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Post by makd on Sept 8, 2003 0:18:48 GMT -5
I am having trouble finding a good definition for "redemption". I have used the dictionary, but it is not helpful. I am heart a behaviourist, I like to have my terms set out in concrete terms. Does redemption mean: 1) the removal of guilt (and presumeably the admission into some sort of Heaven, if you believe in that), and/or 2) the re-establishment of one's own and other people's lost esteem through good acts (and presumably the re-admission into society as an equal)? Or something else? Can there be partial redemption? Redemption doesn't mean that you no longer bear guilt (remorse). It means that you have made amends; that you have been restored to your "clean" state; that you have been "delivered from sin" and its consequences through sacrifice. Thus, although you might have sacrificed, and are now made "whole", you might very much still feel guilty or remorseful about what you might have done prior to the redemption. By sacrificing himself at the finale of Chosen, Spike essentially redeemed himself. That's why so many of us are so hopeful that Spike might return to Angel in a post-redemptive state.
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Post by Rob on Sept 8, 2003 0:22:52 GMT -5
Rob, this is a perfect jewel. You said all the things that should have been said, and said them perfectly.
The dialogue was spot-on, it was moving and wonderful and right. It was the closure we needed, and didn't get in the series. Thank you. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Thank you, Anne, for taking the time to read it. Your compliment about the dialogue is especially appreciated. That's what I work on more than anything else.
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Post by Rob on Sept 8, 2003 0:25:30 GMT -5
*cries* Ahh Rob, it is brillant. *hugs Rob* Thank you. *Rob hugs Rae right back* You're welcome. It's the least I could do for the person who fixed my avatar. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Rob on Sept 8, 2003 0:39:57 GMT -5
Rob, thank you for writing such a beautiful story. It rang so true. The picture you left us with at the end really touched my heart, with the Scoobies in the desert night, looking at the stars and each longing for someone they lost really completed the circle. Thank you! That last sequence was tough for me. I simply had no clue how to end this story in a way that I liked. Then it hit me that all four of the core characters lost someone who--to that point, at least--was (arguably) the greatest love of their lives. No disrespect intended toward Oz or Angel...I just personally consider Tara and Spike to be more meaningful. It seemed right to wrap up this phase of their lives with some quiet reflection. The desert is meant to be symbolic of a wide open future...a future that deserves to include people in their lives who DON'T have to die. I'm glad you liked it.
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Post by Rob on Sept 8, 2003 0:43:54 GMT -5
Rob, two words: [shadow=black,left,300]BLOODY BRILLIANT![/shadow] If I knew how to make the fancy colored letters, I'd say: Thanks ever so!!! I'd even have it scroll and stuff...but I can never get it to work, so I'll just say thanks.
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Post by karalee on Sept 8, 2003 0:45:24 GMT -5
Just wanted to echo what everyone else has said about your story. A very, very good read.
Caraleigh
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Post by Rob on Sept 8, 2003 0:46:23 GMT -5
OK, Rob, your schoolbus story has me in tears. You are a treasure. Keep writing. [/color] [/quote] Thank you, Nan. I'm honored that people were moved by this so much.
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Post by Rob on Sept 8, 2003 1:02:06 GMT -5
ROB: Love your short story. I especially liked how Buffy kept remembering things Spike had said, but had to keep pushing thoughts of him out of her head. Nicely done. It also made good sense the way, and with whom, she finally broke down. Very moving and on target with the characterization. Nan: I knew you had spent the 60's in electric Kool-Aid funky Satan groove! Also - glad you went over and checked out the ScoopMe Something Blue review. Of what was available, on both a consistent and timely basis, ScoopMe had about the best reviews out there - not to say they were so exceedingly great all the time. They weren't. But other sites either made you wait for weeks (or months!), and/or were nothing but episode re-hash, and/or were grossly inconsisent. BUT, I think if you take a look at those ScoopMe reviews, you will agree with me that you can easily reach (and, personally, I believe, easily exceed!) the quality. OK. Must go back to gazing at the cover of the TV Guide. Thank you, Spring. Both characters lost so much that day...it only made sense that they would finally start the grieving process together.
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 8, 2003 1:02:51 GMT -5
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Post by Rob on Sept 8, 2003 1:07:08 GMT -5
It's Nan's birthday? Cool. Happy birthday, Nan.
