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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:16:35 GMT -5
Spring wrote: "I definitely did not mean to imply anything sexual between Spike & Angel – ugh. Absurdly out of character and vaguely incestuous on top of that. I know it’s bad when I am picturing Cordy & Connor in order to CLEANSE the mind." Oh, my GAWD... we've brought poor Spring to a Cordy/Connor vision? That's AWFUL! My apologies! No, I didn't necessarily think you specifically meant anything sexual between Spike & Angel, and the series doesn't come out and say anything to indicate that either. But while I think the Fang Boys are primarily straight, there's just SOMETHING in their chemistry that has a whiff of a suggestion that the love/hate between them has a physical element to it, and I think the blood ties / vampirism is the cause of that. Otherwise, I wouldn't be inclined to think this at all. A lot of fanfic writers, for some reason, see this same type of slashy inclinations in Spike and *gak!* Xander, but I DON'T! Again, I think the sire/childe/blood/vamp factor makes a difference. Torah, here are a few - understandably, they're TOTALLY NC-17. And honestly, I SWEAR I'm not a trashy smut-bunny - I NEVER have read or even remotely enjoyed the thought of anything that even hinted at slahsy - but that's just how intriguing and addicting these characters are for me, with my focus on my numero uno Spike. Normally I'd be offended at this type of stuff, but "I'm under his thrall" I guess. ;-) "A Little Love" at AllAboutSpike.com - Spike comments he knows Angel better than Buffy does; she presses the issue so he tells her about his turning and early vamp days. www.allaboutspike.com/fic/265.html "Breaking A Slayer" by Dark Rhiannon - Ironically, this story's foundation is the Faith-in-Buffy ep, but here Faith goes on to cause FAR more grief for Buffy than what the TV series could show. It's LONG and GRAPHIC but it's pretty compelling - plus if you like lots of, er, "action", it's here. ;-) www.starrkitty.150m.com/rhiannonpage.html (scroll down to the middle of this page for the link to this story) You can also find lots of links to various pairings and orientations; the Buffy Fiction Archive (http://archive.shriftweb.org/) now has over 1300 stories and has a GREAT "Quick Search" feature to quickly look for stories by pairings, etc. AllAboutSpike.com is also a good fanfic resource. One site I've NOT really checked out too thoroughly but on the surface it looks well done (and of course the Title says a lot) is "Slashing The Angel" at www.ficbitch.com/slashingtheangel/home.html - and it now has some non-slash fic too, I understand. Hope that gives you some starters, Torah - if some of this stuff offends you, I wouldn't be surprised but my intent isn't to offend or even corrupt anyone. I thinking we're all adults and we decide for ourselves. Okay, I'm gonna slink back under my rock now - or better yet, back into Spike's crypt. |-) Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:18:17 GMT -5
"Poofter." According to website, "The Best of British. The American's Guide to Speaking British" (http://www.effingpot.com/index.html):
"Poofter - An extended version of the word 'poof', this is how you could refer either to a gay man or to a guy who is being a bit of a nancy boy or woofter."
"Nancy boy - If someone is being pathetic you would call them a nancy or a nancy boy. It is the opposite of being hard. For example in cold weather a nancy boy would dress up in a coat, hat, gloves and scarf and a hard guy would wear a t-shirt. It's also another word for a gay man."
"Woofter - If you are a gay man you might be called a "woolly woofter" or just woofter. This is one of the less offensive terms."
So either Spike just calls Angel "The Great Poofter" (or some variation) as a general insult like many straight guys will do to each other, or it's a more veiled insult... Like I said earlier, ME purposely messes with our minds and leaves it easy to imagine all sorts of sub-texts in their stories. Those wankers. ;-)
Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:20:41 GMT -5
Torah: Faith-in-Buffy's "come on" to Spike is BEFORE "Out of My Mind" - probably 6 or 7 episodes before. And what I am saying is that Faith's actions very directly contribute to Spike's "Out of My Mind" realization, and following pursuit of Buffy. Just watch Spike after the episode where Faith (as Buffy) comes on to him . . . his attitude toward Buffy starts to take on a much more overtly sexual caste. To Spike, Buffy makes the first overtly sexual move. Before Faith pushes Buffy's body up against him in the Bronze, all Spike and Buffy have ever done is hurl insults at each other, and act like they hate each other. Yes, they make minor "flirty" type comments - but those comments are always dripping with sarcasm or menace.
I think Spike's belief that BUFFY made the first move helps explain Spike's anger and frustration in "Crush" as well. To him, Buffy is an incredible tease! Of course, poor Buffy is clueless on this, and it doesn't begin to excuse Spike's outrageous behavior. But it is part of the picture.
