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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 2:52:09 GMT -5
Topic area devoted to Spikaholics, Spuffyites, Spike shippers of all types, plus any James Marsters information. All information on relationships, behavior, physical/mental/emotional/spiritual qualities of Spike or JM welcome. Straying off topic not a problem here. Share your knowledge, insights, observations, speculations, or other information on our favorite character in or out of any episode.
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 16:57:05 GMT -5
For those of you who have seen the latest James Bond movie, "Die Another Day" visualize JM as the partner of Halle Berry's character Jinx in a spinoff movie. Both of them are American spies travelling to hot spots around the world in a series of movies. They wouldn't be lovers - to start with - just partners that behave snarkily to each other but are always at each others' backs when they are in trouble or danger.
Just trying to find a place for JM to be seen in a heroic vehicle when BtVS folds. I'm not as interested in seeing JM as a character like William, although I guess I'd probably watch anyway.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 17:01:32 GMT -5
The writer of this excerpt has some kind of access to the series "Andromeda". It was interesting reading her choice for best episodes in Season 2 of "Andromeda" because she based her choice of episode on a guest star appearing in it. Guess who? "In the Second Season, much more shallow and I don't think it will be any surprise that "Into The Labyrinth" is my favourite. James Marsters, period. [Cheers] You know I'm shallow what can I say? It's a good kind of shallow. I mean I wish he'd been in the episode more, I thought he had tremendous chemistry with every single actor on that show. I could have watched him more with Beka, I could have watched him more with Tyr, anyone [Harper] Harper. [That would have been fun.] I hope they bring him back. I think he was one of the, absolutely one of the best guest stars they've had. [Discussion limitations to James time/availability etc]. Yeah, so those are my two favourites. One for deep character and one for hot bod. I'm a well rounded fan." Cited from the web site: www.ladymaigrey.com/vannuys5.html
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 17:02:42 GMT -5
Yes, I've also (in various places) said that I thought JM would make a fantastic James Bond, which - *bad pun alert* - is that what a bunch of us are feeling? ;-)
I'd watch him in just about any role myself right now, at least to give it a chance and see what he does with it. I think that as wildly popular as the Spike character is among folks like us, it's still not as mainstream as some and therefore I don't think unfair typecasting would hold hold back from future plum lead roles.
Plus, I can try and find out if there are back issues of that SFX Sept. 2002 mag available. When I bought my copy, I THINK there may have been only one left, but the store I got it from might be able to help me procure back issues or I might just try and contact the publishers directly.
Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 17:03:35 GMT -5
Miss Pamela said, "Plus, I can try and find out if there are back issues of that SFX Sept. 2002 mag available. When I bought my copy, I THINK there may have been only one left, but the store I got it from might be able to help me procure back issues or I might just try and contact the publishers directly."
Alexandra replies, "Tell me what I have to do. You want my firstborn?"
I tried to find the publisher on the web and found their site but there is no place to request old issues on their web site. If you have some way to make contact, I'd love to try for the back issue. Many thanks.
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 17:06:21 GMT -5
Don't think I'd care for JM in the Bond role. There isn't any depth to Bond. It's just shooting and exploding and stunt stuff. I want to see JM in a role that requires him to ACT. Something that he could *bad pun alert* get his teeth into.
Is there such a thing as a good pun?
Diane U
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 17:07:45 GMT -5
"I tried to find the publisher on the web and found their site but there is no place to request old issues on their web site. If you have some way to make contact, I'd love to try for the back issue. Many thanks."
Ditto for me. I would love to get my hands on a copy. The website was most unhelpful
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 17:08:22 GMT -5
As for JM playing a James Bond character, I don't see him playing the superficial playboy type either, although he could do anything. What I was thinking was a more meaty portrayal but in the spy line. If you saw "Die Another Day" and Halle Berry as Jinx, she gave her character much more depth than any bimbo Bond Girl. She was fun, very capable in a Buffy way, yet serious about her job. For Jinx it was definitely NOT all about James Bond.
I saw JM as the "junior" partner in their duo. She would be the leader but they would be a team. Have you ever watched "The Relic Hunter" on TV with Tia Carrere? She is head honcho (Anthropology professor) with a male assistant and they travel around the world chasing ancient artifacts.
