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Post by Dalton on Jul 8, 2003 10:53:13 GMT -5
Nan - great observations, I concur.
Off the top of my head impressions - I just finished watching - the episode is about letting go and gettting on with it - not just for Willow, but for Buffy & Spike as well.
When they dug their way through the dirt to the Initiative caves, I thought of Spike's words to her in "Fool for Love", about "digging up past uglies". And sure enough, they find past uglies, just left there, sealed up. And uh-oh, something survived. It tries to drag Spike away from Buffy, but she kills it and gets to him. I think that whole scene was about Buffy & Spike getting over "past uglies" - killing the last of them.
I agree Buffy's going to decide to have his chip removed. It's the decision she'd make if she loved and trusted Spike, and I think she does.
Bass-face? Is that what Riley called Spike? Ha! Good to know Riley is cool enough about it all to maintain a sense of humor, but also good to know it still must sting a bit.
Yay to the "Gone With the Wind" reference.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 10:57:49 GMT -5
I can already tell it isn't going to count as a favorite. All due respect goes to Alyson Hannigan, who did a great job. I also liked the opening scene with the comic bit with Giles and the rest of the gang, and it was cute watching Buffy tease Willow. Amy's part was well written too, though I never got a clear impression of how she's aware of the SIT's. Overall, though, there was a lot of pointless nastiness and mean spirit in this episode between people who are supposed to care about one another. I want to reemphasize the word pointless. What is the point of having Spike's pain in the background being treated as a joke? The gang all look down on him as if they don't care. What kind of garbage is that? When Willow (morphed into Warren) faces everyone downstairs she turns on Xander and threatens him with a kindergarten story, making reference to the yellow crayon speech. Is spitting on what he did for her by threatening to embarrass him supposed to be funny? Come to think of it, has there been a meaningful conversation between Xander and Willow since "Him?" Have Buffy and Xander had a decent conversation since "Selfless?" Even the X/W scene when he took her to visit Tara's grave (that's the scene in "Him")lasted about a minute, tops. One last quibble: the whole Giles thing turns out to be a big fat nothing? Just a road trip where Anya basically calls Xander useless by equating him with Andrew? Then these apparently stupid people decide they'll tackle Ripper at the old desert campsite. Huh? If he's the First they'll go right through him. Frankly, it's starting to tick me off. In the little preview for the next episode Xander apparently goes on a date with another demon and probably has to be saved again, and then the writers will have their fun and give the other characters a chance to treat him like he's stupid again. I should reserve judgment on an episode I haven't seen, I guess. Based on what I've been seeing recently though, I'd say the writers are falling back on their Xander as hapless loser bit because they can't think of anything else to do with him. Here's an idea: let's have Xander support Spike's chip being removed (I'm assuming Buffy did it, by the way. Why not? He was killing people with the chip in anyway, and he's earned the right to seek out redemption without mechanical help). A nice, mature moment supporting a grateful Buffy's decision. Nahhh...that'd be too much to ask.
Rob Sorenson
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 10:59:20 GMT -5
i have just started watching the episode again (after watching Oz which had some insightful thigs to say about forgiveness of oneself being the hardest since it means getting up every day and forgiving all over again!) Anyway- just checked the board again and I must say I agree with Robert that the episode was extraordinarioy mean spirited. I was horrified at Willow's yellow crayon comment and Anya's likening of Andrew and Xander. I am assuming that the dictates of the plot rule that the characters demonstrate their difficulty in coming to grips with complex relationships but I think the humor was divertingly juvenile w/o furthering the plot. I suppose it could be argued that we all struggle to redefine ourselves to those who "know" us best and those definitions can trap us... Robert- I still think Xander is going to be the linchpin to whatever the way to defeat the BIG Bad is and I think that is why he is being "tortured" (seemingly needlessly). Each character is, some physically, others psychologically,Xander's is by being tragically unrecognized and dismissed. It must all figure into the ultimate resolution. I think Spike and Buffy are moving along nicely however and I look forward to his regaining his moxie at some futrue point. I guess Buff'us date next week is paart of spike's ongoing torture.... Better that than bound and gagged ( They seem to be reserving that for Xander next week)
