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Post by Pixi on May 11, 2006 11:05:03 GMT -5
Recorded! Maybe it recorded Michael shooting AL and Libby? ETA: Brainshare with Spring. Awesome. Now that would be interesting.
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Post by Maria on May 11, 2006 11:42:30 GMT -5
Hello. LOL--I delurked in the VM thread and now I'm delurking here. I must register.
Question--I went to that new website and just sat on it for awhile. I was able to click on some of the screens. After you waited, they rotated and the one I clicked on lit up.
After waiting awhile for them ALL to light up, they disappeared and a TV screen appeared that said "Code" and then fuzz, and then "Heir Apparent"
I'm not into the website Lost stuff at all, so I went to Hanso to see if there was a place to enter a code, and I couldn't find one. But I thought I'd pass that along if anyone had some idea of what to DO with the code...?
My latest theory has Jack's father being involved with Hanso in some way. He's a doctor...he's not in his coffin, there's a life extension program, and he seems to be tied to more and more of the people on the plane.
It's a broad, nonspecific theory, but my theory nonetheless.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on May 11, 2006 11:58:08 GMT -5
It's the button pushing. Anyone who becomes an eager button pusher just . . . um . . . pushes my buttons, I guess. I want them to smash the button pushing machine!! Oh good - I'm glad I wasn't the only one irriated with Eko last night. My boss just watched VM last night and came in all chatty and verbal about it (he picked Woody and was completely surprised) and then we got to Lost and I was all - that one was kind of boring and he was all I loved it. I just was not interested in the almost drowning/lurking preacher brother storyline. Maybe I've seen too many Medium and Ghost Whisperer episodes. Maybe Locke will smash the button machine. He seems to be working up to some kind of breakdown, if you ask me. Paul turned on American Idiocy in the den because he got bored with Lost (after the first three minutes). Then he spent the next half-hour trying to watch both shows from the kitchen. The flashbacks were rather pedestrian, but the Eko/Locke interaction was pretty good.
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Post by Sara on May 11, 2006 15:34:15 GMT -5
Hello. LOL--I delurked in the VM thread and now I'm delurking here. I must register. Question--I went to that new website and just sat on it for awhile. I was able to click on some of the screens. After you waited, they rotated and the one I clicked on lit up. After waiting awhile for them ALL to light up, they disappeared and a TV screen appeared that said "Code" and then fuzz, and then "Heir Apparent" I'm not into the website Lost stuff at all, so I went to Hanso to see if there was a place to enter a code, and I couldn't find one. But I thought I'd pass that along if anyone had some idea of what to DO with the code...? My latest theory has Jack's father being involved with Hanso in some way. He's a doctor...he's not in his coffin, there's a life extension program, and he seems to be tied to more and more of the people on the plane. It's a broad, nonspecific theory, but my theory nonetheless. Welcome. As to the sublymonal website, the trick is this: find the first t.v. that changes your cursor from an arrow into a hand when you roll over it. Then click on it four times. The screen will grow brighter and then do the glowy thing. The t.v.s will rotate. Click on the next one in line 8 times--the same thing will happen. Next t.v., click 15 times. I'm sure you can guess the rest of the pattern from there. Once you've gotten the code, roll your cursor under the words "sublymonal code unlocked"--it again should change from an arrow to a pointer. Click that and it takes you to the executive biographies section of the Hanso web site. Switch to the second person--the guy just to the right of Alvar Hanso. You should see a box appear in the middle of the bio text. Enter "heir apparent" in there, and something interesting should happen.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on May 11, 2006 19:00:06 GMT -5
Eko has a bit of belly? oooh, dream sequence Help John. OK. images! too fast! bizarre and freaky. just the way I like it. it was light when michael shot ana and libby, so several hours later. No, not dead! and Michael's fucked... lack of medical supplies, will she survive? 20 minutes? No way! was thinking Charlie's confession for a moment. that would have been weird Mr. Caldwell. looks familiar Eko preaching in Australia why Eko's going to LA. Ha! Love it when Eko kicks ass. You were being "difficult" hee! It's not my hatch. Hmm. Is some one going to be resurrected? Ana-Lucia? the drug plane So who's crazier? Eko or Locke? Ah, the heroin, so Charlie's part in the con will come to light? Hidden in plain sight. Genius!! Dude! No one told Hurley? A day laters? He didn't go looking for her in the hatch? Eko is John? John is Eko? Eh? I'm amazed by Locke's ability to use crutches through the forest. It's the psychic!!!!! False miracles. zealots, faith conflicts Psychic is a fraud? Really? Cool!!!!!!! Can be seen by plane Are the other hatches marked as such? And the plane crashed here? Was it targeting the "?"? Another hatch. Abandoned? Eko's never bothered to get a new shirt? Abandoned for a long time, or so it seems. Observation room? Printing something... The Pearl Yeah, that's what the losties have been doing all this time: calesthenics. film was made later than the other one. Careful observation is the only key to true and complete awareness. I think all our Losties could use that piece of advice 3 weeks isolation and confinement experiments!!!! And then the observers are observed. and so on. pala ferry Locke is *not* amused. Would you like to watch that again? Hee. We push the button because we believe we are meant to. Eko vs Locke. anomie and alienation. Everyone's seen Yemi! Heavy shades of The Stand. Libby!!! ...And again my recording cut off. ptui.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on May 11, 2006 21:03:42 GMT -5
