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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:11:02 GMT -5
Deborah has uncovered the real reason why Angel and Spike are all over the Buffster's bod, "When cold their activity levels drop. When warm they are at their most active." Buffy must generate a lot of heat in her little slayer's body and those two just rev up when they come in contact with her.
And watching Spike rev up is what our group is all about (yaaaaah!)
New episode tonight, yes! And I am all ready to watch with my spoiler knowledge. I am a complete poof when it comes to suspense. I send my son to movies so he can tell me who gets killed, before I will go myself.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:12:10 GMT -5
Alexandra you poof, just don't spoil it for the unspoilt. ;P (I have read the TV Guide description unfortunately, I needed to be sure it would be a new one after all! Actually, the most spoilt I am at the moment is next weeks description of Angel. I wish I didn't know.)
Anywhooooo, back to my point. We won't have to wait for Hunter to post his most excellent review before begining our discussion over here. Yeah! I always forget all my best ideas while waiting for the episode board to come up. Being a S'cubie rocks! And from what I hear about this next episode, this board shout be a'rockin...
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:13:14 GMT -5
Deborah, Thanks for the link. I think when Sanguine is talking about Spike as a geek she's recalling him newly chipped and living in Xander's basement. Unable in his own mind and everyone else's to do evil. Having to wear Xander's clothes after trying to was h his own and shrinking them. He's lost his own identity to the point that he trys to stake himself while wearing the symbol of his humiliation in the form of a Hawaiian shirt and shorts. It's what JM refers to as his "Wacky Neighbor" phase. Thank God it passed quickly. Andrew is the opposite. An actual geek out of water, he trys to become cool/bad like Spike by doning the costume of evil that Spike has worn so natually all these years. Spike's geek outfit didn't make him any more harmless in his heart than Andrew's black leather coat makes him "evil". He's a murderer and a willing tool, but evil is a height he will never reach.
I don't consider Buffy's defeat at the hands of the uber vamp torture. Coming back from the dead and being all pouty and depressed about having to be the Slayer again might be considerd existential torture. Acting like a nyphomaniac with PMS was the result of her own refusal to deal with her issues straight on. Dumping Spike didn't turn out to be the solution either. It just distanced the symptom so she could regroup to her self imposed isolation as weary Slayer who stands alone.She has his. Will he get hers?
As far as growth, Spike has now moved not only beyond evil souless Spike, but beyond Buffy. He was always more psychologically aware of other people, now he's also self aware in a painfully naked way. He's even given up his most effective weapon, manipulation except to try to get Buffy to remove him as a threat.
Buffy's Joan of Arc complex has never allowed her to let her guard down, or let her friends in. With Spike she's always had the moral high ground, until now. Spike is as much her equal at this moment as anyone has ever been including mister dark and broody from LA. Now its all about trust.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:14:11 GMT -5
Rusty, may I say: "That was EXCELLENT!"
M.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:15:15 GMT -5
Rusty, thank you so much. There are some comments I want to make but must restrain myself in favor of trying to get my work done today. I'll try and post at after work but I don't want to stay too late.
I want to get home and get all my chores done so and set up the right tape (unlike last week) in the vcr so I can be sure of no distractions or undue anxiety when it's time for the new episode (so excited). Being in Chicago which is on Central Time it will begin promptly at 7pm.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:16:11 GMT -5
Sorry. "She has his, will he get hers?" goes at the bottom of my last paragraph. My edit function comes and goes. Mostly its gone.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:17:25 GMT -5
"I am a complete poof when it comes to suspense. I send my son to movies so he can tell me who gets killed, before I will go myself."
Personally, I LOVE to be surprised and hate to be spoiled. I'm really sorry I accidently saw even the TV guide description. I got really upset when I saw a couple spoilers this week posted on the Episode Board before the Editors had a chance to remove them. It was especially annoying since there were about four anti-spoiler warnings on that very board and I don't understand how anyone could miss them.
But I think everyone on this board is too considerate to do that to us poor unspoiled Buffy fans.
