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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 18:18:04 GMT -5
Well, I appreciate the response - since my post I have had some time to browse some of the old postings regarding the episode(s) in question - and I suppose If Joss Said So I Must Believe - but I must cry "No Fair!" (which I guess is common in the Jossverse). I'd feel better in my own head if Spike INTENDED to get the chip out, but then was given what he really wanted deep down inside - and I suppose I can accept the fact that his tone and language was contributing to a twist for the audience's benefit rather than his...but I don't like it! Oh well, I've rambled on enough for the day. It's snowing and icing and I'm going to make like a nose and boogie.
C'yall.
K
Edited By Kathy L. at 1/3/2003 4:05:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 18:19:42 GMT -5
The Scoobies all take their lead from Buffy. I doubt if one of them would individualy champion Spike unless Buffy endorses his worthiness as more than muscle. Except for Tara. She's the only one who I could see standing up and defending Spike as a worthy individual, and she's dead.Even if Xander's *only* issue was Spike sleeping with Anya, he's just not going to support Spike on general priciples. Anya's mifted because Buffy was going to kill her, and she's jealous that Spike isn't automatically getting the same treatment. Willow has almost been evil-Spike food at least twice, and not in a casual "I think I'll grab a snack" kind of way, (Fool for Love, and that hyterical Initiative induced impotence scene in the dorm). Dawn's mad at Spike for his attack on Buffy, and you know how teenagers can hold a grudge. Giles is automatically ultra-cautious when dealing with the un-dead, even if he did have to put Spike up for awhile and keep him supplied with Wheatabix and episodes of Passions. Yup. Buffy is going to have to do more than promote Spike as a soldier to have him fully initiated into the gang. And that may never happen because it would ruin the tension and spoil whatever grand sacrifice Joss has in mind for The End.
I know Joss probably has a tattoo on his butt that reads *No Happy Endings*, but I hope, for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is to distinguish even further how Spike is different from Angel, that he and Buffy will be allowed one moment of true happiness without immediate dire consequences.
Rusty Goode
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 18:21:45 GMT -5
Also remember Kathy, Spike's chip proved to be no deterrent to him physically harming Buffy since her resurrection. Since Buffy's return from the dead the chip hasn't activated where she is concerned.
Personally, being as pissed off as I was (and am) at Buffy and the Scoobies stubborn refusual to recognize and encourage Spike's growth and progress from an enthusiastically evil & proud killer, to the slow and painful development of his inate yet repressed humanity, I was totally hoping he'd gone to the demon to get the chip removed. Only then, with the return of Spike's free will, would he be able to discover for himself and prove to the others that he no longer had a desire to hurt people.
I almost said, "no longer had a desire to be evil" but I caught myself. The chip doesn't inhibit his desire to hurt people, it doesn't prevent him from indirectly engineering evil against people and it certaintly doesn't compel him to help people. It's effectiveness lies only in thwarting through pain, any attempt by him to directly harm a human; a limitation consistently overlooked by Buffy and the Scoobies, seeing as to how it would interfere with their comfy objectification of him as fundamentally and iredeemably evil.
It was my hope that without the chip Spike would discover, maybe to his own surprise, (in light of the anger that he obviously felt when he went on his African quest, that without the chip, he had grown his own moral compass, which replaced the chip in inhibiting him from following through on any inclination or impulse to commit evil.
This is where I thought we were going when Spike left for Africa at the end of last season: I thought he was pretty much in the same frame of mind as when he went to bite alley girl (when he discovered he could hurt Buffy and thought the chip no longer worked). That since he'd *failed* at being a man, since he obviously felt horribly guilty (without a soul!) about the AR and as far as he knew had forever burned his bridges with Buffy, being that there was no way (in his mind) she would ever forgive him, that he might as well just be the monster everyone took him for anyway. And that when he'd successfully won through the trials he'd be rewarded with a magical chipectomy, return to Sunnyvale hell-bent on murder and mayhem and probably with the intent of ultimately dying by Buffy's hand. Yaah, he was gonna show them *monster*...only to discover that when it came down to it, he couldn't go through with his evil intentions. And then the friggin' mist would finally fall from everybody's eyes and they would finally recognize his amazing growth and his true worth.