We push the button because we believe we are meant to. Eko vs Locke. anomie and alienation. OK, a lot of people have mentioned Eko's quote and have been bothered by it, so I'll expand what I meant here for people's edification. Academic text quotes now, cause I'm tired, explanation and what I remember from class later. So I took this class in college and one of the things we discussed was Marx's concept of alienation (I think most people are aware of this one) and Emile Durkheim's concept of anomie (not so familiar maybe). Eko's comment made me think of this, which is why I'm posting this. What Eko is talking about is preventing anomie. From www.philosophypages.com/hy/5o.htm
Marx and Engels: Communism
Nineteenth-century hought about social issues took a different turn with the work of such reformers as Godwin and Proudhon. The most comprehensive and influential new way of thinking about social, economic, and political issues was that developed by German philosopher Karl Marx. Like Ludwig Feuerbach, Marx belonged to a generation of German scholars who appropriated but diverged significantly from the teachings of Hegel.
Early in his own career, Marx outlined his disagreement with the master's political theories in A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right. Hegel's emphasis on the abstract achievements of Art, Religion, and Philosophy overlooked what is truly important in human life, according to Marx. Religion in particular is nothing more than a human creation with its own social origins and consequences: it gives expression to human suffering without offering any relief from it by disguising its genuine sources in social and economic injustice. Even philosophy, as an abstract discipline, is pointless unless it is transformed or actualized by direct application to practice.
Marx maintained that progress would best be founded on a proper understanding of industry and the origins of wealth, together with a realistic view of social conflict. Struggle between distinct economic classes, with the perpetual possibility of revolution, is the inevitable fate of European society. Specifically, Marx argued that the working-class of Germany has become the ideal vehicle for social revolution because of the loss of humanity it has suffered as a result of the industrialization of the German economy.
In the unfinished section on "Alienated Labor" from the Ökonomisch-philosophische Manuskripte aus dem Jahre 1844 (Economic and Political Manuscripts of 1844) (1844) Marx tried to draw out the practical consequences of the classical analysis of the creation of value through investment of human labor. To the very extent that the process is effective, he argued, it has a devastating effect on the lives of individual human beings.
Workers create products by mixing their own labor in with natural resources to make new, composite things that have greater economic value. Thus, the labor itself is objectified, its worth turned into an ordinary thing that can be bought and sold on the open market, a mere commodity. The labor now exists in a form entirely external to the worker, separated forever from the human being whose very life it once was. This is the root of what Marx called alienation, a destructive feature of industrial life.
Workers in a capitalistic economic system become trapped in a vicious circle: the harder they work, the more resources in the natural world are appropriated for production, which leaves fewer resources for the workers to live on, so that they have to pay for their own livelihood out of their wages, to earn which they must work even harder. When the very means of subsistence are commodities along with labor, their is no escape for the "wage slave."
Thus, Marx pointed out, workers are alienated in several distinct ways: from their products as externalized objects existing independently of their makers; from the natural world out of which the raw material of these products has been appropriated; from their own labor, which becomes a grudging necessity instead of a worthwhile activity; and from each other as the consumers of the composite products. These dire conditions, according to Marx, are the invariable consequences of industrial society. From: durkheim.itgo.com/anomie.html
Anomie "...The state of anomie is impossible whenever interdependent organs are sufficiently in contact and sufficiently extensive. If they are close to each other, they are readily aware, in every situation, of the need which they have of one-another, and consequently they have an active and permanent feeling of mutual dependence." (1972, p. 184 [excerpt from The Division of Labor in Society])
Durkheim defined the term anomie as a condition where social and/or moral norms are confused, unclear, or simply not present. Durkheim felt that this lack of norms--or preaccepted limits on behavior in a society--led to deviant behavior.