And I agree that Spike and Buffy are more directly involved in "saving each other" than Faith and Angel - with Faith and Angel it is more one-sided (Angel helping/saving Faith). Their relationship is nowhere near as fully developed, of course. But still, I do think Angel perceives helping Faith as helping himself, as part of saving himself. And that it is a part of Angel's atonement and redemption.
Torah - I am now looking forward to Faith's return on Angel more than ever, due to your comments about sparks flying!
Miss Pamela: I forgive you the Cordy/Connor images dancing through my head!
Edited By Spring Summers at 12/28/2002 10:38:00 AM.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:22:00 GMT -5
I don't really think that Faith has played a part in Angel's salvation-as of yet...: Torah, I think Faith plays a part in Angel's salvation by the act of Angel's attempt to help Faith.
Diane U
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:23:12 GMT -5
:...it's sure possible that little incident with Faith-in-Buffy gettin' "bubbly" with him in the Bronze may well have further nurtured along his feelings for Buffy. : If you watch Spike's face during Faith/Buffy's speech, you can see him responding with increasing interest. You also see more than a little disappointment when she shoots him down at the end of it. If Spike didn't have an interest in Buffy (beyond the obsession with Slayers that was already there) up until to that point, he certainly did have one afterward.
However, my belief is that he's been fascinated all along. Every encounter he's ever had with her has been tinged with sexual innuendo. His verbal spats with her were always flirtatious even when he was threatening to rip her apart. Check him out during the second season Halloween episode, when the spellbound Buffy really is helpless. His body language is even more telling. I refer to (among other things) the battle in S4 when he finds the Jewel of Amara. He looks like he's going to jump on her even when he's beating the crap out of her.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:37:52 GMT -5
Diane - Yes, I definitely agree - there is heat between Buffy & Spike almost from the very beginning. But they basically both identify the feelings as hatred, and bloodlust (as opposed to sexual lust). They might be willng to admit the other person is sexually attractive to look at(certainly Spike seems willing to admit this -he calls her cutie and the like).
But until Faith does her bit, all they admit to themselves and to anyone else, is that they hate each other, want to kill each other, etc.
We see that in Brazil, Dru confronts Spike, but he is very much in denial. We also see Parker ask Buffy (in the Amara Gem episode you mention) if she dated Spike. He's picked up some kind of vibe. Buffy overreacts in her denial, and immediately removes her jacket (suddenly warm, Buffy?).
Faith doesn't create the feelings between them. She just gives the two of them a shove past their denial - we see the denial is firmly in tact only a few episodes before in "Something Blue" - check out how much they both overdo the "UGH!" when the spell is broken.
In my opinion, Faith gives them a big, important shove.
I mean . . . if you push a guy up against a wall, lean all over him, tell him you could ride him at a gallop till he popped like warm champagne, etc . . . uh . . . if the guy has the slighest interest, even if he's been denying it to himself - well, I think consequences are almost inevitable. And Faith's behavior does result in consequences for Buffy & Spike.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:48:46 GMT -5
I recently read an old interview/chat transcript with James (can't remember where) and he says something like, "I knew that whoever was trying to kill Buffy or who was romantically involved with her would be central to the series, so I played an attraction to her that wasn't written into the script." I think this was dated around the time "Something Blue" aired. And looking back, it really is true. One of my favorite moments between them was at the end of Season 2, where they form an uneasy alliance against Angel. Spike offers his help, Buffy says "I hate you" and Spike says, "And I'm all you've got" and they walk into Buffy's house side by side, holding each other's gaze.
Athene V
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:49:45 GMT -5
I've only read a couple of slash fics but for a very interesting S/A fic try (ficbitch.com/fistandfangs/manyloves01.html.) It's called *Many Loves* by Jessica Walker and is definately NC-17 slash, but it's an interesting perspective on what it was like after Spike's turning and how Angelus asserts his dominance.She writes really well, but not for the faint hearted.
Rusty Goode
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:51:11 GMT -5
Torah, I think Faith plays a part in Angel's salvation by the act of Angel's attempt to help Faith.
