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Post by Sara on Jan 13, 2005 9:42:01 GMT -5
[/img] I'm only sneaking in for a bit because I'm nowhere near caught up on the main board. Bad me! (Although I sincerely hope everyone is well.) I just wanted to cast my vote for Locke = Gen. Woundwort. His compass doesn't point to true north. And he is actively manipulating people. A case could be made that he is doing so for their own good, but he is holding way too much back. Now Hurley, I think he could be Hazel or Fiver. The guy's got insight. Jack can be Thlayli (Big Wig). He would be the one who would go head-to-head with Locke's Woundwort in the end. Unless that would be Kate or Sayid. Yeah. Good book. Linda, oh and, and Hawaii still pretty. [/quote] Yes. Thank you. Greg and I were arguing about this last night in a very benign way; I said I don't trust Locke because I don't like the way he keeps pulling everyone's strings, whereas it doesn't really trouble Greg because he sees Locke as doing such things for the other person's own good. I reminded him that's what Jasmine thought she was doing as well.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 13, 2005 10:42:12 GMT -5
I definetely got the impression that Locke is forming his own little group - ala the light and dark stones/game pieces. He had to shape Boone's mind first - I knew she wasn't dead. I wanted her to be dead simply because it would have upped the terror quotient on the show but I felt that Locke could not have got her tied up without her screaming the island down. True he could have knocked her out but it just didn't feel right to me. Yes, I too had the thought that Boone's experience wasn't "real" but induced by what Locke put on his head, especially after he found Shannon dead, and we'd heard that talk about Michelangelo shaping David, and boars adapting . . . I just thought it might be something Locke was doing to "shape" Boone, rather than something real. Sounds like we were sharing a wavelength last night, I had the exact same "Chandler/Monica" flashback. Or was it Joey? I can't remember. Yes - nice device to continue keeping us interested in Sawyer, despite the ep being very Sawyer-light.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 13, 2005 10:47:27 GMT -5
Yes. Thank you. Greg and I were arguing about this last night in a very benign way; I said I don't trust Locke because I don't like the way he keeps pulling everyone's strings, whereas it doesn't really trouble Greg because he sees Locke as doing such things for the other person's own good. I reminded him that's what Jasmine thought she was doing as well. My feelings exactly - there's a kind of "Willow-like" feel to Locke . . . someone deciding what is best for everyone else without asking them, or having been elected or publicly appointed as God. Though . . . at this point anyhow, Locke seems more mature and benign than Willow. I mean, he's just as bad about making unilateral decisions without consulting others, but he makes much better decisions. Not sure where I'm going with this, except to say I mostly like Locke, but am uneasy when it comes to what he might be capable of doing.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jan 13, 2005 11:10:27 GMT -5
General reactions:
Huh?
WHAT!?!
Locke is evil! On sober reflection, Locke is no longer human. He's the island, and therefore amoral. He's a force of nature. I think. Charlie called him a mutant freak of nature, if I heard right.
Well, that explains the weird chemistry between Boone and Shannon, and isn't she a nasty little piece of work.
Oh, no, not Shannon! Or, as Paul said, we haven't had a death in a while.
So, it was all Boone's spirit journey, induced by the glop Locke put on his open headwound. You know, that calls some of Sayid's experience into question, too.
Damn and blast ABC! The show ran almost four minutes past the hour this time, and the VCR shut off at two! At least we were watching, but we can't go back and watch the end. Aaaargh!
Anne, off to read everybody else's comments now
Almost forgot - Jin is really improving, out of his father-in-law's evil influences. I think Sun is getting the man she fell in love with, back. I hope so. I wonder if Jin speaks a little English; seems like a possibility.
I still want to know where Sun learned her plant and herb lore.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jan 13, 2005 11:11:51 GMT -5
HAH! I CALLED IT!!!! Shannon-simulacrum!!!!! Huh.. Shannon needs to be dead to him? Interesting. I think Boone needs to let go of Shannon, to let her grow up. He needs to stop rescuing her from the consequences of her mistakes. That's a hell of a way to teach him that, though.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jan 13, 2005 11:16:36 GMT -5
Is Hurley's thinking messed up, or is Jin actually as messed up as Hurley thinks? I'm going with Hurley's thinking. Is Boone's brain messed up, or are his surroundings actually as they seem? Well, it was his brain. Is the compass messed up, or the island messed up? Those comparisons make me think: compass messed up. But who knows? I think it's time for a end to adding mysteries for awhile, and a beginning to providing us a few answers . . . pretty please? Okay, I'm thinking island messed up. The earth's magnetic field is messed up around the island, which affects Locke's compass (but not Sayid's homegrown variety??? ), and might be related to whatever drew the plane there, and is hiding the island from rescuers (we assume). My brain hurts. Oh, wait - Sayid just made the homemade compass, so maybe it takes a little while for the island to influence it? No, doesn't make sense either. Oh, I know! It was Locke's close encounter with the Big Roaring Thing! The whatsit remagnetised his compass!
