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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 19:59:57 GMT -5
Buffy' Characters Infest Top 10 List Sun, Dec 29, 2002 12:01 PM PDT LOS ANGELES (Zap2it.com) - In a poll commissioned by the science fiction magazine SFX to determine the top 10 sci fi characters of all time, cult hit "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" made an impressive showing, with Spike, Willow, Angel and Buffy herself taking four of the slots. Three of the remaining six spots were also taken by TV characters, including "Farscape's" John Crichton and Aeryn Sun. However, the top spot went to Dr. Who, the eccentric Brit who traveled through time and space in the guise of several actors over the course of 26 years from 1963 to '89. The Top 10 Sci Fi Characters of All Time, in order, is as follows: 1. Doctor Who ("Doctor Who" ) 2. Spike ("Buffy the Vampire Slayer") 3. Buffy Summers("Buffy the Vampire Slayer") 4. John Crichton ("Farscape") 5. Aeryn Sun ("Farscape") 6. Han Solo (the "Star Wars" saga) 7. Willow Rosenberg ("Buffy the Vampire Slayer") 8. Darth Vader (the "Star Wars" saga) 9. Angel ("Buffy the Vampire Slayer") 10. Gandalf ("Lord of the Rings" ) tv.zap2it.com/news/tvnewsdaily.html?29456 Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:06:05 GMT -5
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:06:54 GMT -5
"there is heat between Buffy & Spike almost from the very beginning. But they basically both identify the feelings as hatred, and bloodlust (as opposed to sexual lust)." I agree too. I remember in What's My Line, when Kendra is fighting Spike and Buffy calls switch, Spike says "I'd rather be fighting you." and Buffy says, "Mutual." And Buffy seems to acknowledge something is different during their first fight in school hard, when she says, Do we really need weapons for this? Huh? When are weapons in a fight to the death a bad idea? Just can't wait to get your bare hands on him? Of course, since Spike was supposed to be a short term character, I'm sure I'm so over-interpreting, but it's much more fun that way.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:07:40 GMT -5
"And Faith's behavior does result in consequences for Buffy & Spike." And neither Spike nor Buffy ever knew. I think it would be really cool if Faith came back and this came up. Like maybe Buffy saw her and Spike was there and said, oh, and this is Spike, and she said, oh we already met, I mean, oops, never mind! I wonder if it would affect Buffy and Spike's relationship if they were to find out now. I think it would definitely make Buffy more mad at Faith (if she weren't too busy with the first evil to care) ... hey, wouldn't that make Parker be the only guy Buffy's been involved with that Faith hasn't messed with at some point? She slept with Riley as Buffy, she kissed Angel in front of Buffy (unless I'm remembering wrong), and she even flirted with Scott Hope. (Which apparently wouldn't have made much difference in the long run.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:08:15 GMT -5
If you can get to the essay *Lessons on Negative Space* Nan Dibble recommended on a topic above this one, it's well worth the read. And since I just saw The Two Towers last night, which has more than one epic battle scene (especially the last one), where the heros fight against all odds not because they're in love with death, not in the hope that this time death will choose them, but because they choose to fight against their foes with all their heart and they're not afraid of dying as the result of that choice. I know you can't say that fist-and fangs-Spike has a higher cause. But he does have a personal cause he's fighting for, and that's the liberation of himself from the constraints, boundaries and social conventions of the Victorian, repressed, William and the dullness of his humanity. Newly born Spike is willing to go out in the firey radiance of his own effulgence while Angelus plods along, bound by the dull conventions of repetitive evil which he calls "skill". No wonder Angelus tortures. He's bored. No wonder we still like evil Spike so much. He just enjoys being able to be bad so much! Mwah, ha,ha, ha,ha!
I'm also pulling for redeemed Spike, but I do miss the snarking.
