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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 7:41:54 GMT -5
Interesting point about how gentle Spike is with the ‘bot. When it comes to the real Buffy & Spike’s sexploits, I agree he wants to please Buffy. If he thinks she likes it rough, it’s rough, etc. But that attempted rape is about Spike and his desperation. He’s so far gone he’s blocking out signals from Buffy, and he gets none from the chip. So –soulless - he has no ZERO chance to realize on his own that what he is doing is wrong until she sends him flying.
If Buffy hadn’t been so strong, Spike would have raped her. That look in his eyes was terrifying and unmistakable (Marsters is amazing here. I hate to think what it costs to dig that far down into yourself and then expose what you find to your coworkers and the cameras).
But the attack is – to me - easily forgivable now. Only the First Evil seems to have (unfortunately!) realized what an extraordinary person William must have been to have managed to reassert himself as a glimmer of guilt within that nasty, nasty demon - and what an extraordinary vampire Spike must have been to have followed that tiny light, even if, in his anger and confusion, he didn’t really even understand what he was doing.
Spike’s whole journey is just fascinating in the way it makes us explore ourselves. It’s touching and remarkable and very well done by all involved.
I am curious what you all think about why Buffy took Dawn to Spike’s crypt shortly after the attack, over Xander’s understandable objections. What were Buffy’s motives and what were the writers trying to convey?
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 16:45:42 GMT -5
:I am curious what you all think about why Buffy took Dawn to Spike’s crypt shortly after the attack, over Xander’s understandable objections. What were Buffy’s motives and what were the writers trying to convey? : Buffy know that Spike has never attempted to hurt Dawn. He's loved and protected her from the first. He's endured torture to shield her. He's battled forces much stronger than himself to help her. He listens to her and takes her seriously when everyone else either underestimates or ignores her. And it isn't an attempt to get in good with Buffy. Spike was Dawn's guardian and protector when Buffy was dead and he thought he'd never see her again. Dawn's his "Little Bit" his "Niblet". I think she's the child he can never have. Buffy knows this. If Spike can never be trusted with Buffy; he can ALWAYS be trusted with Dawn.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 16:46:33 GMT -5
:Interesting point about how gentle Spike is with the ‘bot. When it comes to the real Buffy & Spike’s sexploits, I agree he wants to please Buffy. If he thinks she likes it rough, it’s rough, etc If I recall Spikes likes it just as rough as Buffy, if not more. He and Drusilla are into pain, chains and other S&M jewels. Even Harmony comments (ding bat that she is) after Spike mentions chains, that just because Dufus was into that before he pulls her hair and says "Drusilla, say it" After killing his first slayer during the Boxer Rebellion, he and Drusilla make love while the slayer lies dead on the ground. This is not a man who is always soft and tender. To say that Buffy is making him do these things is a little off the mark for me.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 16:47:19 GMT -5
To Spring Summers re Misc.-All Things Spike #14 - You said, "Also, Alexandra, you’re waiting for the bloopers to be shown? As Jonathan once said to Spike: “Is that some kind of British slang?” ‘Cause I don’t think they’re gonna show them." I'm assuming you want the definition of bloopers. They are the outtakes from filming a show or a movie. The Jackie Chan movies always have the outtakes or bloopers on at the end of his movies. They are usually flubbed lines or movements where the actors start laughing at their mistakes. Also, one of the writers (Marti Noxon?) said there was much more footage on the Spuffy moment behind the Doublemeat Palace that was very steamy. It was cut from the episode (probably for time's sake). Darn it. Especially hoping that will show up as a blooper.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 16:47:54 GMT -5
Alexandra, thanks for starting this thread where we can take on this topic with a little more breadth than most other boards. (Except, still with the drooling). I've read some of the papers someone brough up but need to look at them again before really discussing them, altho I'd like to.I'm not an academic, but I'm really into symbolism and mythology and how, in particular, the vampire myth really touches some primal part of out being. Blood, fear, sex, death, eternal youth and "life", but at the price of banishment from light,hope, goodness, love and redemption. And then there's that liberating glee in Spike's casual evil that is just so bad-dog sexy that we want to pet it, (as opposed to Hannibal Lecter evil that makes us want to run and hide gibbering in the closet,)and yet we want, and believe in his redemption. *Life's a funny thing.*
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 16:48:50 GMT -5
What Spike said about torture to Angelus was that he wasn't "much for the pre-show". And about the hard wild sex with Buffy, he told her he was "just trying to keep up". He'll do what his lady wants, but he's really never stopped being a romantic.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 16:49:28 GMT -5