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jan 13, 2005 11:19:53 GMT -5
Definitely not blood sister, according to Boone. And no, not just you - I thought the same thing, but now she's not dead so - does it not count? I am so completely whu.....? about this show. Nothing is getting clearer. Even the backstories don't clear up much. For instance, Sawyer - bad guy right? No...bad guy turned good guy, pretending to be bad guy. Right? No....there he is being arrested in the flashback tonight. All I know is...Sayid and Sawyer still pretty. Way to get your priorities in order, Patti! When in doubt, concentrate on the guy candy. Anne, not to mention the damn fine acting
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jan 13, 2005 11:22:38 GMT -5
I thought that Pieta-imitation was meant to cast our minds back to Locke's Michelangelo story - he (Michelangelo) was working on the marble, on his plans to shape it into David, for months before he touched it . . . Locke is shaping Boone, without touching him. Or maybe I am tired and crazy, but that is the thought I had. Oh, neat! Spring, you are the Goddess of Analyses. www.soulfulspike.com/membersavatars/smileys/bid.gif [/img] Anne, not that I'm discounting any of the rest of you, you know
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jan 13, 2005 11:24:21 GMT -5
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jan 13, 2005 11:25:25 GMT -5
*grin* I'm happy my stripper comment got so much play, but isn't anyone going to comment on whether Locke represents Fiver (as Havoc suggested) or General Woundwort (as I suggested)? 'Cause I'm itching to talk about the parallels...I love that book. I haven't read Watership Down in more years than I care to remember. Maybe when Emily is done reading it for her English class...
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Post by havoc on Jan 13, 2005 11:32:10 GMT -5
My feelings exactly - there's a kind of "Willow-like" feel to Locke . . . someone deciding what is best for everyone else without asking them, or having been elected or publicly appointed as God. Though . . . at this point anyhow, Locke seems more mature and benign than Willow. I mean, he's just as bad about making unilateral decisions without consulting others, but he makes much better decisions. Not sure where I'm going with this, except to say I mostly like Locke, but am uneasy when it comes to what he might be capable of doing. I don't see any of this as particularly troubling. Locke attempted to get Boone to go back to camp before the hatch was exposed. My estimate then was that Locke had to know it was there. But what's under that hatch.. I think the reason that hatch isn't open is because Locke himself isn't entirely sure what he'll find. From a security standpoint, one doesn't especially want to tell the world about the neat thing in the jungle that could kill them all. Let's get one of them infected with a virus or radiation sickness then expose the whole group bit by bit... Locke's approach is dead on - find out what you're dealing with before you make a gift of it or warn people about it. My gut says there's a lab down their; but, what if I'm wrong. What if Boone's wrong. What if Locke is. What Locke did is quite simple. Boone couldn't think this clearly about the situation because he wasn't in control to begin with. Locke has no choice but to trust Boone to keep quiet for now. He doesn't have the option of just hoping Boone wouldn't continue being impulsive. He couldn't demand that Boone trust him. But, he could create circumstances which showed that Boone could not only trust Him; but, that Boone could also trust himself - when unobscured by mind altering substances - such as a manipulative woman. We all go through these things at different points in our lives. I'd note that the navy doesn't just stock ships with people hoping they'll figure out how to patch a hull when they're up to their necks in water and losing air fast. They rather put them in a test situation where they are submerged and inundated while trying to patch an actual hull. Point being, if you don't show people the consequence of action or inaction at times, their response to possible danger may be unworthy of the situation if not fatal. Is that Locke's job to determine. Well, given there is no government on this island and that Locke and Jack are the titular head of things, yeah. Is Locke dangerous. Sure. So were Patton, Eisenhower and Macarthur among others. They were seriously dangerous men. People who think clearly often are to those who do not do so. IMO, Locke just demonstrated uncommon wisdom once again. And what he did wasn't much different than some of the training I got in Boyscouts. I think, in all seriousness, Sayid is in more dangerous ground than Boone was. At this point, people are really starting to think. Some provoked and some surprising others on their own. A garden.. should have been thought of earlier; but, it wasn't. And it should have come from Jack, Sayid or Hurley - it didn't. It came from Sun. Why? Because everyone is gifted in different ways and can make a contriibution to the welfare of all. Sometimes it takes time for people to realize what that contribution can or will be - if not how it can best be achieved. Life doesn't always give us breaks and room to think to do the things we'd like to. A lesson from John Lennon - Life is what happens while we're busy making other plans. And this show is displaying that in spades. If Jack weren't busy nursing the psychosies of everyone else, we might be getting recommendations from him for a garden. Instead, he has to fight with a nut over an airplane in an envelope. Or he must fight with another nut over an inhaler that doesn't exist. Or... While the more effective thinkers are busy with the chaos, Hurley goes fishing and Sun plants a garden. If Boone could think that clearly on his own, Locke wouldn't have to whack him to wake him up. I think this episode showed what it should have - that people are starting to get it together.. which is what we all hope we could do in bad situations. We know now that this is indeed a hatch. No more speculation. It appears to have something like bullet proof Glass; but, it doesn't look military which means it's likely a containment hatch. It represents civilization. But it could very easily represent the worst of it. And it may go a long way to explaining why Locke's compass doesn't work if what I think is down there proves to be right. Particle accelerators use some pretty powerful field magnets. Could also be the island; but, if that were the case, why did Sayid's hand made unit not demonstrate the same problem.. Hurley presented some great comic relief - which was much needed. And it was refreshing to see Charlie among the living and Jack doing something other than dealing with the latest nutty episode. Good show IMO. Wondering if Claire comes back next.