Also, I've said it before but I'll say it again....there's a road trip to hell in Buffy and Spike's future and it will be voluntary.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:09:03 GMT -5
Spring Summers said in post #43: "I firmly believe that by the time James became a regular in Season 4, the writers already had the Buffy/Spike affair planned. It didn’t happen as a result of pressure from B/S shippers – I think it was vice-versa. The pressure from B/S shippers resulted from all the set-up the writers were doing." Well, Spring, you called it right. The excerpt below is a quote from JM circa season 4 as he speaks to Joss Whedon: "Pointing to his muscles, Marsters joked: "It's your product, you want to make it ready. And Joss got this weird look on his face and called me over to the side of the sound stage and said, 'Get ready, dude, cause you're going to go for Buffy next year.'" This is an excerpt from a long article full of comments by JM. It appears to be a compilation of various interviews done with JM, but all in one nice, tidy place to read. litefoot1969.bravepages.com/buffy/news/marsters.htm Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:10:22 GMT -5
I doubt I'm a real B/S shipper, but the more I think about it, the more Spike becomes the best choice for Buffy in the long run. Now that we're past the resurrection polka and its attendant abuses, consider: Buffy's issues with men are well-founded. Every man she has ever trusted has ended up leaving her.
Who were they?
Her Father. The man who was so important in her life couldn't even be bothered to look in on her when Joyce died.
Angel. Angel was older (MUCH older), experienced, wise, and gentle. He clearly loved her back, protected her and made her feel safe as she adjusted to her calling. He supported her when no one else would take her seriously. I believe that Buffy transferred a lot of the love she had for her Dad to Angel. Then he went bad. Then he went to Hell. Then he came back. Then he left.
Giles. The remainder of Buffy's love for her father went to Giles, his replacement. Giles could scold, guide, correct, even discipline Buffy when no one else could control her. He accepted her confidences and bridged two cultural differences (British/American and Watcher/Civilian) in order to learn to understand her. He loved her despite the injunctions from the Watcher's Council and went right on acting as her Watcher even when he was fired. Then he, too, left.
Parker. The less said the better.
Riley. I may be the only person who liked "Captain Vanilla". He was good, decent, upright...a boy scout. But too insecure in his relationship with Buffy. Riley adored Buffy. He could deal with the blood 'n' guts part of their lives but not the emotional side. So he left.
So who else is there? Who stuck it out? Who took and loved the whole Buffy package, emotional issues, insecurities, neuroses, even violence? Who isn't afraid of her? Who matches her? Who treats her as an equal? Who will never, ever leave?
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:11:29 GMT -5
Yes, the negative space article was a good one! I recommend it to anyone interested in BtVS. I do agree that Spike & Buffy’s journey is going to include a voluntary visit to hell this season – I just hope they both make it back. “The Gift” was rerun recently and I was really struck by those tower scenes as I had not been before – Spike, taking that long, long nasty fall to the ground. He did avoid the crack in the earth though, and he did get back up.
Earlier I mentioned “Something Blue” and Buffy’s choice of “Wind Beneath My Wings” for their first dance . . . and it struck me later, that Buffy chose a song with the word “beneath” in its title to describe Spike’s position relative to her. We also see dance imagery again here for the two of them. And you know what the first two lines of this song are? “It must have been cold there in my shadow, Never the sun upon your face . . .”. Those Buffy writers just pack so much stuff into things that seem like such “throw away bits”.
MEASURING TAPE: I need it for the detailed anatomical chart of Spike I am making for the vampire physiology study. I am good at sketching and I want to do my part.
FAITH: I don’t think Buffy or Spike would be angry at this point to find out about Faith’s deception at the Bronze. I mean – I don’t think they are sorry they hooked up. They know that it needed to end, but I don’t think they are sorry it happened.
WILLIAM’S FAMILY: water gal, I think he was the youngest child . . . . I would guess him to have say . . . 3 or 4 older sisters and be the only boy – with a doting mother and remote, authoritarian type father. He definitely falls right into the “younger brother” role with Angelus, and he is great at being bossed around by women!
Edited By Spring Summers at 12/31/2002 8:53:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:12:16 GMT -5
Is Spike the long-haul guy for Buffy? Well . . . Buffy was never in love with Riley, so he is pretty easy to dismiss. Buffy has been intensely in love with both Angel and Spike, though in very different ways.
With Angel, she idealized him and would never allow herself to see any bad in him. (“Angel was GOOD!”)
With Spike, it was the opposite. She scorned him and would not allow herself to see any good in him. (“You’re a disgusting EVIL THING!”).
Let’s take a look at these two names: ANGEL. Something above you. Something that connects you to a higher spiritual realm. Something pure. SPIKE: Something below you. Something that pins you to the ground, to reality. Something phallic and sexual.
It is, of course, no coincidence that Angel & Buffy couldn’t have sex and Spike & Buffy’s couldn’t have anything but sex. Each guy played a particular and important role in her life, but neither is . . . the whole enchilada.
