|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 18:16:26 GMT -5
The "FABS" Four! ;-) I also like the idea of Faith becoming a vamp! Now wouldn't THAT have put the ol' CoW in a long spin cycle - a Slayer becoming a vampire. I'll bet they'd tell you it's "never happened" before but I'd say it'd be possible. Who would you have sire her?
Oh - Merry Christmas, everyone!
Miss Pamela
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 18:19:19 GMT -5
FABS four? Miss Pamela, you are so clever! Who would sire Faith? Well, first we need an excuse to rid Angel of his pesky soul temporarily. Then Angelus would sire Faith after the obligatory wild sex scene. No post coital, snuggly “do you even like me?” conversation for our Angelus, no siree.
This time, I must remember to remove my glasses before watching. After I watched Buffy & Spike in “Smashed”, the lenses cracked from the pressure of steam build up behind them. Or maybe they cracked from the impact when my eyeballs hit the inside of the glass? Or maybe when I fell off the couch? I dunno, because once Spike’s zipper sounded, that look on his face, I . . . uh . . . what was I talking about? Oh. Angel. Faith’s future. Right.
Yes, Faith, as a vampire, could literally vamp it up all along the Southern California coastline – making guest shots and getting Xander, Spike, Principal Wood, Angel, Gunn or Wesley all hot and bothered as the mood strikes her. Now, that’s not such a bad six-pack for a girl to choose from.
Don’t tell me that wouldn’t be fun!
Spring Summers
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 18:20:44 GMT -5
Spike telling Angel to go fist and fangs was more because he new Angel when he was Angelus. Spike had no love for Angelus, but Angel he didn't respect because he was a brooding do-gooder. I think how he now feels about Angel is different, especially the part about having a soul. I can see what you mean by on the surface Spike and Faith are alike, but to me she reminds me more of Angel. Her going to him for help, spoke volumes. She identified with his struggle to come to grips with what he had done as Angelus. Faith was lost when she arrived in Sunnydale and by the time she left she was broken. Even though she didn't spend a hundred years dealing with the consequences of being a Slayer who took a human life and aligned herself with a demon, her struggle to come to terms with the blood on her hands was similiar to what Angel went through. From the beginning Faith and Liam were troubled souls, both hated who and what they were.
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 18:22:08 GMT -5
Torah and Spring, you both make such GREAT points here. After reading Torah's last post, I think, too, on the surface, Faith & Spike have more in common, but underneath - the angst and pain, etc. - yes, Faith and Angel have a lot to relate to each other as well. I haven't seen the whole AtS ep(s) where she goes to him for help, but I'm a little familiar with what happens and do want to see these. I'd almost say, without a LOT of deep thought into it, that Faith's even a more complex character than Buffy is. But then, all of the "FABS Four" (glad you liked that, Spring!) are complex characters, which is partly what makes them so darn fascinating.
Hey, Spring - bet you never thought that a TV episode's name would reflect what happened to your eyewear if you watched it! Oh, gawd... I wear contacts and am glad I do for several reasons, one being that my own glasses would have just gotten so steamed over that I wouldn't have seen one darn thing!! Oh, yes - Angel... ;-)
Yes, I think having Angelus turn Faith makes the most sense - and from what rumblings I've heard on a little spoilage, I think that would be totally feasible and in line with what just MIGHT and COULD happen in the upcoming AtS AND BtVS series! Many have speculated that Angelus will return; that Faith will appear in both L.A. and Sunnydale this season; that Faith may die so a new Slayer will be called (and I REALLY sorta hope it won't be Dawn). But I really would like to see Faith stick around post BtVS S7 - and her becoming a vampire would not only allow that to happen, but would be consistent with all of the 3 speculations I listed above.
Man, you talk about a MAJOR "Big Bad" female vamp - with powers both of a Slayer AND a vampire! So many interesting possibilites could arise! For instance, how would you like to see a showdown between Drusilla and Faith over either Angelus or Spike!! Whooo-eee!! I'D LOVE to see it, for sure! It'd likely have a different element than the fights between Faith and Buffy but still! No lame, tame "catfight" here - it'd be a full-bore battle of lionesses; fists, fangs, and fingernails (claws) aplenty!!! Yeah, Dru isn't the athlete Faith is, but she's got the mental mojo skills, plus over a century of vamp experience - so it could be interesting!
Vamp Faith would really bring a lot of cool variables to the JossVerse! Oh, and could she play some mind games with Xander! ;-)
Miss Pamela
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 18:23:53 GMT -5
Yes, the FABS foursome is really quite complex. On the surface I think we have Faith = Spike, and Angel = Buffy. But you are definitely right, Torah, we also have Faith having very strong similarities to Angel, and Spike having similarities to Buffy . . . I said I thought I could write a 20 page paper, but here are some much condensed thoughts: Actually, I do think there is a sort of twisted love between Spike & Angel (as between Faith & Buffy, even after Buffy tries to kill her and truly hates her for almost killing Angel). It is very competitive and nasty and hateful, but still like siblings – I mean the way siblings can hate each other so violently and do such terrible things to each other, because they also can’t help but love each other.