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Post by Becky H on Jan 13, 2005 11:40:15 GMT -5
My first clue that Shannon wasn't really Shannon: Boone didn't ask, when he found her, some variation of "how the hell did you get out here?" But I was still shaken by his finding her body in the stream (more water imagery, folks).
Did anyone else see a parallel between Locke's helping Charlie face up to his heroin addiction and Locke's helping Boone face up to his Shannon addiction?
And just as with Charlie, I don't think Locke knew for sure what Boone would choose. He's certainly manipulating other people for their own supposed good but I don't think he's omniscient. I'm still really bothered that he lied to Jack about having seen Boone all day.
Is Locke Fiver or Woundwort? Good question but I don't think we have enough info yet to decide. I'm leaning towards Woundwort but I need to see what kind of "team/side" Locke wants to create before I'm sure. Locke does have Fiver's mysticism but he also has the physical competence of Woundwort. Woundwort's despotism was founded because he believed he knew what was best and I certainly see that in Locke but it's just still too ambiguous. I am keeping in mind that even a benevolent despot is still a despot.
Oh, and did anyone else think that Locke gave the compass to Sayid knowing that it was inaccurate, as if he were trying to keep Sayid from finding something?
When is Kate going to remember that Sun, the speaker of English, overheard her conversation with Jack last week?
I don't have it taped but wasn't Sawyer saying something in his own defense as he was hauled through the police station? Could someone who recorded the episode check this out?
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Post by Nickim on Jan 13, 2005 11:44:33 GMT -5
Wow, what a great episode. I wish I could have been here last night for the discussion.
I haven't read the thread yet, so sorry if I'm repeating.
When Locke told Boone it was time to let go of something, I knew it was going to be his obsession with Shannon. I even felt like the whole thing wasn't real. I never really believed that Locke would hurt anyone that way, especially when he told Boone to get over Sayid's attraction to Shannon. He told Boone that Sayid was a good guy and that he was someone they wanted on "their side." If Locke and Boone are on a "side," then why would Locke do something to make Boone an enemy.
I think Boone's feeling of relief was selfish, but understandable. He's tried to help Shannon over and over and then finds out that she's just used him to get money. Then, she sleeps with him. She's even a worse bitca than I thought. She's exactly the type of person who deserves to be stranded on a desert island, but without anyone to help her survive.
The scene in the police station sure explains why Boone doesn't like Sawyer. Wonder what Sawyer was there for?
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Post by Nickim on Jan 13, 2005 11:46:39 GMT -5
Boone, that is a very complicated Japanese Bondage discipline. Where the hell did he get the rope?Locke is just.... weird. One of the reasons I felt all along that it wasn't real.
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Post by havoc on Jan 13, 2005 11:51:37 GMT -5
*grin* I'm happy my stripper comment got so much play, but isn't anyone going to comment on whether Locke represents Fiver (as Havoc suggested) or General Woundwort (as I suggested)? 'Cause I'm itching to talk about the parallels...I love that book. I think if you'll remember back to the storyline of Watership, when the others failed to listen to Fiver, it took butt kickings or near butt kickings to show them Fiver was right. Fiver was too little to provide Parental type guidance - Locke is not similarly constrained; but, is rather well capable. I don't think the Woundwort comparison holds up. And if you look at the situation in broader perspective - even Boone would tend to agree. Boone was being controlled by Shannon - blown about by her whims and badgering. That isn't a man - it's a whack-a-mole puppet waiting for the next swing. Locke woke him up to it and seems to have delivered Boone some measure of moral clarity. No small accomplishment. Locke didn't abuse the boy, torture him, or yell and scream. He gave the kid a situation of his own making and let him fight his own way out of it. Boone didn't have to be out in the Jungle a minute longer than was Locke if he'd really been interested in getting free. And Locke didn't leave him there to perish or be abused - he gave Boone the capacity and situation to free himself. That wasn't going to happen till Boone gave himself a reason to fight. When he did, he was free as a bird.
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