Buffy’s perceptions of both her loves are changing though. Surely, Spike’s ensoulment effort and Buffy’s own growth must be messing with her idealized view of Angel. And we know that Buffy is now starting to see good in Spike. This is a good thing for all involved.
But will Buffy & Angel, or Buffy & Spike, still be in love, still want each other, once they see each other fully, as true, complete adults? It’s almost like asking if random strangers will connect. So much of Buffy & Angel’s attraction, and Buffy & Spike’s attraction, had to do with who they were at the time, and what they saw in each other at the time, what they needed at the time.
Here is what I think: Buffy is destined to never marry. She will find her fulfillment outside of romantic relationships. She needed her ANGEL and she needed her SPIKE, and they will always be special to her. They’ve given her . . . . her BUFFY, if you know what I mean. Not that she won’t have other great loves in her life. But . . . I just don’t see any long haul guy for this girl. I mean, she’s Buffy. Buffy the Vampire Slayer. She saves the world. A lot.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:13:07 GMT -5
Spring, I enjoy your take on things. As to whether Spike is the long-haul guy for Buffy, well he has already proved it simply by continuing to be there. And I'm not necessarily referring to marriage or even romance. Just that he will be the long-term man in her life. And Spike IS a man now. Whether or not he had been one before, he is one now. Even Buffy notices it.
No, I don't expect Buffy to marry. She really shouldn't--or if she does, the slaying will have to go. Too risky for spouse and kiddies.
Buffy may or may not ever have been in love with Riley. I think she was even if Riley himself didn't. She was terribly hurt when he left. It took her quite a while to recover from it. And she was completely nonplussed when she finally did see him again. The relationships with Angel and Spike are really diametrical opposites. I agree with you that Buffy’s perceptions of both her loves are changing. It's gratifying to see her appreciation of Spike’s ensoulment and its accompanying efforts to do good. That, and her realization that Angel was no angel.
:But will Buffy & Angel, or Buffy & Spike, still be in love, still want each other, once they see each other fully, as true, complete adults? :
Yes, I think so. The form that the love will change as the people change and go on changing. Still, I think the focus, the attraction, the NEED will remain with Spike, romantic or otherwise because, again, he is, was, and will be THERE.
Helping Buffy the Vampire Slayer save the world. A lot.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:14:16 GMT -5
: ...I haven't had a chance to read anything yet, but I'll definately be taking a look.: Clean your glasses with Windex first. Helps prevent them from steaming over.
D
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:16:08 GMT -5
Spring wrote: "With Angel, she idealized him and would never allow herself to see any bad in him. (“Angel was GOOD!”)" "With Spike, it was the opposite. She scorned him and would not allow herself to see any good in him. (“You’re a disgusting EVIL THING!”)."
"Let’s take a look at these two names: ANGEL. Something above you. Something that connects you to a higher spiritual realm. Something pure. SPIKE: Something below you. Something that pins you to the ground, to reality. Something phallic and sexual."
"It is, of course, no coincidence that Angel & Buffy couldn’t have sex and Spike & Buffy’s couldn’t have anything but sex. Each guy played a particular and important role in her life, but neither is . . . the whole enchilada."
I'm impressed... DAMN good analysis. Spring, I think you should seriously consider submitting something like this to someplace like one of the following sites as well: * "Slayage" - The Online International Journal of Buffy Studies (http://www.slayage.tv/)
* "All Things Philosophical on BTVS and ATS" (http://www.atpobtvs.com/)
* "Bloody Awful Poets Society" (http://www.bloodyawfulpoet.com/index.html)
* "Tabula Rasa" (http://www.btvs-tabularasa.net/)
I don't know that Buffy will ever have a life of "ideal" domestic bliss given her Slayer-ness, etc., but I do believe the fact that Spike stuck it out all these years and never left her (for good, anyway) - either physically or in his heart - will stick with her as well. I think her father's and Angel's leaving her, the first "BIG" loves of her life, left her traumatized internally and maybe scarred emotionally for life. Given how much she loved both of them, I would expect not much less in "real life".
