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Post by Riff on Mar 18, 2005 4:08:54 GMT -5
Wow. Wes is very bitter and angry and self-righteous. All of which I can buy as the way he would be, under the circumstances. Though I have faith that he'll find some relief and perspective . . . no, I'm not asking for any hints, not really. I wanna be surprised. I always thought Wes's . . . outward anger and bitterness toward others was due, underneath it all, to his own feelings of guilt and anger toward himself - to his own feelings of helplessness. Again, very nice characterizations, and nice continuity slipping in the (at first) Buffy-like "I was in heaven." I think it may be significant that in the dream it is Wes who sends Fred away. He has a tendency to blame himself. His treatment of Angel, Spike, and Gunn could well be an externalisation of this self-hatred. After all, his father isn't physically there laughing - it's obviously a part of Wes's own mind. Part of the "heaven" idea was to imply that the apparent loss of a soul has ramifications in the universe (and also to imply there was a particularly strong bond between Fred and Wes). Thank you for dropping by to comment, Spring! Riff.
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Post by Riff on Mar 18, 2005 4:44:48 GMT -5
Another very good chapter, Riff! I think, in particular, I really like your little touches that ring so true. The fact that Illyria is obsessed with ritual like keeping Wes' calendar up to date. Wes comparing the way he feels to Fred when she just back from the other dimension. Illyria submitting an article, in effect, "for" Wes and Fred!! The different (and totally in character for each) reactions of Angel, Spike, and Gunn. The brief mentions of Wes' father were nicely done - not overwhelming, but as present and important as we know his father's influence must be in Wes. Plus? Creepy! As it should be. (Can you tell I really don't like his dad?) The slightly different twist on the "back from heaven" concept was very interesting. No Fred, so therefore not really perfect. But, I wonder, was there no Fred because her soul was destroyed, or because it is still somewhere inside Illyria? And then the bombshell of the paper title! Neatly done, sir, neatly done! Looking forward to the next bit. Lola Many thanks, Lola! *laughs* Other than from certain Englishmen of a certain age and background, I don’t think Wesley’s father would get many votes in a popularity contest. I suppose that what’s going on here is ultimately hope vs. despair. As for Fred’s soul, I’ll never tell. The paper’s title (the syntax of which is, incidentally, based on the title of one of Einstein’s 1905 papers, work that is regarded as an early step in the quantum hypothesis) contains elements from Fred’s paper in Supersymmetry and one or two other things. I wonder what it’s about? Riff.
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Post by Queen E on Mar 18, 2005 12:46:25 GMT -5
Another great installment; I feel lucky to have been able to watch this fic develop!
What I thought was really intriguing was Wesley's calling Gunn "Charles" just as Fred used to; a nice subtle touch that really emphasized Wes' anger and heartbreak over the events of Season 3, by using the name only Fred ever used.
Also, the sense of "quiet" you bring to the end; nothing's resolved, we don't know what happens next, but still it seems to represent a breath we didn't know we needed...
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 18, 2005 13:04:43 GMT -5
I think it may be significant that in the dream it is Wes who sends Fred away. He has a tendency to blame himself. His treatment of Angel, Spike, and Gunn could well be an externalisation of this self-hatred. After all, his father isn't physically there laughing - it's obviously a part of Wes's own mind. Part of the "heaven" idea was to imply that the apparent loss of a soul has ramifications in the universe (and also to imply there was a particularly strong bond between Fred and Wes). Thank you for dropping by to comment, Spring! Riff. Yes - I liked the way you had Wes mention, to Angel, how Fred's death went back to Angel's decision to help Conner by taking the helm and W&H. And what do you suppose that goes back to, in Wes's mind, as far as how Conner ended up in such bad shape that Angel felt it necessary to take that W&H deal? I truly think that Wes ultimately blamed himself for Fred's death, and that accounted for his seeming complete inability to deal with it.