ellie jason
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 11:00:02 GMT -5
64 My take 2/5/2003 Vlad I I am rewatching the episode. Number one, unlike some folks, I like Kennedy. She's coming across very much the 18-19 year old young woman. She's flirty, full of bravado, but you can see the inexperience lingering underneath. I think her well played and well written. And as much as some seem to hate the idea, I think she is showing the kinda spunk, flexibility and staunch loyalness that another blonde slayer once had. Like Buffy, she reacts from the gut, and her instincts are mostly good. Secondly, the humor in this episode seemed forced. I don't think any of the writers were deliberately trying to offend with Spike's pain, or Willow's trashing of the sweetness of the yellow crayon. I'd say it was just misguided. As far a episodes go, this one wasn't the best. It did much to forward the story arc and answer questions, but it felt rushed. I hope they don't plan on writing the rest of the way out in "three story" mode. There was too much going on. In Dungeon & Dragons speak, they "split the party." The Willow story was pretty good and fairly well done. The Buffy and Spike story was jsut walked thru.. there was no suspense, no passion, no angst. The Xander, Giles, Anya section was just weak. I agree with Rob; it felt like "Okay, we've got Buffy Spike, Willow and Kennedy doing stuff... what are these guys doing?" I would have rather jsut seen them sit around home eating popcorn, watching a movie Clem brought over. We could have had Giles come in the door being supported by some of hte SIT's because he twisted and ankle while falling down a hole while demonstrating a "slayer thing." Bingo, presto, we would have known he wasn't the first and the gang could have questioned him about what Robeson said. BTW! Giles ain't the only Watcher left!! Or was that the First on the phone "sounding" like Robeson? Hmmmmmm. To sum it all up...not the worst episode of Buffy I have ever seen, but far, far from the way I want to see the series end. And WHAT were those things in the Initiative compound? Demons? Vampires, what? And did anyone notice that Will and Kennedy just left that dangerous handgun laying in the yard? Tsk, tsk. Who's waiting for some neighbor kid to pick it up and accidently shoot Kennedy thru the Window? Vlad ps. Okay, they weren't vamps.. they didn't go to dust. Edited By Vlad I at 2/5/2003 1:52:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 11:00:32 GMT -5
65 Re: Spike 2/5/2003 Julie A Very keen observation about digging up past uglies. I definitely think she has to choose to get the chip out, or this show makes no sense. She said she believed in him. I'm pretty sure she meant it. If you believe in someone, you don't deprive them of the ability to make their own choices and you certainly don't deprive them of the ability to defend themselves. Especially considering that she knows now that the chip has a shelf life of only three years before it will kill Spike, and what if next time she doesn't have the choice to get a roomful of initiative people to do whatever she wants. Anyway, I'm glad that in this case it would be chip out not chip disabled. I always thought that if left there for his whole eternal life it would have to cause brain damage by rusting or something eventually... I have to say though, does anything seem kind of suspicious about how much power Riley has in the army? I wonder also if he thinks Buffy will choose to get the chip out or fixed? The last time he saw them,from his point of view, Spike was raising eggs that would kill whole villages and Buffy was referring to sleeping with him in the present tense. He doesn't even know whether she broke up with him or not.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 11:01:19 GMT -5
Now that I've reread my own post a couple of hours later, I probably should apologize. I was a little cranky there for a minute, and probably overdid the vitriol. I think I'm just hoping for more. These episodes are precious. It's looking more and more obvious by the day that this is the end, at least with Sarah's involvement. Without Sarah we'd have a totally different show. Therefore I want it to end on a higher note.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 11:02:07 GMT -5
Yep, on The Soulful Spike Society webpage there is a new scrap of fiction by...yours truly. www.geocities.com/scubiefan/Uh huh, in Fanfictional! is a piece I just wrote called Clean Sheets. I hope you like it. Vlad, TA, tp Edited By Vlad I at 2/5/2003 6:43:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 11:03:45 GMT -5
My suggestion to the line break and editing problems is to write the thing on your word processing program, double space between the lines, the cut&paste onto the board.Failing that, post it here and let the line breaks fall where they may, but email it to Vlad at the scubiefan mailing address for inclusion at the site. Diane (who also has seen her poetry break in all the wrong places.)