My take is that Sweet William was a very repressed momma's boy who was everybody's pet dog to kick for fun. (In the alley with Dru he said his mother was expecting him.) He was finally kicked one too many times by his "goddess" Cecily. Dru turned him and he became Dru's "bad doggie" with a vengeance. But I think he was still reacting to someone else for their approval. Good doggie, bad doggie, both still trying to get petted and loved. In the end, it never worked because Cecily rejected him outright, and Dru chose Angel again the moment he turned back into Angelus, even though Spike had spent 100 years devoting himself to her. Well, now Spike is in love again, something he does rarely. But when he does, it is with great loyalty, protectiveness, and devotion. I haven't been convinced the his love is really obsession. We saw him steal a sweater and photos, etc. of Buffy but I saw the behavior as more adolescent than obsessive. In 125+ years, Spike never grew up. He played at bad doggie for Dru but it wasn't really him. He likes to think he was truly evil (by recounting his crimes to Buffy in the basement) but it wasn't an end for him - only a means to be accepted. He did many evil things (so easy as a vampire without a conscience) but I think partly why Spike is different from the stock vampire (and he would be greatly insulted to hear it) was his heart wasn't really in it. It's still all about being loved (as he said on the cross in "Beneath You") - why he had the capacity to become a better man when the chip kept him from killing. And why he took the next step and went through torture to get a soul. I hope he is waking up to the fact that he has to love himself first before he can be successful in a mutual love. Not there yet, but if he can ever get past his remorse ( a BIG if), he has a shot. Part of the equation has to be validation by someone else that he thinks a lot of, namely Buffy. Then I think he can take it from there. Of course, with Season 7 looking like the last one, he'll have to hurry.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 16:52:55 GMT -5
Angel has a son now. Angel has a soul. Vampires with souls are extremely scarce, so little would be known about the souled!vampire subspecies. If a vampire gets a soul, does he/she also get back the ability to reproduce? What else besides a soul is returned to the vamp? We know a conscience is part of the package. Perhaps Spike should get himself checked and in the meantime buy a box of (bent) condoms.
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 16:53:33 GMT -5
I'm enjoying this discussion. Just so far found nothing to add to it. I need a new episode to think about! Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 16:54:45 GMT -5
:Spike likes it just as rough as Buffy, if not more. He and Drusilla are into pain, chains and other S&M jewels. ... After killing his first slayer ... he and Drusilla make love while the slayer lies dead on the ground. This is not a man who is always soft and tender. To say that Buffy is making him do these things is a little off the mark for me. : You're talking about the pre-Buffy Spike. And you're right. But a lot of that is because it's what DRUSILLA wants. The sex with Buffy is rough because that's what he perceives BUFFY wants. He doesn't mind. He tells her in (I think) "Gone" that she makes it hurt 'in all the wrong places'. Spike always tries to please his lady. But since he was chipped and fell in love his personal tastes have changed. He doesn't do the chains and S&M things with the 'bot. He could. The 'bot would not only have let him, it would have cooperated and even encouraged him in any way he programmed it. With the 'bot Spike can have what SPIKE wants. And Spike chooses tenderness.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 16:55:45 GMT -5
Alexandra – I was kidding about the bloopers. Guess I didn’t pull that off too well. Love your bag-dog analysis. I am hoping that Spike uses his new-found soulfulness to become a better man – for his own sake. He needs to move past the “it's all about you Buffy” mind-set, and on to an “ it’s all about you, Spring” mind-set . . . uh, I mean he has become a full person in his own right, he has to love himself. Oh no Torah, I did not mean to suggest that Buffy “makes” Spike have rough sex with her. No way! True, his choices are all about what he thinks (correctly or incorrectly) will please his lady. But he is still responsible for ALL his choices. He deserves the blame for his part in any bad activity, and the credit for the good things he’s done, like trying to save Dawn. If you’re going to blame him for the bad, you’ve got to credit him for the good; if you’re not going to hold him responsible for the bad, then you can’t credit him for the good either. I prefer the former – hold him responsible for both. It is way past time for Spike to establish his own identity. I doubt it will include the S&M stuff we saw before; Giles mentioned early in the Season that it always comes back to who you originally were, and for Spike, that’s William. NAN!: Lurk as long as you like, but when you’re ready, let’s hear your thoughts on this stuff.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 16:57:19 GMT -5
Yes, I do think you are right, Diane, that Buffy taking Dawn to the crypt was meant to show Buffy's continuing trust in Spike. I think Buffy wanted to move past that nasty bathroom incident almost right away. Did anyone else get the feeling it was also about Buffy wanting to check up on Spike? She knew he was a mess when he left her place, and she knows him well enough to know he might do something crazy and rash (which, of course, he did do). OLDER & FAR AWAY: This was repeated on FX last night, the one where they are trapped in the house. It occurred to me there might be some deliberate significance assigned to two things: -Buffy unintentionally brings a demon home because she's attracted to the sword. She can't have the sword without the demon, so she has to destroy it. I say, sword = phallic symbol. -Spike is trapped in a house with Buffy because of curse cast by "Cecily". He tries to get out, and he even manages a tiny move, but he can't. This season, "Cecily" dies. Maybe this means Spike will finally be released from the "curse" she cast on him back in 1880 when her rejection resulted in him being vamped. Edited By Spring Summers at 12/11/2002 9:24:00 AM.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 16:58:12 GMT -5
:Spike is 23 trapped in a house with Buffy because of curse cast by "Cecily". ... This season, "Cecily" dies. : HALFREK is dead. We don't know whether Halfrek and Cecily are the same person. They were PLAYED by the same person-- but it's never been established. It's only been hinted that she MIGHT be.
