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Post by Riff on Mar 23, 2005 13:38:50 GMT -5
I think of the Jossverse as an operatic version of real life, and I think of "your life is what ultimately what you make it" as one of the tenants of the Jossverse. So - I agree with you that the struggles we see (the loves, the grieving, etc) are "larger than life." But I think that the . . . course of things, in the Jossverse, is meant to follow reality. Everything is very . . . emotionally true, it resonates in real life. To give an example, Buffy's grief at being "pulled out of heaven" is something fantastic that we cannot really ever know. And the way she deals with the loss is also fantastical - wild sex with a vampire and all that. But it resonates in what happens in real life, when one experiences great loss and becomes suicidally depressed - and also, as in real life, Buffy DOES get over it after time and experience play their part, and when she allows for it. You put it well when you said, above: "If epic grief can exist there, then so can epic recovery . . ." This is just what I mean. So - I remember I ended my The Body review by thanking Joss for "turning everything into a story, without turning anything into a lie." And what I meant by that was that though the characters go through - and I agree with you here - unknowably grand-scale emotional highs and lows, what happens to them stays true to human nature. And yes, certainly, there is plenty of room for legit disagreement, but the idea that there is such a thing as "an emotional loss you cannot recover from" isn't true to my understanding of human nature. I am sure my objectivity is clouded by having watched my own mother recover from losses, losses that were unimaginable to sheltered American me. They were losses due to being in Europe in WWII (I'm sure you have plenty more exposure to this than me). And then I watched her get over Dad's death, and maintain cheerfulness despite Parkinson's that robbed her even of her ability (eventually) to move and talk. So - I just think that the human spirit can overcome anything. Not that every human being always manages this - they don't. And that is also very human and understandable. But I think the possiblity of emotional recovery from loss always - always -exists. I have enjoyed discussing this with you. As far as agreeing to disagree and all that - no worries! I am happy to disagree to disagree, or agree to disagree. I look forward to your next chapter! It’s one of those tricky and ambiguous issues that we as viewers must deal with – the characters in the Jossverse face larger-than-life traumas and have larger-than-life emotions to go with them. But does this nevertheless resonate with real people’s real experiences? I’m not certain that it does in every case, but it’s perfectly valid and in keeping with the shows themselves for you to see the Jossverse in this way. I must acknowledge that in the case of Buffy’s return from heaven, you add considerable credibility to your argument. As you say, here we see someone facing the infinite, something unimaginable for us, and yet she does ultimately recover. It’s possible that there is a difference between BtVS and AtS on some of these points. I think that in AtS in particular doubts are raised as to whether we really can make what we want from what life throws at us. There is a definite friction between ideas of free will and predestination in one form or another. This is never really settled. BTW, I would say that your opinions here are your own rational position, informed by experience, not a case of clouded objectivity. None of us can be absolutely objective, anyway. I hope that, throughout the fic, some of the things we’ve had such a fascinating and (certainly to me) rewarding discussion on are explored. And I’m just the writer, I can’t really tell the characters what to do and how to react. Wes may well be tougher than I think. I’m interested to know what you make of the next chapter! Riff.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Mar 24, 2005 11:09:48 GMT -5
I just read the first line of Chapter 3.
That is just so good - Raymond Chandler, in Angel's voice. Wow.
Fred sent a coded message. Oh my goddess. I just love the Holmes reference, too.
Oh, Riff. I've got goosebumps, and tears in my eyes. There is hope.
You've really never written fan fiction before? I'm finding that hard to believe - you have the characters down so beautifully.
Anne, happy dancing woman
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Post by Queen E on Mar 24, 2005 11:32:07 GMT -5
I just read the first line of Chapter 3. That is just so good - Raymond Chandler, in Angel's voice. Wow. Fred sent a coded message. Oh my goddess. I just love the Holmes reference, too. Oh, Riff. I've got goosebumps, and tears in my eyes. There is hope. You've really never written fan fiction before? I'm finding that hard to believe - you have the characters down so beautifully. Anne, happy dancing woman Hee! I loved that opening too; especially since it's a callback to the very the first line from the very first episode of Angel: "Los Angeles. You see it at night and it shines. A beacon. People are drawn to it. People and other things. They come for all sorts of reasons. My reason? No surprise there. It started with a girl."