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Post by Riff on Mar 20, 2005 14:44:18 GMT -5
Another great installment; I feel lucky to have been able to watch this fic develop! What I thought was really intriguing was Wesley's calling Gunn "Charles" just as Fred used to; a nice subtle touch that really emphasized Wes' anger and heartbreak over the events of Season 3, by using the name only Fred ever used. Also, the sense of "quiet" you bring to the end; nothing's resolved, we don't know what happens next, but still it seems to represent a breath we didn't know we needed... Erin! My wonderful beta has stopped by. Some of the lines of dialogue that began to form for this chap involved Wesley using the name “Charles” and I quickly realised that this could only be something very bitter and confrontational. I came to the same conclusion you have. Toward the end, the chap comes full circle, finishing with Wes back behind his desk and pouring himself a drink. There is a sense of the chapter and its tensions winding down. I think that this does feel calm after the harsh events that have come before it. It still isn’t enough, though. I couldn’t possibly allow the chap to end in total gloom, and it seemed logical that Illyria’s article would feature in the chapter’s close. Riff.
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Post by Riff on Mar 20, 2005 14:46:22 GMT -5
Yes - I liked the way you had Wes mention, to Angel, how Fred's death went back to Angel's decision to help Conner by taking the helm and W&H. And what do you suppose that goes back to, in Wes's mind, as far as how Conner ended up in such bad shape that Angel felt it necessary to take that W&H deal? I truly think that Wes ultimately blamed himself for Fred's death, and that accounted for his seeming complete inability to deal with it. Absolutely. Wesley is implicated by his decision to take Connor. I suppose all this ultimately boils down to the question of just how much control the characters really have over their fates. It’s very likely that Wes blamed himself, though the blame may have been partly unconscious. My own view is that this is one of the factors that prevented any chance for him to heal spiritually and emotionally. Another big factor is the idea that Fred’s soul was destroyed. I’ve tried, and I can’t think of a worse thing for Wesley. He’d never get over it. Riff.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Mar 20, 2005 15:32:51 GMT -5
Many thanks, Lola! *laughs* Other than from certain Englishmen of a certain age and background, I don’t think Wesley’s father would get many votes in a popularity contest. I suppose that what’s going on here is ultimately hope vs. despair. As for Fred’s soul, I’ll never tell. The paper’s title (the syntax of which is, incidentally, based on the title of one of Einstein’s 1905 papers, work that is regarded as an early step in the quantum hypothesis) contains elements from Fred’s paper in Supersymmetry and one or two other things. I wonder what it’s about? Riff. I'm hoping firmly convinced that Wes didn't find Fred in heaven because she isn't dead. Anne, , just in case and trying to type with a cat between me and the keyboard
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 20, 2005 15:57:50 GMT -5
Absolutely. Wesley is implicated by his decision to take Connor. I suppose all this ultimately boils down to the question of just how much control the characters really have over their fates. Yes. I don't blame Wes in any way for Fred's death, because I don't think any one person has that kind of control and power. Wes was doing his best and he could never have foreseen the consequences. Agree. I think it is mostly an unconscious thing for Wes, but a big thing that made Fred's death so impossibly hard for him to deal with. Agree that the soul destruction is a huge factor; don't agree that he'd never get over it. That's just because I'm a big believer in the idea that it is possible to get over just about anything, and that it fact, we should always strive (while being patient with ourselves) to do just that. People have, in real life, gotten over much worse. And Wes - he shows many indications of having plenty enough inner strength, if he lets himself access it. Having said that, I do think that, had there been a Season 6, Fred would have come back in some fashion, so "getting over it" for Wes would have been a moot point - though the challenge of learning to live in this harsh world without going totally off your rocker would still have to be faced.