Bottom line: if you give a role to James Marsters, he will make the role into what he wants anyway, and it will be better than what the writers had down on paper.
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 17:11:02 GMT -5
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 17:12:52 GMT -5
Here is a message I just posted on Episodes Board. Alexandra pointed out and I agree that it may interest Spike fans who may wish to discuss this at some length within the comfort and security of this Topic:
#15 Speaking of Repentance-Re: Re: Re: Re: Buffy Report from the Trenches: Twelve Til Seven Up: BtVS Season Seven So Far Posted on 1/3/2003 10:51:02 AM By deborah cohen
Diane said "I think Willow IS paying for her misdeeds. We may not be seeing all of it anymore than we see all of Spike's repentance, Also, although I agree her behavior last season was reprehensible, Angel and Spike are/were demons. They lived for evil. Replacing their souls (read: humanity) made them aware of what they had been doing.
Okay...Speaking of repentance for reprehensible behavior, I'm still waiting to see Buffy own up to her despicable behavior towards Spike last season. Yes, she confessed to Holdon that she'd treated him badly but she has never once aknowledged, let alone apologized to him for all the verbal and physical abuse, (need I remind anyone of the vicious beating in "Dead Things" which I consider to be at least as horrific as that AR?) and general contempt that dominated her treatment of him. Others have made this point much more articulately than I can in essays I have read on the Bloody Awful Poet Society and Tabula Rasa websites, so I'm not going to elaborate (much)here. And beyond Buffy's gratuitous meanness and violence were the Scoobies following her example. Unless they were availing themselves of his aid they treated him with utter contemt and derision, and never acknowledged (with the exception of Tara) any of the good (SOULESS) Spike had done, and the help he'd been to them. Souless Spike experienced love, remorse and guilt, without which he never would have decided to seek to restore his soul in the first place, and demonstrated that at least for this vampire a soul was not necessary in order to evolve beyond the cardboard cut-out evil demon that Buffy and the Scoobies were determined to see him as despite growing evidence to the contrary. Watching his efforts to do the *right thing* be continually ignored or dismissed and his attempts to win acceptance by Buffy and her friends be continually met with contempt and rejection just made me spitting mad. In fact, considering all he had to deal last season it's amazing to me that he didn't go mad or sucidal long before the restoration of his soul and his posession by TFE.
When you say (paraphrasing now) that Angel and Spike were demons living for evil and that replacing their souls/humanity made them aware of what they had been doing you are in one sentance negating all the complexity and humanity of Spike that has differentiated him from Angel since Spike's character was first introduced. Remember in Season Two, when Spike and Dru restored the Judge and the Judge found Spike and Dru "stank of humanity" but that Angel was "clean". To me, and I know many folks here will be mightily pissed off by me saying so, but from what I've seen, Angel's character is cardboard compared to Spike's. Souless Angel is devoid of all humanity and is only capable of good when ensouled. Yet Buffy (and the Scoobies) never held him at all responsible for the evil he'd committed before he was *cursed* with a soul or during the time he temporarily lost his soul after they slept together. What a double standard!
And please don't scold me for posting this here rather than on the Misc. Board; I am responding to a posting concerning the accountiblility of a main character, (with a soul, need I add), for reprehensible behavior. Just because it's Spike I'm talking about doesn't mean this isn't relevant to the current discussion.
My aplogies for the length of this post. I've only recently read the essays I alluded to above and they got me fired up over this injustice all afresh.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 17:14:59 GMT -5
Re, my previous posting, the Subject line was intended to read: Accountibility and Repentance for Buffy's/Scoobie's Treatment of Spike, but I must have accidently hit the Enter key prematurely.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 17:16:29 GMT -5
As Season 7 progresses, I'm twisting in the wind more and more about whether I want Spike and Buffy to become a couple again. At first I wanted them to be together as lovers again at the end of the series. Now I'm more interested in them being together as true lifelong friends, and soulmates in a more emotional, spiritual way. Physical relations can come along for the ride, but is less necessary than I had thought at the beginning of the season.
Before that can happen though, I need to see Buffy, and to a lesser extent the Scoobies, make full, thorough, heartfelt amends to Spike for their past treatment of him. I need them to give him recognition for his worth, his help, his sacrifices for them. They will probably rescue him from the FE which alone will say a lot to Spike. But that will not be enough.