Diane U
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 11:04:51 GMT -5
My take on Warren/Willow's threat to Xander regarding the Aquaman underoos was that either the Warren side was already beginning to take over or that she simply didn't have time or patience to prove who she really was and choose the fastest way to get through to them. I didn't see it as spitting on what he did for her last season, just impatience with her plight. I did, however, applaud her facing them in Warren-face. Usually a Scooby with a problem runs away and gets into mortal danger, leaving the rest of them to figure out what is up.However, I do agree there was a lot of mean-spiritedness in this episode. I would have been a lot more offended by Anya's comment about Xander if she hadn't also referred to herself as a "powerless ex-demon." I enjoyed the all-too-brief respite of Buffy's visit to Spike in the basement and the gentle teasing of Willow. Somehow I didn't take Spike's pain as being played for laughs. The Scoobies' delayed reaction to his fall to the floor seemed to me rather that they were so preoccupied and Spike fell so quietly that they were surprised to find him there. I could be wrong. Will have to rewind and watch again. The one thing this season seems to be missing is meaningful conversations between anyone. What have we had since the season premiere? Buffy's "I believe in you" speech to Spike, the Xander/Dawn exchange last week and that's about it since the season began with Giles' talk to Willow before she went home from England. I realize there is little time before the season ends, but these people have established deep relationships with each other over the years and I, for one, like seeing them discuss it. And speaking about how little time is left before the finale, I am distressed by the realization that if this is the countdown from 10 to the end, we have a lot of reruns coming. Consider: This is Sweeps month, so last night was 10, next week is 9, then 8 and 7. Either March or April is going to be rerun hell again until we hit Sweeps month in May *sigh*.
Diane U
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 11:05:26 GMT -5
: ...I think I'm just hoping for more. These episodes are precious. ... I want it to end on a higher note. : Me too, Robert, me too!
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 11:05:56 GMT -5
If she's not an agent of the First, I will gladly turn in my stake! Seriously -- did anyone else notice her saying "It's about the power". (maybe someone else did notice and post it, I still have to read thru all the messages). Not my favorite ep. The Willow/Warren stuff was cool. I also liked the way that Amy was used as the voice of a specific group of fans wondering why everyone still loves Willow when she almost destroyed the world, and wondering where the balance was in all that -- that was cool. Everyone attacking Giles was funny. Still no explanation. And I have to say I admire Riley's take on the "Hostile 17" issue. I never liked Riley, but he's stepped back and left Spike's fate in Buffy's hands. There's a man who's moved on. I expected better from the first February episode. I've been waiting for a 'wow' episode for too long, it seems...
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 11:06:32 GMT -5
This is going to be brief and to the point because I'm at work (of course) and I want to read the new ScoopMe review and check out the Episode board, etc... This will be a busy day on the boards.- I never got the impression that Spike's collapse in the living room was meant to be at all funny. It just seemed that the others couldn't attend to him until the first crisis was resolved; that of determining whether "Warren" was TFE. But it seemed to me that they were well aware he was there, he didn't collapse unnoticed. - It bothered me that for all Buffy's concern for his pain and predicament she kept her physical distance. There were moments when it seemed perfectly natural that she would have reached out and taken his hand or maybe caressed his face for comfort and reassurance but she kept her hands conspicuously to herself. One of the nicest things about "Potential" was the natural way Buffy automatically moved to examine Spike's chest in the graveyard when she saw he was in pain. Someone described it as the familiar way one person touches another who is 'physically available'. And with their history that's just what they should be to one another. I was disappointed that she inexplicably reverted to a hands-off stance. It didn't jive with how far they've come and with the circumstances. - When that monster was dragging Spike away in the Initiative HQ I was shouting at the TV "NO, NOT AGAIN! etc..." I was momentarily afraid he was going to be a prisoner of TFE again and I couldn't believe they (ME) would stoop to that. I was very relieved when Buffy dispatched it and then again when the soldier boys turned out to be there for their benefit. - Buffy's Choice. A no brainer. I'm a little disappointed that they left that decision as a cliffhanger. I mean, how thick to they (ME) think we are? Hasn't Spike more than proved that he's reformed? Hasn't he demonstrated that he's earned the restoration of his free will? Haven't we already established that Buffy believes in him? And Buffy already understands that the chip is no barrier to TFE controlling Spike when it chooses so