Spike is so very “little brother” – in fact, I think part of the reason he wants Buffy is because she was once with Angel. And Faith is very little sister – and part of the reason she wants Angel is because he was once Buffy’s. This isn’t the MAIN reason they are interested in Buffy or Angel, but it is part of the package.
Remember how Angelus kisses Spike on the forehead when he first loses his soul and “returns” to Dru & Spike? Later, we will see Buffy kiss Faith on the forehead also.
Also, as Faith went to Angel for help, Spike is now going to Buffy for help. They do see their salvation in the other person, and are attracted to the very “hero” qualities they pretend to disdain in Angel & Buffy. Faith knows that not only does Angel understand her, but he is trustworthy and has been through a lot, has felt as she has. He not only CAN help her he WILL help her, selflessly. Same for Spike with Buffy these days - the self-loathing thing for these two as well.
Also true, Torah, neither Spike nor Faith give out “why not just go wild” advice to Angel and Buffy because they are trying to be oh so helpful. They are basically taunting Angel & Buffy, and also I think, trying to seem superior and seeking approval and admiration. Both Spike and Faith LOVE to brag.
OK, I’d better quit before I really do write that 20 pages. It really is a complex picture with these four, but I do love them. Wouldn’t a scene with all four be just ducky? Whew! Where would they all end up when the dust settled?
Spring Summers
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 18:24:39 GMT -5
Has anyone been able to tell if the leather coat TFE "Spike" appears in is THE coat? I don't have cable and my reception isn't great. It's even worse on my tapes, so the picture quality I have is too grainy to make out fine detail. In Never Leave me, after Buffy pulls Spike off of Andrew and slams him against the wall, he is staring past Buffy to TFE "Spike" standing behind and to the side of her. He's wearing a black leather coat and we get a very fleeting full body shot. Is it? On my tape it looks as if it isn't quite long enough; I think I can see the bed-spread through his legs and if it were The duster you wouldn't be able to because it's so long.
Also, the leather coat that Andrew aquired is a just a wannabe, right? They wouldn't let Andrew wear Spike's duster, would they? He isn't worthy. No one else should be wearing it.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 18:30:05 GMT -5
Andrew said the duster was new when Anya took it, so I'm sure it's not Spike's. And I don't think the First Evil, since it's incorporeal, could wear an actual duster, (but I think that it's the same coat that the actor is wearing).
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 18:31:08 GMT -5
Spring wrote: "Actually, I do think there is a sort of twisted love between Spike & Angel (as between Faith & Buffy, even after Buffy tries to kill her and truly hates her for almost killing Angel). It is very competitive and nasty and hateful, but still like siblings – I mean the way siblings can hate each other so violently and do such terrible things to each other, because they also can’t help but love each other." Yes, I think the series, which the creators have stated does have wide-open room for several subtexts, does hint at this "love" between Spike & Angel. I really don't care much for slash fanfic, but admittedly I've read some that involve Spike & Angelus (usually set in the context of several pairings and/or historical flashbacks - Buffy/Spike, Buffy/Angel, Dru/Spike/Angelus, etc.). The ones I've seen don't seem as much based on the typical homosexual relationship (like Willow & Tara) as it is the "blood bond" between Sire & Childe (with ANY vampire in your "line" also considered your "sire").
Spring said: "Wouldn’t a scene with all four be just ducky? Whew! Where would they all end up when the dust settled?"
It would be WONDERFUL! But I must admit I cringed a little bit at your last choice of words... NO DUST, PLEASE!!! ;-)
Miss Pamela
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 18:32:35 GMT -5
I knew TFE "Spike" couldn't be wearing the physical duster but I was just trying to figure out if the black leather coat he appears in is the image of Spike's old duster. I wish we'd get a better shot of him in it. But it makes sense that it would be. TFE has to get into one's head to absorb the memories and/or images that would be the most effective against his intended target. That duster has to be a vivid part of Spike's image of himself, at least of his *bad side*. I miss Spike in that duster although I can appreciate the symbolic value of him letting it go. (I wonder if Buffy put it away for him somewhere - I can't see her throwing it out.) Anyway, it's nice to see an image of Spike, albeit TFE Spike, back in the duster again.