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Post by Riff on Mar 24, 2005 15:07:43 GMT -5
I just read the first line of Chapter 3. That is just so good - Raymond Chandler, in Angel's voice. Wow. Fred sent a coded message. Oh my goddess. I just love the Holmes reference, too. Oh, Riff. I've got goosebumps, and tears in my eyes. There is hope. You've really never written fan fiction before? I'm finding that hard to believe - you have the characters down so beautifully. Anne, happy dancing woman *happy smile* {{Anne}} That’s more than a reward for my efforts. I’m so pleased you feel happy about this chapter. Mind you, the characters don’t seem all that happy. They aren’t out of the woods, any of them… As for the opening, I’m afraid I can only take credit for the fourth sentence. The first three are from Angel’s monologue at the start of City of Angels. I suppose I was looking for a that-was-him-then-and-this-is-him-now effect, what with everything that has happened, and all that has gone. I have honestly never written fanfic before, but I have written creatively prior to this. This is the first time I’ve ever worked with characters that aren’t my own, and I became quite immersed as I was writing. Thank you so much for what you say about the characters. I do my best to just let them speak and act, but it’s hard for me to judge. Riff. (*also dancing*)
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Post by Riff on Mar 24, 2005 15:08:13 GMT -5
Hee! I loved that opening too; especially since it's a callback to the very the first line from the very first episode of Angel: "Los Angeles. You see it at night and it shines. A beacon. People are drawn to it. People and other things. They come for all sorts of reasons. My reason? No surprise there. It started with a girl." *grins* See above.
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Post by Pixi on Mar 24, 2005 15:20:11 GMT -5
I approached the chapter with trepidation, afraid of more angst (not that angst is bad but Wesley is one of my favorite characters and I hate seeing him so miserable) and the tone immediately felt very film noir for me - one of my favorite genres. The feeling, the moment between the men as they contemplate what just occurred did indeed feel very natural and in character voice. But, as a diehard mystery fan, I must admit I enjoyed the twist into eirie Koontzlike science as a clue is revealed and perceptions are twisted. I very much enjoyed this chapter. Kudos!
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Post by Riff on Mar 24, 2005 15:28:10 GMT -5
I approached the chapter with trepidation, afraid of more angst (not that angst is bad but Wesley is one of my favorite characters and I hate seeing him so miserable) and the tone immediately felt very film noir for me - one of my favorite genres. The feeling, the moment between the men as they contemplate what just occurred did indeed feel very natural and in character voice. But, as a diehard mystery fan, I must admit I enjoyed the twist into eirie Koontzlike science as a clue is revealed and perceptions are twisted. I very much enjoyed this chapter. Kudos! Thank you, Pixi! The movement this chapter takes was great fun to write. I'm glad you found something there to enjoy, too. Riff.
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Post by Karen on Mar 25, 2005 16:24:56 GMT -5
While reading, I found myself sympathizing with Angel as Wesley was discussing Illyria's article. And then I had a 2001: A Space Odyssy moment with the MESSAGES. I love it!
All the little details coming together so nicely - just a beautiful thing. They were played! I KNEW it! Very nice on picking up on the difference between Knox's use of 'it' and 'she' and the moment when he used that made Gunn realize Knox was lying. Ah - so good!
So many other neat details - like 'soulmates' and Angel considering making Wesley forget Fred. I'm excited for the next installment. Thanks, Riff. *hug*
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Mar 25, 2005 21:57:48 GMT -5
Riff, just finished your third chapter - what fun!! In a breathless kind of way - I loved the tension between Angel and Spike, Spike's words about soulmates... then Wes, with your wonderful cipher - and The Dancing Men...I love Sherlock Holmes - it was so much fun to watch Gunn and Angel and Spike try to understand what the heck Wes was telling them!
Again I'm so happy with this - it's terrific! The chapters are too short though...
two words.
foolscap pad.
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Post by Riff on Mar 26, 2005 9:25:59 GMT -5
While reading, I found myself sympathizing with Angel as Wesley was discussing Illyria's article. And then I had a 2001: A Space Odyssy moment with the MESSAGES. I love it! All the little details coming together so nicely - just a beautiful thing. They were played! I KNEW it! Very nice on picking up on the difference between Knox's use of 'it' and 'she' and the moment when he used that made Gunn realize Knox was lying. Ah - so good! So many other neat details - like 'soulmates' and Angel considering making Wesley forget Fred. I'm excited for the next installment. Thanks, Riff. *hug* {{Karen}} One reason for mentioning Sherlock Holmes is that Wes has quite a Holmes-like role in this chap. Angel, then, has the role of Watson at this point, the person of above-average intelligence (because in the stories Watson is nothing like that old bumbler Nigel Bruce, of course) through whose eyes the reader is given the “detective’s” deductions. A 2001: A Space Odyssey moment? *smiles* I’ve never heard that one before. It’s very flattering. I’m pleased you liked some individual moments and themes, though it’s difficult for me to comment on some of that without posting spoilers on myself. ;D Riff.