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Post by Karen on Mar 20, 2005 16:56:36 GMT -5
Thank you, Anne! IMO, what we saw in canon was the way Wesley would react to Fred’s mere death, not how he would react to the destruction of her soul. For me, that needed to be shown. Wesley. He’s at his lowest ebb now, and it’s not surprising. He has (in the context of the Jossverse) a fundamentally unnatural loss to deal with. And, of course, he can’t deal with it. I’d say that he’s right on the edge of a doorway into darkness himself. The way he turns on Angel, Spike, and Gunn is an indication of these things, I think. But, there seems to be something about that article that has got him interested despite his feelings. I wonder what that is…? Riff. Oh, that little hopeful pause at the end of the Chapter had me all tingly. Very in character for Wesley to delve into the printed word to maybe pull himself out of his funk and have a feeling of hope again. Loved 3 (to borrow from Makd) this chapter, Riff. I could feel the anger and grief surrounding Wes and the also gang's helplessness and maybe even some fear in the face of it. Looking forward to Chapter 3!
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Post by Riff on Mar 21, 2005 6:36:26 GMT -5
I'm hoping firmly convinced that Wes didn't find Fred in heaven because she isn't dead.Anne, , just in case and trying to type with a cat between me and the keyboard That’s an interesting suggestion. I admire your conviction, Anne. Good for you. Cats. ;D Sometimes they like to be ignored; sometimes they hate it. Very often they jump into whatever we’re doing, as if to say, “Oh, yes. Very clever. Now I’m going to make a mess of it.” *laughs*
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Post by Riff on Mar 21, 2005 6:40:18 GMT -5
Agree that the soul destruction is a huge factor; don't agree that he'd never get over it. That's just because I'm a big believer in the idea that it is possible to get over just about anything, and that it fact, we should always strive (while being patient with ourselves) to do just that. People have, in real life, gotten over much worse. And Wes - he shows many indications of having plenty enough inner strength, if he lets himself access it. Having said that, I do think that, had there been a Season 6, Fred would have come back in some fashion, so "getting over it" for Wes would have been a moot point - though the challenge of learning to live in this harsh world without going totally off your rocker would still have to be faced. I share your faith in humanity, but, IMO, this is something that falls outside that. I’ll explain my reasons, if that’s alright. In many cases the Jossverse can represent the real world symbolically, and the characters’ trials and tribulations can reflect the emotional journeys that real people are on. This, I believe, is not one of those cases. There are two points that I can’t emphasise enough. 1) Unlike the real world, the soul and life after death are not matters for speculation, debate, and faith in the Jossverse. They are concrete facts. The idea that people live on is as definite as gravity (maybe even more so). 2) We know that Wes has been aware of the supernatural from a young age, and, as a boy, even tried to resurrect a bird. He’s probably been aware of the soul and life after death for almost as long as he can remember. So all his life he’s lived with the certainty that the human self is permanent, not disposable. I have to humbly disagree that people in reality have dealt with worse things than what Wesley believes happened to Fred, because I can not see any equivalent for this in reality. If we consider a soul to be eternal, infinitely enduring, then the destruction of a soul is an infinite tragedy, an infinite loss, grief to the infinite power. And how does one get over the infinite? I think that Wes would be very disturbed to learn even that the soul of a stranger had been destroyed, but for this to happen to Fred would be worse, infinitely worse, than his darkest fears. It would mean that what is for him the dearest thing in existence, something which by every law of the universe was permanent, has been uniquely obliterated. Also, though this is a detail by comparison, the mere existence of Fred proves to Wes that the world is a good place and worth fighting for (as his words to Angel in Smile Time strongly imply). I believe that her death would not change this, but her absolute loss might. Wesley being the way he is, he might have been able to claw back some ability to function, but he would not heal, IMO. He’d never be left with a scar – it would always be an open wound. It’s too much. I honestly don’t think he could recover. I certainly couldn’t. Then again, we never know for certain what will happen… Riff.
