if he did, he got over it five years ago. ) Extrapolating a bit: I wonder if Angel's internal pre-Buffy world placed humans as lesser beings, below vampires. Perhaps even below himself, wretched as he was when Whistler found him. Curiously enough, this was the season in which Angel had humbled himself enough to work for the gang, rather than the other way around. Oh, and if Pylea represents Angel's former internal landscape, then it is his own and *not* the world's judgement which keeps him trapped and compartmentalized. If this proto-thought that Lorne represents Angel's love for the world holds water throughout the rest of the series, then the fact that Lorne left at the end of NFA is particularly troubling. Seems to me that in Season Five, Lorne's help was limited to the Fang Gang and the high-paying clients of W&H. Not exactly the original all-inclusive guy we met here in season two. And I can see how Fred's death and Angel's murder of both Drogyn and Lindsey would cause Lorne and Angel's love for the world to leave him. Hopefully not forever, though, with Connor, Wes and Fred all returning to Angel in Season Six. Linda, I neeeeeed Season Six! Please? P.S. Although I would settle for a post-NFA Spike movie that brings back Wes and Fred and Illyria and Gunn and Lorne, too. Oh my I just love your big squishy brain! ;D  This is really an excellent way to think about Lorne. Mirroring that element of loving the world - something that we know Angelus lacked. Angelus never looked at the world and saw the wonder of dog racing and Manchester United or even the real beauty of all those happy meals on legs. That's something Angel needed to learn. It was a big reason Doyle was his guide - to keep him connected to people, to this beautiful world. I love the idea of Lorne filling that role. I think it really fits his delight with all he found when he landed here. |
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;D 