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Post by Riff on Mar 26, 2005 9:29:12 GMT -5
Riff, just finished your third chapter - what fun!! In a breathless kind of way - I loved the tension between Angel and Spike, Spike's words about soulmates... then Wes, with your wonderful cipher - and The Dancing Men...I love Sherlock Holmes - it was so much fun to watch Gunn and Angel and Spike try to understand what the heck Wes was telling them! Again I'm so happy with this - it's terrific! The chapters are too short though... two words. foolscap pad. Many thanks, Patti! I enjoyed watching Gunn, Spike, and Angel trying to work out what was going on, too, as I was writing it. ;D Another reason Holmes is mentioned in this chapter (see above) is that the whole chap is really about decoding of one sort or another. I hope there is an element of the detective story (or stories) in the fic, and so Holmes is invoked here in part to emphasise this. As for the soul-mates thing, Spike seemed like the right person to mention that, I thought. So, foolscap pad. Is that not a term in the US? *sighs* And I tried to be so careful about that sort of thing. I hold Erin responsible. BTW, the chapters get quite a bit longer as we go along… Riff.
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Post by Jan on Mar 30, 2005 11:30:16 GMT -5
Many thanks, Patti! I enjoyed watching Gunn, Spike, and Angel trying to work out what was going on, too, as I was writing it. ;D Another reason Holmes is mentioned in this chapter (see above) is that the whole chap is really about decoding of one sort or another. I hope there is an element of the detective story (or stories) in the fic, and so Holmes is invoked here in part to emphasise this. As for the soul-mates thing, Spike seemed like the right person to mention that, I thought. So, foolscap pad. Is that not a term in the US? *sighs* And I tried to be so careful about that sort of thing. I hold Erin responsible. BTW, the chapters get quite a bit longer as we go along… Riff. Assuming that foolscap means cheap paper, almost like newsprint and often yellow, yes we do have that here. But I haven't heard the word in quite a while. Riff, I just read Chapters 2 & 3 together. Many frissons. One really big laugh: A surge of dislike passed through Angel. “I never knew you were such a romantic,” he said in a flat voice. A surprised look appeared on Spike’s features. “I wasn’t, really. A bit late for that. I was more of a neo-Romantic Revivalist.” I have decided to wait until the whole fic is posted before reading the rest. It's too good to sip. I want to chug-a-lug.
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Post by Riff on Mar 30, 2005 12:31:26 GMT -5
Assuming that foolscap means cheap paper, almost like newsprint and often yellow, yes we do have that here. But I haven't heard the word in quite a while. Riff, I just read Chapters 2 & 3 together. Many frissons. One really big laugh: A surge of dislike passed through Angel. “I never knew you were such a romantic,” he said in a flat voice. A surprised look appeared on Spike’s features. “I wasn’t, really. A bit late for that. I was more of a neo-Romantic Revivalist.” I have decided to wait until the whole fic is posted before reading the rest. It's too good to sip. I want to chug-a-lug. It’s very kind of you to say that. And please read the fic anyway you want to – it’s wonderful just that you’re reading it! And also: ;D. I hope you’ll find a few more laughs along the way. BTW, foolscap is just everyday notepaper for us, lined and A4 size (that’s our most standard paper size).
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Post by Karen on Mar 30, 2005 13:00:44 GMT -5
{{Karen}} One reason for mentioning Sherlock Holmes is that Wes has quite a Holmes-like role in this chap. Angel, then, has the role of Watson at this point, the person of above-average intelligence (because in the stories Watson is nothing like that old bumbler Nigel Bruce, of course) through whose eyes the reader is given the “detective’s” deductions. A 2001: A Space Odyssey moment? *smiles* I’ve never heard that one before. It’s very flattering. I’m pleased you liked some individual moments and themes, though it’s difficult for me to comment on some of that without posting spoilers on myself. ;D Riff. I'll correct my statement to a '2010 - The Year we Make Contact" - your 'messages' reminded me of those messages in the sky. I don't understand the physics/math entirely (who does?), but it's always been something that pushed my buttons.
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Post by Riff on Mar 30, 2005 14:02:47 GMT -5
I'll correct my statement to a '2010 - The Year we Make Contact" - your 'messages' reminded me of those messages in the sky. I don't understand the physics/math entirely (who does?), but it's always been something that pushed my buttons. *smiles* It also pushes my buttons. There may be some more of it to come.
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