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Post by Riff on Mar 21, 2005 6:42:57 GMT -5
Oh, that little hopeful pause at the end of the Chapter had me all tingly. Very in character for Wesley to delve into the printed word to maybe pull himself out of his funk and have a feeling of hope again. Loved 3 (to borrow from Makd) this chapter, Riff. I could feel the anger and grief surrounding Wes and the also gang's helplessness and maybe even some fear in the face of it. Looking forward to Chapter 3! I’m pleased you enjoyed it, Karen. Thank you! You’re absolutely right. If there’s one thing that Wes is likely to feel more comfortable with than the presence of the FG at the moment, it’s reading alone. He’s strong, but obviously he can’t do it all by himself (though occasionally, perhaps because of events in Season 3, he seems to believe that relying on others is a failure). He has the strength to come back, but first something has to happen. Otherwise, he’s stuck, IMO. It was actually a very difficult chapter to write, emotionally. It is necessary, though, for several reasons, not least for establishing a few things. The way Wesley is at the moment, confrontation between him and the others seems inevitable. The real trigger is when he begins see Angel as voicing his Father’s world view. I’m very much looking forward to learning what you think of Chapter 3! Riff.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 21, 2005 9:30:13 GMT -5
I share your faith in humanity, but, IMO, this is something that falls outside that. I’ll explain my reasons, if that’s alright. In many cases the Jossverse can represent the real world symbolically, and the characters’ trials and tribulations can reflect the emotional journeys that real people are on. This, I believe, is not one of those cases. There are two points that I can’t emphasise enough. 1) Unlike the real world, the soul and life after death are not matters for speculation, debate, and faith in the Jossverse. They are concrete facts. The idea that people live on is as definite as gravity (maybe even more so). 2) We know that Wes has been aware of the supernatural from a young age, and, as a boy, even tried to resurrect a bird. He’s probably been aware of the soul and life after death for almost as long as he can remember. So all his life he’s lived with the certainty that the human self is permanent, not disposable. I have to humbly disagree that people in reality have dealt with worse things than what Wesley believes happened to Fred, because I can not see any equivalent for this in reality. If we consider a soul to be eternal, infinitely enduring, then the destruction of a soul is an infinite tragedy, an infinite loss, grief to the infinite power. And how does one get over the infinite? Wonderful points, and thanks for your thoughtful response. The equivalent, in the real world (or worse) for me is this: There are people who do not believe in any type of soul or eternal life. When their loved ones leave this world, they believe that life to be wholly extinguished. Their loss is forever. Some people lose/have lost entire families, spouses, children - even all at once. People who they've known for much longer, who meant far more to them (likely) than Fred meant to Wes. And they get over it. But even beyond that, even if you do believe in a soul and continuing eternal life - I just can't buy that Wes's grief would be somehow greater than the grief of say . . . persons whose entire families were obliterated in WWII concentration camps. It's loss, no matter how you look at it. It's huge, leaves an enormous hole in your heart loss. I think this kind of thing is mostly self-fulfilling prophecy: If you tell yourself the loss is too great to get over, then you won't get over it. Again - I think of this as self-fullfilling prophecy. Tell yourself you can never heal and will always have an open wound, and indeed, you will. Having said all that, though - I do think there is a sense that such huge loss is always with you (scars and such). But - I think that not only can a person get over ANY loss, they can actually turn it into a plus in their life. They have to believe that, and allow that to happen though. The biggest challenge is allowing something good to come out of tragedy, for yourself and others - it feels like such a betrayal to your beloved. Like you're forgetting them, like it is wrong to say "I can get over your loss, I can even make something good come out of it for me." Well - kind of a depressing topic, and definitely one where many different philosophies are held. But that's mine. I have lots of sympathy and tons of patience with folks going through the kind of loss we are talking about here. But I do strongly believe that full recovery (not back to who you were - that is impossible - but forward to being someone better, stronger, -and yes, even happier) is both possible and probable, if you allow first for the possibility, and then for the actual process.