Anomie = Lack of Regulation / Breakdown of Norms
Industrialization in particular, according to Durkheim, tends to disolve restraints on the passions of humans. Where traditional societies--primarily through religion--successfully taught people to control their desires and goals, modern industrial societies separate people and weaken social bonds as a result of increased complexity and the division of labor. This is especially evident in modern society, where we are further separated and divided by computer technology, the internet, increasing beaurocracy, and specialization in the workplace. Perhaps more than ever before, members of Western society are exposed to the risk of anomie.
Durkheim also discussed anomie's effect on the goals of individuals, as well as their corresponding happiness. As social restraints are weakened, humans no longer have limits upon their desires and aspirations. Whereas their goals were previously limited by social order and morality, the goals now become infinite in scope. But Durkheim warns that, "one does not advance when one proceeds toward no goal, or -- which is the same thing -- when the goal is infinity. To pursue a goal which is by definition unattainable is to condemn oneself to a state of perpetual unhappiness" (From Suicide). This is a form of anomie.
Durkheim on Anomie:
"If the rules of the conjugal morality lose their authority, and the mutual obligations of husband and wife become less respected, the emotions and appetites ruled by this sector of morality will become unrestricted and uncontained, and accentuated by this very release; powerless to fulfill themselves because they have been freed from all limitations, these emotions will produce a disillusionment which manifests itself visibly..." (1972, p. 173 [excerpt from Moral Education])
"Man is the more vulnerable to self-destruction the more he is detached from any collectivity, that is to say, the more he lives as an egoist." (1972, p.113 [exceprt from Moral Education])
Sources: Giddens, Anthony. 1972. Emile Durkheim; Selected Writings. London: Cambridge University Press.
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Post by Maria on May 11, 2006 21:08:58 GMT -5
Hello. LOL--I delurked in the VM thread and now I'm delurking here. I must register. Question--I went to that new website and just sat on it for awhile. I was able to click on some of the screens. After you waited, they rotated and the one I clicked on lit up. After waiting awhile for them ALL to light up, they disappeared and a TV screen appeared that said "Code" and then fuzz, and then "Heir Apparent" I'm not into the website Lost stuff at all, so I went to Hanso to see if there was a place to enter a code, and I couldn't find one. But I thought I'd pass that along if anyone had some idea of what to DO with the code...? My latest theory has Jack's father being involved with Hanso in some way. He's a doctor...he's not in his coffin, there's a life extension program, and he seems to be tied to more and more of the people on the plane. It's a broad, nonspecific theory, but my theory nonetheless. Welcome. As to the sublymonal website, the trick is this: find the first t.v. that changes your cursor from an arrow into a hand when you roll over it. Then click on it four times. The screen will grow brighter and then do the glowy thing. The t.v.s will rotate. Click on the next one in line 8 times--the same thing will happen. Next t.v., click 15 times. I'm sure you can guess the rest of the pattern from there. Once you've gotten the code, roll your cursor under the words "sublymonal code unlocked"--it again should change from an arrow to a pointer. Click that and it takes you to the executive biographies section of the Hanso web site. Switch to the second person--the guy just to the right of Alvar Hanso. You should see a box appear in the middle of the bio text. Enter "heir apparent" in there, and something interesting should happen. Hi Sara! Thanks for the info. I did all that, but nothing is happening when I enter heir apparent. This time, I think it must be my computer. Hum...
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on May 11, 2006 21:16:16 GMT -5
#wavey# Maria! Glad you've joined us.
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Post by Maria on May 11, 2006 21:22:32 GMT -5
Thanks Liz
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Post by betsyAB on May 12, 2006 18:43:05 GMT -5
So is this whole thing some kind of social experiment to see what would happen if a diverse group of people were "stranded" on an island in the middle of nowhere? Would this anomie develop as the social norms broke down and the instinct for survival took over? Or because the dictates of society have no place on a deserted island, would people change their usual law abiding behavior and turn all deviant? Is that why that secret bunker was spying on the other one? My only question is why is Locke dreaming about Eko's brother, the Priest, and seeing him when he's never met him before? I mean, Jack is seeing his dead father, Eko is seeing his brother...didn't Kate see her stepdad? Dunno that one for sure, but how is the island picking up on this stuff? It actually kind of reminds me of that episode on Star Trek where Kirk, Spock and McCoy go to that pleasure planet and whatever they think of materializes. Kirk remembers his old friend and they have that big fight, and Spock thinks of the tiger and it pops into existence and chases him...you know what I mean. Just a wierd thought.