Souless Spike's painful progress from a self absorbed (except where Drusilla was concerned, happily evil, *dark warrior* has been long and hard, not at all steady, and completely engrossing to watch. It's often been two steps forward and one step back. But his personal struggle has been aided by no one. No one supported him, rooted for him, no one ever gave him any encouragement or the benefit of the doubt, not to mention any recognition or gratitude for his many efforts and sacrifices (thank you Alexandra) on their behalf. At best he's been reluctantly tolerated. He's pretty much struggled on alone and uphill against an overwhelming concensus of negative opinion on the part of Buffy and the Scoobies that has blinded them to what should have been the evidence of their own eyes and experiences. If ME had not intended to create such a sympathetic, underdog character worthy of redemption and reward (read Buffy's respect and love), then I'm sorry, they failed miserably.
But since Buffy repeatedly emphasized, literally beat into his head time and time again, that he was a worthless, evil thing because he didn't have one, of course it made perfect sense that a soul was just what Spike would seek. Ensouled once more, she could no longer use his lack of one as a convenient excuse for denying his feelings for her and rejecting his love.
Sheesh, I sure went off on a rant there. You all should see the stuff I deleted.
Sorry once again about the length. Hope I wasn't too incoherent. It's hard trying to quickly and secretly write this stuff at work.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 19:06:46 GMT -5
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 19:08:19 GMT -5
Rusty said "The Scoobies all take their lead from Buffy...." Thank you.
Where Spike is concerned Buffy has proved to be a moral coward. This was driven home for me when watching a recent rerun of "Normal Again". During the scene in the graveyard when Spike and Buffy are having a cordial conversation about the wedding that wasn't, she comes over all bluster and swagger at the approach of Xander and Willow. Tells them she'd found Spike and was just trying to figure out if he was holding any dangerous contreband (sp?). God, I just wanted to bitch slap that girl! That Spike has continued to be ostrasized and held in contempt as long as he has is very much down to her. She knows him better than anyone but rather than leading her friends by example through treating him as a friend worthy of respect she has continually played into the long-standing, prevailing negative opinion.
While I applaud ME for creating complex and flawed characters, and not exempting their main character from her own share of said flaws, I can't help thinking that they mught gone a little further then they'd intended. Could it really have been their intention to make people like me grow to hate her, as I did by last season's end? Could they have really meant that people like me would come to hate the heroine of the show? Maybe they realized they had gone too far and that's why they wrote in the AR, to restore Spike to a place of evil and Buffy to a place of sympathy? I know this idea has come up before and I don't mean to open up that can of worms again.
But back to my point (if I can remember it). Even this season, everytime Buffy defends helping Spike she always couches her argument in terms of their aid being necessary for a greater purpose beyond helping him just for his own sake. God forbid she should admit to being worried about him or caring about him.
I think Rusty hit it on the head in suggesting that maybe Joss/ME is holding back on letting Buffy and the others verbalize or demonstrate any personal concern or affection for Spike out of a desire to inflict a maximum amount of torture and angst on all the Spike fans prior to a big, heroic finish. Please, please, pretty please Joss, begging you here, show some small mercy and let Spike hear apologies and accolades all 'round and know at least some true happiness with his true love before the end. (And I can hear him saying "Byte Me!", to that.)
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 19:09:59 GMT -5
Deborah -- Don't apologize. We started this thread to have a place to voice, and discuss, just that kind of oppinion (along with some silliness, rude puns and double entendre mostly about nosferophysiology and hydraulic mechanisms). And it wasn't too long, especially if it's in paragraphs for easy reading.
I also have an issue over the relative value of a soul for Spike. It was so much more compelling and meaningful to have him struggle toward being a good man without one. Especially if the chip stopped working.
It seems the function of his soul at this point is to make him feel guilt and self-loathing. This is punishment for his past deeds, yes. And since one has to *suffer* to be redeemed in many religious philosophies that has a precendent, but is that what makes us better people? I've always had a problem with organized religion using the club of guilt and self-loathing to keep us sinners in line. Many would argue that that's not the *intent* of religion, but is sure is the practice because we humans must all be so stupid and tainted by original sin that we can't see any inherent value in doing the right thing unless there's a carrot or a sword hanging over our heads.
Others would ague that Spike is "doing it for Buffy", to be an acceptable man in her eyes, not as an end in itself. Therefore it can't possibly be the acceptable path to redemption.(plus there's sex involved and we all know that's bad, bad, bad!). But, redemption always has acceptance as a target whether it's "doing it for Jesus" or doing it for Buffy. If the result is the same the harm is a value judgement. If Spike had become a better man without a soul, what he was using to do it was just a lessor and more profane source of grace.