What I AM a complete poof about is scary movies. Actually before I started watching Buffy, I was a little afraid it would scare me (but thankfully, it doesn't, even though I had a kind of disturbing dream about being locked in a house with vampires last night and I think too much obssessing over Buffy was to blame). Which is why I'm sort of torn about seeing Darkness Falls when it comes out. On the one hand, there's a Buffy actress in it, but on the other, it looks really scary! (whimper, whimper). Is anyone planning to see it that will kindly tell me just how scary it is?
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:18:45 GMT -5
Thanks Watergal. Praise from a member of the faculty is praise indeed.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:20:15 GMT -5
Thank you. Post makes much more sense now. And I agree.
I think part of the talks-the-talk before-walks-the-walk talk in the analysis (I read it before the link and so it's been awhile, I might not be remembering that well) also refers to when Spike tries to get Willow and Xander to go hunting for demons with him for puppies and Christmas, when he clearly just wants to go kill stuff.
Also, I think the geekiness refers to back when he was human, as well.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:21:51 GMT -5
Rusty said: "Thanks Water gal. Praise from a member of the faculty is praise indeed."
Well you are most welcome Rusty. I have not gotten a position as Chair yet, but I would like to present myself for the position of chair of Nosferoengineering (NosfEng.) All those against feel free to say Nay!
In the mean time, I seem to have lost track of all our Chairs and would like to put together a comprehensive list. Would all Chair members please come forward. (and the official laundress as well (Nan that's you I believe?)) I would like to get everyone straightened out.
M The Watergal
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:23:50 GMT -5
I'd just like to say that all of our total posts combined account for 42% of the posts on the miscellaneous board. Ang mostly likely going up.
I'm really having a slow day at work.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:25:01 GMT -5
Miss Pamela, Chair of Nosferolinguistics - VHISN.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:26:30 GMT -5
Rusty, again I really appreciate your comments on Sanguine's episode analysis.
See if you think I'm understanding this correctly.
Andrew has dressed up his inherent geekiness in the trappings of evil; more particularly, the trappings of evil he identifies most closely with Spike who for him must epitomize the very ideal of evil. But during the parallel period in Spike's history when he was the evil enemy forced by necessity into dependence upon the Scoobies he was forced into the trappings of geekiness that are in direct opposition to his own nature.
I guess it just threw me that Sanguine seemed to be drawing attention to their similarities rather than pointing to their differences in similar situations. These supposed parallels between Andrew and Spike while superficially comical are to me, troubling. Any resemblance they have is merely superficial (which, I guess is the point?) Andrew is a spineless geek with affectations of *coolness*. He is a natural follower in search of a new leader and desperately hoping to be accepted in Buffy's gang. Spike, during his *parallel* "wacky neighbor" period remained his normal brave, smarmy, independent, natural leader self forced into the trappings of geekiness. In each case, their true natures cannot be concealed by their dress and surroundings, whether it be Andrew's leather duster coat or Spike in Xander's Hawaiian shirt and shorts.)
Is this what Sanguine meant?
And this whole thing about Spike having talked the talk before walking the walk of redemption, no no no. I would argue that there were early signs of Spike moving in that direction even before he was himself aware of it. The only time I recall him ever suggesting that he was on the path of redemption was in "Tabula Rasa" when they all lost their memories due to Willow's spell gone awry. Spike, dressed in a geeky costume to evade his pursuers decides he must be Giles' son. Buffy, clueless as to her own identity choses the name "Joan" (of Arc, presumably). Together they fight the demons that come after Spike and discover that she is some kind of super hero who can slay vampires and demons and that "Randy" is actually a vampire. The scenario that "Randy" constructs to explain why he, a vampire is allied with Joan and fighting his own kind and has no thought of biting her and she no thought of staking him was comic and at the time, I thought intended as ME's gentle joke on all the Spuffy Shippers and Spike Redemptionists in the audience. But then again maybe it was actually intended as an genuine insight by Randy into Spike's real life struggle.