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Post by Riff on Mar 21, 2005 13:42:00 GMT -5
Wonderful points, and thanks for your thoughtful response. The equivalent, in the real world (or worse) for me is this: There are people who do not believe in any type of soul or eternal life. When their loved ones leave this world, they believe that life to be wholly extinguished. Their loss is forever. Some people lose/have lost entire families, spouses, children - even all at once. People who they've known for much longer, who meant far more to them (likely) than Fred meant to Wes. And they get over it. But even beyond that, even if you do believe in a soul and continuing eternal life - I just can't buy that Wes's grief would be somehow greater than the grief of say . . . persons whose entire families were obliterated in WWII concentration camps. It's loss, no matter how you look at it. It's huge, leaves an enormous hole in your heart loss. I think this kind of thing is mostly self-fulfilling prophecy: If you tell yourself the loss is too great to get over, then you won't get over it. And thank you, Spring. You bring up some important and fascinating issues. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree to a certain extent, but I also believe we can meet halfway in some areas. You pre-empted this, but I’ll just repeat that my position is based on the idea that a soul, which should have been eternal, was allegedly destroyed. I regard this as different to the sorrow which can result from real people’s belief that there is no soul and that death is the end, because in the former case a certainty is shattered. But I see this can be a fine distinction, and that it is, of course, a matter of opinion. My own opinion I think emerges from my belief that one job of fiction (not just fantasy) is to is to show us things and people that are greater than ourselves and our lives, things which we cannot experience and people which we cannot be or know, but which something in us recognises, fears, or aspires to. I don’t mean that these things and people are completely separate from us because they aren’t real: in a way we pin our more modest (by which I mean real) joys, sorrows, and passions to the bigger events that larger-than-life fictional people experience. I can think of Wes and Fred that way. The argument can be made that Fred means more to Wes than anyone means to anyone in reality, that they are literally perfect partners. *laughing* I wouldn’t be surprised if you think I’m getting totally carried away with ‘ship bias (well, okay, perhaps there’s a little bit of that ), but I stumbled across what I consider to be very good canonical support for my case. We’ll get to that much later in the fic. But you raise some interesting questions. Your example of the extermination camps is an excellent one, because you are alluding to an instance of something real which did approach the mythic proportions of fiction. While many Nazis were probably common-or-garden wicked, or people who were just caught up in something, some were, IMO, as close to genuine Evil as it’s possible for human beings (outside fiction) to be. Also, what you say about the deaths of entire families is significant. I hope you don’t think that, in my talk of fiction and myth being greater than us, I’m belittling the very real losses we all have to face, and the truly horrific losses that some of us are unlucky enough to face. Yes, I do believe that fictional people can “experience” sorrows far greater than ours, but only by virtue of the fact that those people and sorrows are not real outside our imaginations. While I would not see Wes’s anguish as equivalent to something in reality, I can agree that it can correlates to some degree with a real horror like the deaths of one’s entire family. Spike knows this. We’ll get to that later, too. We disagree on the idea that Wes has to deal with something distinct from any of the losses that real people have to face. I believe my side of this because I think the spit between fiction and reality allows for the distinction. Your philosophy is a wonderful and life-affirming one and I think that in the real world it works. It’s just that to me fiction (even the most “realist” fiction) operates on a different set of rules to reality, and so your philosophy may not necessarily apply to it. Of course, in fiction all bets are off, so I won’t make a definite statement. If epic grief can exist there, then so can epic recovery, so you may be right… This is just my take on things. As I said, we will probably have to agree to disagree on some of these issues. All I can do is beg your patience and ask that you give me the benefit of the doubt for a little while. Riff.