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 18:34:24 GMT -5
When Angelus tells Spike in Becoming Pt 2 that it feels good having him watch his back, almost like old times, that was an admission of that "affection." I've never read any of the slash stuff on the net, Miss Pamela if you wouldn't mind sharing a few sites I would appreciate it. I always found it funny how fans would write love stories about Spock and Jim's relationship. I the Angel/Spike stories are at least interesting and thought provoking...
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 18:35:48 GMT -5
I definitely did not mean to imply anything sexual between Spike & Angel – ugh. Absurdly out of character and vaguely incestuous on top of that. I know it’s bad when I am picturing Cordy & Connor in order to CLEANSE the mind. Yes, Torah, good example about "affection" between Spike & Angel. Also, I noticed that Angelus loves to torment Spike, which is the way Angelus shows he "cares".
Yes, Miss Pamela, “dust” was bad word choice – no dust!
Here are some more thoughts on FABS before I make myself STOP.
The way Faith makes fun of Buffy (it’s WRONG!!!) is much like the way Spike mocks Angel’s upright hero thing.
Also, Faith is the one who jump-starts Buffy & Spike’s relationship. Before Spike runs into Faith-in-Buffy at the Bronze, he claims to be revolted by Buffy. In “Something Blue”, he acts just as disgusted about “having Buffy taste” in his mouth, as Buffy acts about “lips of Spike!”.
Enter Faith a few episodes later. She pushes Buffy’s body up against Spike and tells him she could ride him till his knees buckled and he popped like warm champagne. Uh oh. What was it Mom told me about teasing guys this way? And this guy is what? A frustrated predator in black leather? Oh Faith, you troublemaking little tart!!
Spike’s tone toward Buffy changes from here on, and he eventually begins his relentless pursuit. Of course Faith didn’t create the feelings they had between them, she just causes them to face their feelings. And as ugly as the Buffy/Spike relationship becomes, they both – individually and to their credit – ultimately are benefiting greatly from their association – learning things about themselves, learning to love and accept everything about themselves, growing up - rather than choosing to become permanently embittered or depressed.
So on the surface, we see Angel = Faith’s salvation, and Buffy = Spike’s salvation– but in truth, Faith & Spike also play a part in the salvation of Buffy and Angel, and each other. For – to paraphrase the Prayer of St Francis – it’s in saving others that we are saved.
Spring Summers
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 18:38:07 GMT -5
Spring/Miss Pamela: I for one can't wait for Faith's appearance on Angel and Buffy. I won't go on to say anything further relating to Angel-I made the mistake of reading a site that posted spoilers, but let us just say the sparks are definately going to fly!!!
If I were to give Angel a love interest believe you me, it wouldn't be Cordelia. I would choose Faith in a non-heartbeat! She is a fantastic character that should have been explored more than what she has been. I do think her layer of badness and attempts at redemption add a certain nuance to her that Buffy just doesn't have. They are similiar characters, both are deep, but in different ways. Which is a testament to Joss, SMG and ED talents. The same can be said for Spike and Angel, two very similiar, but very different characters.
Spring I say you write that twenty page essay to get us started!
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:12:22 GMT -5
I'm a little confused: Does the encounter with Faith-in-Buffy's body happen before or after Out of My Mind? I thought that was the episode that showed us Spike's feeling for Buffy. :So on the surface, we see Angel = Faith’s salvation, and Buffy = Spike’s salvation– but in truth, Faith & Spike also play a part in the salvation of Buffy and Angel, and each other. For – to paraphrase the Prayer of St Francis – it’s in saving others that we are saved.
I don't really think that Faith has played a part in Angel's salvation-as of yet. After this season things may be different, but from what we know now Angel was the one doing the saving for Faith. I don't think that you can compare Faith and Angel to Spike and Buffy. With Spike and Buffy the salvation is directly related to both. Spike helps Buffy come to terms with living and she helps him to regain confidence in himself and cope with having a soul. Faith hasn't done that for Angel. The last part about saving others, yes I do agree with that. This is why Angel spends his time doing good, because in the end he wants to atone and be saved in return.
Spring, I also know you didn't mean that kind of relationship for Spike and Angel, but I'm certain there are many people out there who do mean just that!
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:14:14 GMT -5
Maybe I've been reading too much fanfic, but I could picture Buffy & Spike getting ready to head out her front door to a (final?) apocolyptic battle, when Buffy stops and says, "Wait a minute, Spike..." - then she runs upstairs and comes back down with his duster. "You'll need this if you're to fight at 100%." *sniff*
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:14:56 GMT -5
Torah, the Faith-in-Buffy episode I believe you're referring to is "Who Are You" (S4.16), and "Out Of My Mind" was S5.04. So yes, it was before Spike's dream, but it's sure possible that little incident with Faith-in-Buffy gettin' "bubbly" with him in the Bronze may well have further nurtured along his feelings for Buffy
|
|