that's not a consideration. Then the clincher- Spike has a soul. If an ensouled Angel, who was utterly EVIL sans soul, could be trusted with the Gem of Amarra then how could an ensouled Spike, who had progressed so far towards redemption before even gaining his soul not be found worthy of free will? And finally as someone else mentioned, if Buffy were to chose to have the chip repaired rather than removed then not only would she would be choosing to leave him with a ticking time bomb in his head but his redemption would be aborted. Spike's redemption cannot be complete until the chip is gone. The suspense of the decision is contrived. If ME leaves it in than that would constitute a betrayal of character on MASSIVE scale. - Buffy's date with Wood next week? Ewe, I say, ewe. Buffy is his subordinate. I am sure that the school board must have rules against relationships between one who directly reports to another. This development reminds me of "Friends" where Rachel is currently seeing other men even though when we all know that she and Ross belong together and it's a safe bet that they'll reconcile by the end of the season. At least, that's what I'm hoping (not about Rachael and Ross - I could give a flying ##** about them anymore) but that ME is just playing us and wants to milk all the mileage they can out of the sexual tension between Spike and Buffy and the frustration of a good part of their audience who long to see them together (they are so MEAN!). Giles. Is that all? Again, how thick do they thing we are? It's just preposterous to imagine that no one would have tried to touch Giles or noticed that he hadn't touched anything before Robson's call. Had they not sat down to a meal at any time since his arrival? I can't believe that they let this go so long only to finally resolve all doubts by a simple touch or two or ten. As people have mentioned in the past since the Scoobies know that TFE cannot take corporeal form the easiest way to ensure it is not among them is by mutual physical contact; a logical precaution they should have been taking all along but inexplicably never have. Last night's episode was interesting and I'm thrilled that they're dealing with the chip now but I did feel as if my (our) intelligence was being insulted on more than one level. deborah
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 11:07:07 GMT -5
I forgot to mention another issue I had with "The Killer In Me" in my preceeding (and not so brief after all) post. Spike and Buffy go to the Initiative HQ to retrieve a drug that Spike remembers being used to calm him following rambunctious behavior that triggerd the chip while he was being held prisoner there. But in "The Initiative" which, it so happens I watched last night, Spike doesn't even know about the chip until after his escape when he discovers he can't bite willow. So that whole drug memory seems to be a bit of reinvented history. Anyway, if the drug was supposed to have been used AFTER the chip had fired to ease the pain in his head why would the Initiative have cared about making him more comfortable and two, wouldn't any potent pain reliever have done as much? It didn't sound as if the drug had been used to inhibit the chip from firing, only to alter Spike's mood so that his behavior wouldn't trigger it. How could that drug prevent the chip from mis-firing? I wish that their motive for going back to the Initiative had simply been to search for helpful information on the chip and not for any poorly contrived drug. deborah
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 11:07:40 GMT -5
Before I forget here's a link to an article I found through the slayage.com site: www.the-buzz.com/b_7_12a.html It's very insightful, focusing mostly on Dawn but also on Xander. deborah
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Post by Dalton on Jul 11, 2003 11:08:10 GMT -5
deborah: My take on Buffy's hands-off approach to Spike is that she doesn't really trust herself. She did touch Spike last week in that familiar way you would expect given their initmate history, but she had an obvious reaction to it. She hasn't been with a man for many months now, and she broke up with Spike while the fire was still roaring hot. She admitted she still wanted him; she just had to be strong. But now he's living in her house, and he's been very sweet to her, and he has a soul now . . . I don't know if she'll be able to continue being so disciplined - I thought he looked good last night, especially in that first scene when she was sitting on his bed. His hair wasn't quite so straight and slicked, and maybe I was dreaming,but I thought I saw a faint suggestion of roots growing out. I doubt ME will draw out the "non-suspense" of the chip thing. They can't really, since Buffy plainly has to make up her mind right away. I agree that the gang was just too preoccupied to notice Spike's quiet descent to the floor. It seemed Buffy pretty much rushed to his side as soon as she noticed, and the rest followed. Buffy just seemed obviously concerned to me. I just didn't get a "everyone's being mean to each other" kind of vibe from this thing. Willow was "Willow/Warren", and she was under extreme distress, so you might expect an edge even when she's "mostly Willow". Anya was just blunt as she always is, which usually isn't with an intent to hurt.
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