Parker was a throw-away (much as he treated her); Riley was never in her heart and gut. But I don't believe it's JUST my own wishful thinking that says before it's all said and done, Spike will be her ultimate paramour in some form or another.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:17:01 GMT -5
Miss Pamela, glad you liked the analysis. I wish I did have time to really organize my thoughts and write something up. Diane, for me, the story written for Buffy & Riley wasn’t what made it to the screen. All the candlelight, music, long gazes and sexy banter didn’t work. Buffy seemed to be trying to manufacture true passion with clichéd behavior and artificial accoutrements, because she wanted so badly to be a normal girl with a regular guy.
Buffy & Spike looked hotter doing it near the dumpster at the DoubleMeat Palace than Buffy & Riley did on satin sheets.
Buffy would cry if Willow left her, too. And sure, Riley shocked her with his reappearance. He must have made her heart jump with hope, like she was someone lost at sea in a horrible storm who suddenly thinks she sees a lighthouse in the distance. If she had been at a happy place in her life, he wouldn’t have made her heart jump at all.
Could Buffy & Spike be friends in the long term? The vibe I get is “no”. You know – they’ll fight, they’ll shag, they’ll hate each other till it makes them quiver, but they’ll never be friends? They have to be a couple, or they have to have some distance between them. With SMG leaving the series, I’m guessing we’ll see option #2.
I think Buffy has been very afraid Spike would leave her. And she isn’t wrong. He wouldn’t leave her the way her Dad, or Angel, or Giles did. But Spike - the way he is? If it was me, I’d worry every day he wasn’t going to be making it back to my bedroom except in an ashtray.
Of course, if it was me, he would never get out of my bedroom. But that is another story entirely.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:17:49 GMT -5
Miss Pamela's right, you do write an excellent analysis--even when I don't agree with them. Go, you! No, of course Buffy and Riley wouldn't work. Not for the long haul. And yes, I think a lot of it came from Buffy's desire for a normal life. But then, a lot of her feelings for the other men in her life came from needs and wants at the time that they met--or that she thought they met. That's not surprising. Most of us do the same. But I don't agree that Buffy's feelings were manufactured for the occasion.
First of all, as human as he was, Riley wasn't a "normal" guy. Maybe he wasn't a vampire, but he was the product of The Initiative, a hormone-enhanced, well-trained Universal Soldier. Maybe not a super-hero, but far more than "normal". (BTW, the dumpster scene actually turned me off. Buffy looked much too unhappy. However both "Smashed" in the tumbledown house and the frat house sex-fest managed to melt my contacts.)
It's not that Buffy wouldn't cry at the loss of any of her friends, and no, I don't think that Riley held the pride of place that Angel held (or that Spike holds) but I DO believe that she loved Riley. Perhaps we will agree that Buffy loved Riley--although she might not have been IN LOVE with him. No, I don't think it was a matter of Buffy's being unhappy in her life--although clearly she was--because Riley never represented happiness to her.
:Could Buffy & Spike be friends in the long term? :
I agree, probably not. Not in the usual sense, anyway. They'll fight, they’ll shag, they’ll hate each other till it makes them quiver, but they’ll never be friends! (Good quote, BTW) Living together they'd kill each other. The personalities just don't mesh. But they need each other. The relationship may not have a conventional definition in our world where man/woman means house, mortgage, kids, growing old (or getting divorced). That's not in the cards for our pair.
I agree that Buffy's afraid that Spike will leave. But he won't. He stayed with Dru for over 100 years--then SHE left HIM! Spike will stay with Buffy till she dies of old age, is killed or he's reduced to ashtray fodder.
But then again, we don't know how long a Slayer is capable of living. Since they've all been killed by un- or super-natural forces, the lifespan of a Slayer is unknown. But with their recuperative powers and resistance to disease, it's possible that a Slayer might be capable of living much longer than an ordinary person. Maybe that, too, is why Spike is so desperately needed.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 18, 2003 20:18:33 GMT -5
Measuring Tape: Remember, true scholarship demands close attention to the details. Faith: I think Buffy may have fulfilled every single one of Faith's taunts/promises to Spike in Season 6, and a few more besides. William's Family: I see William as either an only child with a widowed mother, or the younger son of a harsh, demanding and distant father who constantly let him know what a great disappointment he was. His older brother, who is everything he is not--strong, handsome, athletic, manly, (and a bully)--mocks and torments him mercilessly. His mother is timid and unassertive, but loves him and has always encouraged his romantic "artistic" side, much to the derision of her husband who is sure William will turn out to be a poofter
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