Rusty Goode
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 19:11:00 GMT -5
Rusty said, "But, redemption always has acceptance as a target whether it's "doing it for Jesus" or doing it for Buffy."
Rusty, I LOVE that line. Whatever difference does it make if Spike's action is becoming a better man? The essays on Courtly Love talk about that concept. The man starts by having a crush on or idolizing a woman. He can't have her for himself but tries to win her regard by good acts. After awhile, he starts to do the good acts for themselves. Medieval Courtly Love in a nutshell. And probably how most of us learned to behave in society - by trying to please our parents.
Spike is in the process of trading acceptance by Buffy for acceptance of himself by himself. He wants to do good acts for themselves more now. He watched out for Dawn after Buffy died at the end of Season 5 because he promised her. But she was dead. No reward there and we all know the old Spike would have had Dawn for lunch.
Did the chip make all the difference any more? He went after the girl in the alley in "Smashed" when he discovered he could hit Buffy painfree. But to me, his heart wasn't really in it anymore. He seemed to be trying to talk himself into his threatening behavior. He would have killed the girl without the chip, but we'll never see what he would have felt like afterward.
As an audience I think we have gone beyond wanting to see Spike eat people anymore. It is my opinion that we are ready to see Spike reborn as a "human" or at least as a vampire with a conscience. (Or maybe I'm a majority of one...) And I believe Spike with a soul could never be as vanilla as Angel with a soul. Spike has too much love of life.
Now I could have happily watched Holden Webster become Buffy's nemesis ("Conversations with Dead People"). Too bad he got staked. I really liked him.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 19:11:43 GMT -5
One of the things that characterize Spike in the early days after his arrival in Sunnydale is his verve, his joy. He enjoys what he's doing enormously. And he's an iconoclast--when he finds anything being revered, he can't wait to knock it down and see what happens, as when he shoves "the Annoying One" into the cage and hauls it up into the light, thereby destroying the last remainder of the Master's authority and, as it turns out, becoming (with Dru) the boss vamp of Sunnydale...for a while, until he's hurt and Angelus outsts him during his recuperation.
It seems to me one of the unfortunate side effects of Spike's evolution is that he's lost nearly all of that joy. He's nearly as miserable and broody as Angel now. Or, worse--nearly as joyess as Buffy has become since her resurrection.
I attribute Buffy's gloom to her sense of responsibility as Dawn's "parent" and as the Slayer. Not much fun, it seems, being the Slayer. That's established in Season One, when Buffy misses out on nearly all the "fun" stuff of high school in learning and practicing her duties as a Slayer, and although she resents this restriction she nearly always accepts it. Those times she refuses or ducks it almost always result in near-disaster to someone close to her, or to herself. So now she's grim Responsibility Gal who takes life very seriously and supports her likewise troubled and/or miserable friends (conspicuously excepting Spike, as previously noted by many) to the best of her ability.
I would make a distinction between happiness and joy. One can be quite joyous, full of appreciation for life, while enduring any variety of hard times and difficulties. For instance, Spike's very real concern for Dru and his determination to find a way to restore her strength (Season Two-ish, I think) didn't seem to put a serious crimp in his enjoyment for the various battles he entered into.
I wonder if it's the weight of the responsibilities Buffy has taken on--an overwhelming load; "the Weight of the World"--that produces her increasing joylessness, and Spike's comparative lack of such responsibilities that kept him free-wheeling and snarky for so long. Now that he has a soul, will he take on more responsbilities...not merely refraining from doing Evil, not merely trying to do Good, but taking on the protection and support of others? And if he does, will it come to weigh him down the way it does Buffy? And would that be a good thing?
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:10:20 GMT -5
If Buffy is ever able to accept Spike as a true friend, which I think he has always wanted to be, she may be able to share her responsibilities with him. Trouble shared is trouble halved. None of the Scoobies can match her the way she needs to be matched before she will accept help. Spike is nearly her equal in all ways (excepting a suntan). He recognizes that fact about her and has tried to tell her but she has to come to it herself I guess. And now they both have other problems to get through first.
Joy is one reason I think Spike is a better match for Buffy than Angel was. Spike is full of the joy of life (with a bit of a soulful setback). Buffy needs that to counteract her tendency to be morose and too strict both with herself and Dawn and the Scoobies and other elements of her life. She would probably rein in Spike's occasional excessive exuberances. They would provide balance for each other.