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Post by Lola m on May 13, 2006 12:24:52 GMT -5
Interesting: Locke responds to the island as we respond to the show - he's losing faith when we're bored, and when it gets exciting, he's back in the game. The island was losing Locke, and so it used him to recruit Eko. Oooooooh - good one!! **snickers** Got in over their heads, didn't they? **snickers more**
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Post by Lola m on May 13, 2006 12:27:17 GMT -5
It's the button pushing. Anyone who becomes an eager button pusher just . . . um . . . pushes my buttons, I guess. I want them to smash the button pushing machine!! Oh good - I'm glad I wasn't the only one irriated with Eko last night. My boss just watched VM last night and came in all chatty and verbal about it (he picked Woody and was completely surprised) and then we got to Lost and I was all - that one was kind of boring and he was all I loved it. I just was not interested in the almost drowning/lurking preacher brother storyline. Maybe I've seen too many Medium and Ghost Whisperer episodes. I actually liked the brother!dream stuff (especially when Locke dreamed Eko's dream), but I hate that what Eko seemed to get out of it was "yes, the button pushing is meaningless, therefore . . . it's very meaningful! and we must keep doing it". ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Lola m on May 13, 2006 12:30:29 GMT -5
Hello. LOL--I delurked in the VM thread and now I'm delurking here. I must register. #wavey# Yes! Delurk and join us! **makes vague hypnotising jazz hands motions** Joooiiinnn us, Maria, join us! ;D I like your broad, nonspecific theory. It puts an interesting spin on why Jack's dad keeps turning up as connected to so many of the plane passengers as well.
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Post by Lola m on May 13, 2006 12:38:20 GMT -5
We push the button because we believe we are meant to. Eko vs Locke. anomie and alienation. OK, a lot of people have mentioned Eko's quote and have been bothered by it, so I'll expand what I meant here for people's edification. Academic text quotes now, cause I'm tired, explanation and what I remember from class later. So I took this class in college and one of the things we discussed was Marx's concept of alienation (I think most people are aware of this one) and Emile Durkheim's concept of anomie (not so familiar maybe). Eko's comment made me think of this, which is why I'm posting this. What Eko is talking about is preventing anomie. From www.philosophypages.com/hy/5o.htm
Marx and Engels: Communism
Nineteenth-century hought about social issues took a different turn with the work of such reformers as Godwin and Proudhon. The most comprehensive and influential new way of thinking about social, economic, and political issues was that developed by German philosopher Karl Marx. Like Ludwig Feuerbach, Marx belonged to a generation of German scholars who appropriated but diverged significantly from the teachings of Hegel.
Early in his own career, Marx outlined his disagreement with the master's political theories in A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right. Hegel's emphasis on the abstract achievements of Art, Religion, and Philosophy overlooked what is truly important in human life, according to Marx. Religion in particular is nothing more than a human creation with its own social origins and consequences: it gives expression to human suffering without offering any relief from it by disguising its genuine sources in social and economic injustice. Even philosophy, as an abstract discipline, is pointless unless it is transformed or actualized by direct application to practice.
Marx maintained that progress would best be founded on a proper understanding of industry and the origins of wealth, together with a realistic view of social conflict. Struggle between distinct economic classes, with the perpetual possibility of revolution, is the inevitable fate of European society. Specifically, Marx argued that the working-class of Germany has become the ideal vehicle for social revolution because of the loss of humanity it has suffered as a result of the industrialization of the German economy.
In the unfinished section on "Alienated Labor" from the Ökonomisch-philosophische Manuskripte aus dem Jahre 1844 (Economic and Political Manuscripts of 1844) (1844) Marx tried to draw out the practical consequences of the classical analysis of the creation of value through investment of human labor. To the very extent that the process is effective, he argued, it has a devastating effect on the lives of individual human beings.
Workers create products by mixing their own labor in with natural resources to make new, composite things that have greater economic value. Thus, the labor itself is objectified, its worth turned into an ordinary thing that can be bought and sold on the open market, a mere commodity. The labor now exists in a form entirely external to the worker, separated forever from the human being whose very life it once was. This is the root of what Marx called alienation, a destructive feature of industrial life.