Of course I agree with that, but not when compared to how Buffy saves Spike. Buffy and Spike have a more developed relationship and they are saving one another. Angel and Faith's relationship is more onesided.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:52:03 GMT -5
Maybe Angelus shared some bedroom secrets about that famous Slayer stamina:) Now I go back to being an adult
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:52:56 GMT -5
Miss Pamela/Rusty, Thanks for the sites. I haven't had a chance to read anything yet, but I'll definately be taking a look.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:53:33 GMT -5
There is an interesting essay by Victoria Spah in the December 2001 issue (#5) of "Slayage: the On-line International Journal of Buffy Studies" called,"Ain't Love Grand: Spike & Courtly Love". The web site is: www.slayage.tv/ . Click on Slayage 1. Then choose No. 5. I wonder if Joss Whedon has deliberately incorporated the idea of courtly love in the character, Spike. The theme is all about becoming a better man which is the Spike character in a nutshell. Perhaps it is just coincidence because Spike was originally going to be a short-term character. Athene V wrote, "I recently read an old interview/chat transcript with James (can't remember where) and he says something like, "I knew that whoever was trying to kill Buffy or who was romantically involved with her would be central to the series, so I played an attraction to her that wasn't written into the script." And I read an interview where James Marsters said a similar thing about his guest spot on "Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda". He stated that the character he was supposed to play was written as a fop but he decided that the ruler of a planet couldn't be a real wimp so he played the part as "decadent but dangerous" (see tv.zap2it.com/sciencefiction/otherworlds.html?2216 for a cute article on James Marsters' guest shot and his problem with standing next to Kevin Sorbo who is 6'3".) So it appears that James Marsters is savvy enough to subtly re-design parts to fit his strengths and increase his impact.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:54:14 GMT -5
James’ whole performance, and interviews I’ve read and seen –he just seems very intelligent to me. Maybe I am being influenced by the size of that cranium. The man has an enormous head. I wonder what his hat size is. One more job for the measuring tape! I also really like the whole Buffy/Spike “I hate you” encounter, from the police car to when they leave Buffy’s house. I love the way they efficiently dispatch that vampire in front of the house as if they had been working together for years. Any theories on why the choice was made for Buffy to reveal her big secret to her Mom in front of Spike, of all people?
I recently saw “Something Blue” on our UPN channel weekend reruns. And there are just a million little things to notice in it. What struck me this time was when Giles says something about needing help, and Buffy - as she settles into Spike’s lap - says, “I’m completely on top of it!”. Hee. Indeed you are Buffy, completely!!
At the end, Spike mocks Buffy’s choice of “Wind Beneath My Wings” for their first dance. Buffy says “It was the spell!” – though we can see she is embarrassed to have revealed that she likes this sappy song. This small moment speaks to the whole encounter– Willow’s spell gets Buffy & Spike betrothed, but it doesn’t cause the complete inability to keep their lips and hands off each other.
I firmly believe that by the time James became a regular in Season 4, the writers already had the Buffy/Spike affair planned. It didn’t happen as a result of pressure from B/S shippers – I think it was vice-versa. The pressure from B/S shippers resulted from all the set-up the writers were doing.
Torah: Please don’t go back to being an adult for too long, and return to all this adolescent fun as soon as possible.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:56:44 GMT -5
Hello all! It seems like a dog's age since I have posted, but I check out the Spike-centric board and there are all the regular posters. It seems we've got ourselves a pretty exclusive little club. Yeah us! I'm been drawn out of my little reclusive holiday nutshell by a comment made by Diane Ullman (good job Diane!) regarding Spike's (apparent) slayer obsession. He is indeed obsessed. And, I would venture to guess that this obsession goes way back. Back to before he was a vampire pehaps? Would it not be interesting if William had known/been attracted to a slayer during his mortal days? Cecily perhaps? (Okay let's not get back into the Cecily/Halfrek discussion at this juncture.) If William weren't such a complete dweeb, I would even have ventured that he had once been married to a slayer. Though William hardly strikes me as having been married, I would think that a woman would have straightened him out. But the untimely death of a slayer/wife could account for William's uncertainty and bruised soul. Slayers after all, do not have the expiration date of a Cheeto. But then again, did William have a sister? I wouldn't think that his mother was a slayer, what with that non-Cheeto thing... Anyway, all that rambling is meant to spark discussion among the more intuitive and insightful among you. Please, disect this hypothesis as you will. (Just no name calling please ;-) ) Also, Spring--You are just adding up the uses for that measuring tape aren't you you little vixen you And now, I'm off to check out that last interview Alexandra mentioned. Toodles, M. Edited By Watergal =^..^= at 12/29/2002 7:02:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:57:47 GMT -5
I wish the whole length of JM were visible like it was in the episode (great washboard abs and slinky satin gray pants) but a nice pic anyway. His makeup was softer than as Spike and his hair was growing out. The episode was in the second season of "Andromeda" and it was called, "Into the Labyrinth". I think someone asked for any other places JM could be seen acting in another role. If you can find this episode, he was a featured guest. And rumor has it that he will reprise his role this season sometime, maybe. www.ladymaigrey.com/seasontwo/labyrinth/062.jpg Alexandra K.
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