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Post by SpringSummers on Mar 21, 2005 19:05:13 GMT -5
And thank you, Spring. You bring up some important and fascinating issues. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree to a certain extent, but I also believe we can meet halfway in some areas. You pre-empted this, but I’ll just repeat that my position is based on the idea that a soul, which should have been eternal, was allegedly destroyed. I regard this as different to the sorrow which can result from real people’s belief that there is no soul and that death is the end, because in the former case a certainty is shattered. But I see this can be a fine distinction, and that it is, of course, a matter of opinion. My own opinion I think emerges from my belief that one job of fiction (not just fantasy) is to is to show us things and people that are greater than ourselves and our lives, things which we cannot experience and people which we cannot be or know, but which something in us recognises, fears, or aspires to. I don’t mean that these things and people are completely separate from us because they aren’t real: in a way we pin our more modest (by which I mean real) joys, sorrows, and passions to the bigger events that larger-than-life fictional people experience. I can think of Wes and Fred that way. The argument can be made that Fred means more to Wes than anyone means to anyone in reality, that they are literally perfect partners. *laughing* I wouldn’t be surprised if you think I’m getting totally carried away with ‘ship bias (well, okay, perhaps there’s a little bit of that ), but I stumbled across what I consider to be very good canonical support for my case. We’ll get to that much later in the fic. But you raise some interesting questions. Your example of the extermination camps is an excellent one, because you are alluding to an instance of something real which did approach the mythic proportions of fiction. While many Nazis were probably common-or-garden wicked, or people who were just caught up in something, some were, IMO, as close to genuine Evil as it’s possible for human beings (outside fiction) to be. Also, what you say about the deaths of entire families is significant. I hope you don’t think that, in my talk of fiction and myth being greater than us, I’m belittling the very real losses we all have to face, and the truly horrific losses that some of us are unlucky enough to face. Yes, I do believe that fictional people can “experience” sorrows far greater than ours, but only by virtue of the fact that those people and sorrows are not real outside our imaginations. While I would not see Wes’s anguish as equivalent to something in reality, I can agree that it can correlates to some degree with a real horror like the deaths of one’s entire family. Spike knows this. We’ll get to that later, too. We disagree on the idea that Wes has to deal with something distinct from any of the losses that real people have to face. I believe my side of this because I think the spit between fiction and reality allows for the distinction. Your philosophy is a wonderful and life-affirming one and I think that in the real world it works. It’s just that to me fiction (even the most “realist” fiction) operates on a different set of rules to reality, and so your philosophy may not necessarily apply to it. Of course, in fiction all bets are off, so I won’t make a definite statement. If epic grief can exist there, then so can epic recovery, so you may be right… This is just my take on things. As I said, we will probably have to agree to disagree on some of these issues. All I can do is beg your patience and ask that you give me the benefit of the doubt for a little while. Riff. I think of the Jossverse as an operatic version of real life, and I think of "your life is what ultimately what you make it" as one of the tenants of the Jossverse. So - I agree with you that the struggles we see (the loves, the grieving, etc) are "larger than life." But I think that the . . . course of things, in the Jossverse, is meant to follow reality. Everything is very . . . emotionally true, it resonates in real life. To give an example, Buffy's grief at being "pulled out of heaven" is something fantastic that we cannot really ever know. And the way she deals with the loss is also fantastical - wild sex with a vampire and all that. But it resonates in what happens in real life, when one experiences great loss and becomes suicidally depressed - and also, as in real life, Buffy DOES get over it after time and experience play their part, and when she allows for it. You put it well when you said, above: "If epic grief can exist there, then so can epic recovery . . ." This is just what I mean. So - I remember I ended my The Body review by thanking Joss for "turning everything into a story, without turning anything into a lie." And what I meant by that was that though the characters go through - and I agree with you here - unknowably grand-scale emotional highs and lows, what happens to them stays true to human nature. And yes, certainly, there is plenty of room for legit disagreement, but the idea that there is such a thing as "an emotional loss you cannot recover from" isn't true to my understanding of human nature. I am sure my objectivity is clouded by having watched my own mother recover from losses, losses that were unimaginable to sheltered American me. They were losses due to being in Europe in WWII (I'm sure you have plenty more exposure to this than me). And then I watched her get over Dad's death, and maintain cheerfulness despite Parkinson's that robbed her even of her ability (eventually) to move and talk. So - I just think that the human spirit can overcome anything. Not that every human being always manages this - they don't. And that is also very human and understandable. But I think the possiblity of emotional recovery from loss always - always -exists. I have enjoyed discussing this with you. As far as agreeing to disagree and all that - no worries! I am happy to disagree to disagree, or agree to disagree. I look forward to your next chapter!
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