I don't really think much can weigh Spike down for long, including his soul. He is very much a survivor and he would find a way to work with his new 'appendage'. And he'd turn it into an advantage - something special, something complementary (and complimentary) to himself and to Buffy if she would let him.
I suppose we can all see him as a responsible watcher for Dawn if the series went that way. But he would not be at all like Giles, except maybe on the surface. There would always be that sheer lust for life burning underneath. (Yes, I know he's actually dead but you know what I mean.)
I don't think the FE is going to get much out of Spike for that reason and also because of Buffy believing in him. I would like to have seen him decide to fight the FE even without Buffy's endorsement. But it was high time we heard something positive out of her for Spike so I see why that issue couldn't be explored. Too little time in the remainder of the season to get to all the psychological details.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:11:31 GMT -5
I can't see how anyone could hate Buffy. Yes she treated Spike wrong during season six, but that is not a reason to hate her. It amazes me that no one wants to give her a break. She did die, wake up in a grave and claw her way out all because Willow wanted to play god. How do you apologize for something like that? Then she is expected to go back to being Buffy who fights the good fight and saves everyone, or at least tries. I think she has had a hard time of, yet no one seems to be interested in that aspect of the character/show. Buffy never had a father, and she lost her mother. Did she really get a chance to grieve the death of her mother before she had to save Dawn and the world yet again, I don't think so. It seems Buffy is supposed to take a beating and keep going, a little wind up toy waddling toward the next BB. God forbid if she should screw up along the way.
Buffy is not being given the sympathy she deserves because some are waiting for her to apologize to Spike because of ill treatment. I would love to see them come to terms with their feelings, but I will not hate Buffy because she hasn't shown Spike courtesy. That I won't do.
Torah J
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:13:59 GMT -5
How about impatience and annoyance? After all, all Spike (mostly) did to her was try to kill her fifth quintillion times. The least she could do is have good manners.
Nan
Nan Dibble
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:15:40 GMT -5
Disapproval and sarcasm. Oh dear.
I loved the story line of season six which explored Buffy's overwhelming challenges in adjusting to the struggle of living again, to life as the Slayer and as a fit guardian for Dawn, after the peace of heaven. I was not one of those who felt it was too dark, or too slow. And I loved the relationship she and Spike had at the beginning of the season, where Buffy confided in him as she could with no one else, and they seemed to share a genuine quiet tenderness of mutual understanding between them.
But then came their dysfunctional, secret affair and Buffy let loose with the verbal and physical abuse again, and often with a vengence. Buffy has serious issues to work through, I appreciate that, but does that excuse her apalling behavior towards Spike, and her adamant refusual to recognize any good him. I'm sorry, we are not talking about a lack of courtesy here. We are talking gratuitous meanness and violence.
And as far as all the many times Spike tried to kill Buffy in the past, well, hello, that just illustrates how far he's come! Yes, they were once mortal enemies and it was quite natural for Buffy to hate him then and to distrust him for a long time. But over time Spike's character has grown and evolved and I would argue he has earned the trust of Buffy and the Scoobies many times over.
Remember at the end of Intervention when Buffy maskerades as the Buffybot to learn whether Spike revealed the truth about Dawn under Gloria's torture? She tells Spike that what he did for her and Dawn was real and that she wouldn't forget. But Buffy sure wasn't remembering any of Spikes help and sacrifices when she was hurtling abuse at him during Season 6, and dismissing him as as "evil, souless thing". And when Xander tells Dawn in the graveyard when fleeing with Jonathan and Andrew from Dark Willow that the only good thing Spike ever did was leave town, he sure wasn't crediting him with a single service or sacrifice....
Damn, I'm totally late for my volunteer job right now.
If you haven't already, I plead with you to read Barb Cummings' essay "Season Six In Review: A Letter To Mutant Enemy" which you will find under Essays on the Bloody Awful Poet webpage. She covers all the main characters, but it is her analysis of the handling of Spike and Buffy that is most relevant to this discussion. She makes many points that I agree with but cannot do justice to in my own awkward ramblings. I would be very interested in your feedback on this essay, Nan and Torah.
Maybe "hate" was too strong a word, but I won't apologize for using a word that felt appropriate for what I was feeling at the time. I care about Buffy and I want her to win through her internal demons, the ones whe can't slay with pointy sticks. But it's because I care about her that I got so frustrated with her last season. I think we were supposed to see her as the victim and she certainly was in many ways. But my sympathy for her was eventually shadowed by my anger at her bullying and contempt of Spike and my sympathy for his position.