Workers in a capitalistic economic system become trapped in a vicious circle: the harder they work, the more resources in the natural world are appropriated for production, which leaves fewer resources for the workers to live on, so that they have to pay for their own livelihood out of their wages, to earn which they must work even harder. When the very means of subsistence are commodities along with labor, their is no escape for the "wage slave."
Thus, Marx pointed out, workers are alienated in several distinct ways: from their products as externalized objects existing independently of their makers; from the natural world out of which the raw material of these products has been appropriated; from their own labor, which becomes a grudging necessity instead of a worthwhile activity; and from each other as the consumers of the composite products. These dire conditions, according to Marx, are the invariable consequences of industrial society. From: durkheim.itgo.com/anomie.html
Anomie "...The state of anomie is impossible whenever interdependent organs are sufficiently in contact and sufficiently extensive. If they are close to each other, they are readily aware, in every situation, of the need which they have of one-another, and consequently they have an active and permanent feeling of mutual dependence." (1972, p. 184 [excerpt from The Division of Labor in Society])
Durkheim defined the term anomie as a condition where social and/or moral norms are confused, unclear, or simply not present. Durkheim felt that this lack of norms--or preaccepted limits on behavior in a society--led to deviant behavior.
Anomie = Lack of Regulation / Breakdown of Norms
Industrialization in particular, according to Durkheim, tends to disolve restraints on the passions of humans. Where traditional societies--primarily through religion--successfully taught people to control their desires and goals, modern industrial societies separate people and weaken social bonds as a result of increased complexity and the division of labor. This is especially evident in modern society, where we are further separated and divided by computer technology, the internet, increasing beaurocracy, and specialization in the workplace. Perhaps more than ever before, members of Western society are exposed to the risk of anomie.
Durkheim also discussed anomie's effect on the goals of individuals, as well as their corresponding happiness. As social restraints are weakened, humans no longer have limits upon their desires and aspirations. Whereas their goals were previously limited by social order and morality, the goals now become infinite in scope. But Durkheim warns that, "one does not advance when one proceeds toward no goal, or -- which is the same thing -- when the goal is infinity. To pursue a goal which is by definition unattainable is to condemn oneself to a state of perpetual unhappiness" (From Suicide). This is a form of anomie.
Durkheim on Anomie:
"If the rules of the conjugal morality lose their authority, and the mutual obligations of husband and wife become less respected, the emotions and appetites ruled by this sector of morality will become unrestricted and uncontained, and accentuated by this very release; powerless to fulfill themselves because they have been freed from all limitations, these emotions will produce a disillusionment which manifests itself visibly..." (1972, p. 173 [excerpt from Moral Education])
"Man is the more vulnerable to self-destruction the more he is detached from any collectivity, that is to say, the more he lives as an egoist." (1972, p.113 [exceprt from Moral Education])
Sources: Giddens, Anthony. 1972. Emile Durkheim; Selected Writings. London: Cambridge University Press.
Interesting. You've certainly given me something to think about. I'm not sure I agree with all that the quoted folks are saying (for example, I don't think a removal of limitations has to lead to a detachment from or feeling toward others any more than the imposition of rules does - but that's another argument) and the button pushing still drives me batty. But the ideas are very intriguing and I could easily see them as being something the island experiment was meant to investigate.
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Post by Lola m on May 13, 2006 12:41:01 GMT -5
So is this whole thing some kind of social experiment to see what would happen if a diverse group of people were "stranded" on an island in the middle of nowhere? Would this anomie develop as the social norms broke down and the instinct for survival took over? Or because the dictates of society have no place on a deserted island, would people change their usual law abiding behavior and turn all deviant? Is that why that secret bunker was spying on the other one? My only question is why is Locke dreaming about Eko's brother, the Priest, and seeing him when he's never met him before? I mean, Jack is seeing his dead father, Eko is seeing his brother...didn't Kate see her stepdad? Dunno that one for sure, but how is the island picking up on this stuff? It actually kind of reminds me of that episode on Star Trek where Kirk, Spock and McCoy go to that pleasure planet and whatever they think of materializes. Kirk remembers his old friend and they have that big fight, and Spock thinks of the tiger and it pops into existence and chases him...you know what I mean. Just a wierd thought. Oooh, yeah!! And the planet people didn't realise at first that the Enterprise crew didn't know what was going on - didn't know they were supposed to be using the planet to have fun! And didnt someone die? I think Bones died but they made him alive again? 'Cuz that has interesting implications too.
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