Diane U
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 17:16:32 GMT -5
Spring Summers wrote: "I am curious what you all think about why Buffy took Dawn to Spike’s crypt shortly after the attack, over Xander’s understandable objections. What were Buffy’s motives and what were the writers trying to convey?" I think the MAIN reason is that Buffy believed that despite everything, Spike could still be trusted - period. I believe there's no way in HELL she would've taken Dawn there otherwise that soon afterward. She knows Spike loves her (and Dawn, although she (Buffy is the center of his world) more than his entire existence. She knows over and over again he's proven that before; in total context, his one desperate moment of indescretion really does not and cannot compare. I think that, as upset as she was at the time, Buffy likely realized in retrospect that Spike really meant her no harm in the bathroom. She herself had recently confessed to Tara her own guilt about how she herself had been treating him badly. Spike was at the end of his rope with feelings too strong for even him to handle, that wasn't prepared to deal with other than how they had "communicated" in the past, having been driven nearly out of his mind by mixed signals at best and emotional / physical use and abuse at worst in return for not always living down to people's expecations. We know Buffy's been been Queen of DeNial for years about Spike, but sometimes her actions reveal those fearful emotions buried deep in her heart. Almost no one has made a lesser issue of this infamous "attack" than Buffy herself, and I take it that there's a reason for this which goes back to my first comment: she believes Spike can be trusted. I think she knew he was "not himself" emotionally and may well have already forgiven him for the "attack". As far as Xander, Buffy has always known Spike far better than Xander ever can (and I don't just mean this in the Biblical sense). She also knows Xander even better; sometimes he comes across as simply a vampire / demon bigot, especially to those who love Buffy. Not that those Angel and Spike have always done good, far from it - but if Buffy can accept them, and if he loves Buffy, then why can't he just accept them at least on her behalf? Oh, yeah - HE tried to attack / rape Buffy as Hyena Boy in S1; guilt, maybe? How can I say this? It's because I believe it to be true. Buffy's actions by taking Dawn to Spike's crypt at that time says a lot to me. I guess, too, I don't understand why this "A/R" attack seems to be the one incident that's the biggest, most unforgettable (and unforgiveable) watershed for a character in the entire BtVS series. I see this everywhere, and I do mean EVERYWHERE. Take this excerpt from this article, for example: "TV Gal Gives Glowing Character Recommendations" by Amy Amatangelo on Nov. 25th at Zap2it.com, where she gives her picks for the "10 Best Characters on Television": "3. Spike on 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer': It's a rare actor that can pull off the heartbreaking quiet moments ('God help me Buffy, it's still all about you'), the searing agony (Spike smoldering on the cross), the humor, the destruction, and the heroism all in one role. Last season his attempted rape of Buffy could have destroyed his character, but it didn't. That's proof of James Marsters' phenomenal performance." (The full article is at tv.zap2it.com/shows/features/features.html?29092) Grrr... Arrgh... even in the most noble and glowing (dare I say "effulgent") of well-deserved praises, the A/R doesn't escape mention. Just don't think that in the overall context of the entire series, the revilement and attention over this incident doesn't quite fit the "crime". I'd think there would've been more of an "Oh, WOW..." factor in S7 over the result of Spike's overwhelming guilt of the "attack": voluntarily getting his soul back.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 30, 2003 17:18:59 GMT -5
So I should look at Spike as having no chose in the matter, that he is such a complete fool for love that he will do anything for it. He has no free will. Everything he has done is for exceptance. Sounds like a lot of excuses to me.
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