I gotta get to "work". I'm going to be an hour late because I just had to stop into the office to check this Board then I just had to respond and now I'm all late. No time to edit or further clarify.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:18:45 GMT -5
Well, it seems the link to misc. was down. I have always enjoyed reading the mature responses to the topics on this board. Hopefully that won't change.. don't want to see personal attacks that I have witnessed on others
Pam H
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:19:35 GMT -5
To various extents, Buffy and the Scoobies have forgiven themselves, each other, Angel and Anya a lot more easily than they have Spike. But Spike is the lucky one here.
When he is finally loved and forgiven (and I believe he will be), it will be the real thing. It won’t be based on self-imposed blindness of any kind. Anything easily handed to you can be just as easily taken away. It’s not as solid, it’s not as valuable, it’s not as real. It doesn’t satisfy, not really. Whatever Spike receives in the way of love and forgiveness will be hardfought and hardwon – it will be earned.
Buffy and Spike have abused each other something awful from the day they met. They’ve been doing the love/hate dance for so very very long. We could make lists of good and awful things they have done to each other.
I don’t think Spike wants to hear apologies from Buffy. If Buffy ever started to offer any apologies, I'm sure he would shush her in a second. I don’t want to see apologies, I want to see more of what I am already seeing – their behavior toward one another improving.
Yes, Spike will be like those Ohio State Buckeyes. Belittled, no one’s favorite, no one believed. But look who’s National Champs? And it is so much sweeter when you defy the odds, when you prove yourself beyond anyone’s predictions (can you tell I spent the first 21 years of my life in Central Ohio?).
Spike -IF he isn't dust by the end of the Season - will be the luckiest one of the bunch in terms of how he is positioned with respect to everyone else.
Edited By Spring Summers at 1/4/2003 11:50:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:21:05 GMT -5
We all have discussed that Buffy treated Spike very poorly in Season 6. My question is - why? She was hurting from being ripped out of heaven. She had lost her mother and had to grow up and take responsibility for Dawn. Giles left her to shoulder her burdens alone. She was probably angry with the Scoobies for bringing her back when she had found peace.
The only person she told of her unhappiness was Spike. When she sang of being torn from heaven to the Scoobies in "Once More with Feeling", she followed Spike outside and SHE initiated a kiss. She always initiated the kissing, and she initiated everything that went well past kissing. Spike, of course, was not unwilling but SHE always pushed the envelope in their relationship. The one earlier time when he slowly started to kiss her outside the Bronze in "Fool for Love", she rebuffed him in no uncertain terms, telling him her was 'beneath her'.
Now if she is the one initiating a physical relationship with Spike, why is she also being so absolutely nasty to him? I realize she is not internally pleased with her continual quest for sex with Spike. But she transferred her unhappiness so violently to Spike (especially in "Dead Things".)
She was on a self-destructive path engineered by herself knowingly; she seemed pretty aware that she had little desire to go on living. But I am having trouble making the jump to its being Spike's fault. I am having trouble believing that she didn't know it wasn't Spike's fault for accepting what she basically thrust upon him.
When he said, "Go ahead, put it on me...you always hurt the one you love," in "Dead Things" it seemed as though he was more aware of her needs than she was (he has pretty consistently known her inner feelings even as far back as "Lover's Walk" when he knew how Buffy and Angel related more truthfully than they were admitting to themselves). Was she angry with him for being TOO understanding when all she wanted was to use him? Did she feel she could use him with impunity because he didn't have a soul? Was she lying to herself about the depth of her feelings for Spike and really not wanting to go there?
The whole 'Doctor' business in "As You Were" when Riley returned was probably a real let down for Buffy when she realized that Spike had not achieved sainthood from sleeping with her. He was still his amoral self. (Although I have a lot of questions about just why he had those eggs...) Buffy was all mixed up, in emotional pain, feeling pressure on all sides, but it still seems strange that she so completely scapegoated Spike when she knew he was in love with her.
I guess she could do whatever she wanted to someone who had always tried to kill her pre-chip. But wait, as the official slayer she was always supposed to kill him too. Both killers, both trying to kill. Buffy confided in Spike, kissed him, slept with him, then blamed him for her unhappiness. What did Spike do wrong besides accepting Buffy's advances and occasionally trying to get her to really acknowledge him as on the balcony at the Bronze? As he himself said, he was just her 'sodding sex slave'.
Alexandra K.
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