But Spike, as himself that is, never talked about being redeemed or that he was seeking redemption. Why would he? Until he got his soul back he never felt any guilt for any of his crimes against humanity so why would redemption ever have entered his head? The only guilt he felt, as someone else as already pointed out before me, was in connection with people he loved (Buffy and Dawn) and not over the countless murders of anonymous victims that mark his past. That guilt didn't hit him until he got his soul back. Remember in the church, he says "Angel, he should have warned me." (And if anyone can understand the next line he says please share. I've never been able to decipher it.) Which begs the question, if he had known that the return of his soul would mean overwhelming, crippling guilt would he have followed through on his quest?
No, he initially was only interested in winning Buffy's approval and acceptance into her life. That was the start. The humanity he still retained as a vampire provided the raw material for the growth . The chip acted as a catalyst in preventing him from indulging in his natural inclination to prey on people and forced him to seek help from his enemies. Yes, he claimed that a man can change but by the time he said it he'd already proved it time and again. I would say that Spike was walking the walk long before he talked the talk of redemption.
And with that said, I have got to dash. If the slightest thing goes wrong I'll miss the new episode. The time is 6:17 and it starts at 7pm.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:27:36 GMT -5
deborah: You make a good point, and I really had to think on this one. Here is what I came up with:
Spike did say things to Buffy about how he was "going to give up the whole evil thing" (in "Crush"), etc. Those things weren't strictly redemptionist in that he wasn't talking about getting a soul. But still, when he was first trying to woo Buffy in Season Five, he would point things out to Buffy - how he wasn't going to feed off Olaf the Troll's bleeding victims, how he was changing, and things like that. Sanguine may have been referring to these Season 5 statements as "talking the talk".
Rewatch that exchange between Buffy & Spike in Crush, after the two vamps have run away, and Buffy confronts Spike with "Is this a date?". He talks a lot about how he can be good now, but if you watch his face while Buffy challenges that, you can see he is completely confused - that Buffy is right when she tells him he doesn't know what he means.
I remember particularly how Buffy says something like "What, you mean the chip?" and he seems ready to say "yes" he does mean the chip is making him good, but then he sees this isn't what Buffy thinks, so he doesn't say it. He tries to follow her train of thought, but ends up totally hurt and confused.
RUSTY: Nice analysis!
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Post by Dalton on Jun 26, 2003 23:29:16 GMT -5
Some thoughts about what deborah expressed over in Part 5 - she mentioned how she didn’t know how Spike kept from going mad or committing suicide in Season 6, and I agree he was remarkably strong just staying sane and on his feet.
But it is also remarkable that Buffy had the strength to get up in the morning. When you are in the shape Buffy is in – basically in shock from a series of enormous losses, hating yourself, filled with repressed anger and with guilt - it is very, very, easy to be cruel to someone who adores you and will take the abuse.
So now it is confession time for me. My husband died suddenly when I was in my early 30s. I was left with two little kids. In hindsight, I can see I was angry with my husband, and guilty about that anger and guilty for just being alive. The first man I dated, about a year later – well, I am not too proud of the way I treated him. He was crazy about me, and I wanted to feel love again, so I went with it. But I felt such guilt - I know that now. Back then, I just felt driven to be very cold to him, and he was willing to put up with it. But not forever, and I couldn’t just unseal my heart on demand. My mistake was giving into the temptation of comfort and sex and wanting to feel again, when I really wasn’t yet capable loving a man properly. Eventually we broke up and it hurt him badly, while I didn’t shed a tear – too much numbness still inside.
People are very fragile. They make tons of mistakes, especially when under extreme stress, as Buffy was. If they are lucky, they learn and grow from those mistakes. If they are very lucky, they are given the opportunity to make up for some of them. I think Buffy will find –and take advantage of – that opportunity this season with Spike.
Season 6 was a realistic portrayal of the way someone in Buffy’s condition would act. I admired Joss & Marti for allowing their heroine to act the way a person would really act, even though it made her quite unsympathetic.
Most people’s abuse doesn’t include beating their lover’s face black and blue, but this is the BtVS, things are over the top. Buffy and Spike both have super-strength and physical violence is a part of their relationship. The beating is a super-sized, Buffyverse representation of reality. It made me cry for both of them, and it puts a big smile on my face to see them now beginning a truly loving, respectful relationship.
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