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 8, 2003 1:22:50 GMT -5
Redemption doesn't mean that you no longer bear guilt (remorse). It means that you have made amends; that you have been restored to your "clean" state; that you have been "delivered from sin" and its consequences through sacrifice. Thus, although you might have sacrificed, and are now made "whole", you might very much still feel guilty or remorseful about what you might have done prior to the redemption. By sacrificing himself at the finale of Chosen, Spike essentially redeemed himself. That's why so many of us are so hopeful that Spike might return to Angel in a post-redemptive state. How far can that be taken? If the amulet didn't kill Spike in Chosen does that mean he wouldn't have redeemed himself? Does that mean that Andrew and Willow have not redeemd themselves? What does a post-redemptive state look like? Is it someone who no longer has a special obligation to sacrifice themselves or fight evil (except the normal obligation of helping others)? Please note that I am not nit-picking I am just struggling with the whole redemption thing and what it actually means in real terms. As far as I understand what you have said, Spike's sacrifice constituted amends and therefore whilst he may still experience guilt in AtS, he is under no special obligation to make further amends by helping the fight against evil in the next season. His big sacrifice has removed his guilt in some higher dimension or his big sacrifice has restored his citizenship? I'll use an anlogy to hopefully show you what I mean. (Yes, I know I am overusing the analogies. Unfortunately it is the way I normally think. ![:))](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cheesy.png) A soul is like a piece of paper with any sin being represented by a blot on it. Spike's soul has numerous large, dark blots on it. Therefore to redeem the piece of paper, the blot can be (a) erased or (b) another shining act (self-sacrifice) can distract attention away from the blot(s). My problem is that I am not sure whether you meant (a) or (b), because you referred to a clean slate (a), but said that the sin could not be removed therefore implying (b). I am a very woolly headed wombat! To confuse you even more, is redemption like redeemability in essay writing. If you fail, you can re-submit, but only get a passing grade. Thus, the innocent SiTs who died get the Heavenly equivalent of an A, but Spike will only ever get a pass because he is re-submitting, even though the work is of the same quality? Oh dear! I am getting even more muddled! Hopefully I will have no more thughts on this. My brain is not big enough to cope!
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Post by Kerrie on Sept 8, 2003 1:43:38 GMT -5
Speaking of birthdays one of my friends sent me a birthday present which arrived today. Guess what it was? Good guess! - that's right the second half of season 6. I am so excited. I will watch the overview of season 6, tonight and maybe one of the episodes. I just don't know which one. Buffy doesn't treat Spike very well in any of them. Maybe "Normal Again". My husband and I really liked that one, even if the ending did not make strict sense - JW succumbed to the gimmick. (Yeah, yeah. I know it is not my birthday yet, but it was a DVD shaped parcel for me. What was I supposed to do?!)
Has anyone else noticed the frightening large number of Virgo S'Cubies? We can't all be up-tight kill-joys? Can we? (I know I am, but it is good to have two hobbies, in case the first one becomes boring! ;D)
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Post by William the Bloody on Sept 8, 2003 2:34:17 GMT -5
Yes indeed! Happy birthday! I hope you get your birthday wish to come true. What? You don't make birthday wishes? Well, shame on you! Those are the only ones that ever stand a chance of coming true, you know. It's a special day. It's YOUR day. *hug* I hope you have a great day! ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Vlad
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Post by William the Bloody on Sept 8, 2003 2:37:51 GMT -5
Has anyone else noticed the frightening large number of Virgo S'Cubies? Yes indeed Kerrie....shhhh....It's all a part of our "plot" and you'll give it away too soon. World domination is almost in our grasp. Vlad (Who sincerely believes "Brain" to have been a Virgo...lord knows what Pinky was.)
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Post by William the Bloody on Sept 8, 2003 2:45:09 GMT -5
Rob, I just realized I spoke with others privately about how good Schoolbus Rock was...but I never actually got to say it to your face (so to speak.)
It was marvelous. It was "true." By the time I got near near the end, I was so involved in the story, I was no longer reading a page I was proofing; I was sitting out in that desert with them, the fire crackling, the shadows playing against the rocks and that deep purple and blue sky with the vast array of stars was overhead. I was completely lost in the story and I had a lump in my throat that was huge.
Thank you for writing it and thank you even more for sharing it. You have done something that every writer wants to do...for a few minutes, you made your readers lives (my life anyway) better.
In awe, Vlad
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