The characters have all grown up during the past seven seasons, but Spike has made the longest, most arduous journey of them all. Perhaps Buffy and the Scoobies are not grown up enough themselves to appreciate the distance he has travelled in his redemption. Maybe we are going to see them grow up another level themselves when they finally recognize Spike's accomplishments. Having a teen at home shows me that they don't yet see all the complexities of life like adults do. It may not yet be clear to them how great a change Spike has made.
Joss Whedon has to take on the task of showing the Scoobies waking up to Spike's redemption by the end of this season (if the series is going to end.) Buffy is already starting to do this but I want more from her also (as Deborah said, much more acknowledgement of her excreble behavior toward Spike to his face, not to a strange vamp in a graveyard.) Leaving that out in favor of more fights with Ubervamp and the FE would be a great hole in the series story arc. I expect the Scoobies' and Buffy's total acceptance of Spike to be significantly addressed and will be extremely disappointed if it is neglected.
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 18:14:09 GMT -5
Beautifully said, Alexandra. But I wouldn't be so quick to attribute any rescue of Spike by the Scoobies as evidence of attrition for past wrongs. Once again, they need him and so it is in their best interests to rescue him. As Buffy said, (from memory-probably misquoting) "We need more muscle. That's why we have to rescue Spike." I haven't heard any of them voice any concern over his well being. In case anyone is interested, one of the best essays that explores ME's handling of Spike's character, his evolution and his relation to and treatment by the other main characters, read Barbara Cummings brilliant essay on the Bloody Awful Poet webpage: bloodyawfulpoet.com/essays.htmlClick on essays, then Barbara Cummings Letter to Mutant Enemy. deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 18:15:23 GMT -5
Okay all - please forgive me if I'm bringing up a previously addressed topic, but I'm relatively new to this site and have only read hundreds, not thousands of posts.
Much of what I've read alludes to the "fact" that Spike with a soul is "better" than Angel with a soul because Angel had his soul thrust upon him - whereas Spike asked to get his back in order to win the love and/or trust of Buffy. I have not read one single opinion other than "Spike asked for his soul back". Well, that simply is not how I remember it...
Again, forgive me if I misquote or paraphrase, but I recall at the end of last season, Spike left town on his motorcycle saying something to the effect of "When I come back, things will be different. Bitch is gonna pay." Does this sound to you like someone who wants to regain his soul in order to win the love of a woman? It doesn't to me. It sounds like someone who wants to get his chip out so he can kill Buffy without danger of physical agony.
When Spike is about to endure the trials, he says, "Make me what I was." I say that means "Take out this bloody chip", not "Give me back my soul." When he survives the trials, the Powers that Be (or whoever) says, "We will restore...(meaningful pause)...your soul!" Swelling soap opera music, appropriate screaming, cut to black, etc, etc, all of which commonly point to a twist - that is, Spike didn't specify what he REALLY meant, therefore the meaning of his request was interpreted for him. So he got a bit more (or less) than he bargained for.
Now, I find it hard to believe that no one else would have thought of this, but I find it harder to believe that no one has at least subsequently brought it up. I'd really like to know your thoughts, so any response would be appreciated (except of course, a response of "You idiot, we've been through this a year ago, get a life and try to keep up!"
Thanks all, K Kathy L.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 18:16:47 GMT -5
Dont' worry about anyone's reactions to your query regarding Spike's intentions, soul or chip. We love having more people contribute their views on our favorite, Spike. To answer your question, we are going with the soul because of: 1) Joss Whedon's actual reponse in interviews where he was asked the same question, "Was Spike going for chip removal or a soul?" Joss's answer was definitely, Spike was going for a soul. Joss specifically asked James Marsters to make Spike act like he was going for chip removal (and look maybe surprised at getting his soul) so we would all be unclear what would happen. Kind of a cliffhanger at the end of Season 6 to play with the audience. 2) The second episode of Season 7, "Beneath You", where Spike himself tells Buffy he went to get a soul for her, to get her what she deserved. He said that at the end of the episode in the church (transcript available at . For those reasons we abandoned the idea that he really went to get his chip removed. We are going with Joss's and the show's canon now. What do you think? Is there still wiggle room for thinking he didn't want a soul after all? I'd be interested in any of your views on Spike. Alexandra K.
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