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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:23:54 GMT -5
Was anybody else jerked out of their comfortable view of Spike as a plain and simple killer and tossed into the horrible reality of his heinous past acts when we heard what he said to Buffy in the basement in "Never Leave Me"?
I admit that I didn't have the imagination to think of anything beyond what we saw him and other vampires doing to the victims each week. Bite or snap necks. At worst, Angelus left Jenny's body in Giles' bed. I guess I was very naive.
Why did Joss suddenly decide to draw such a graphic history for Spike? Did we need to see him as even more evil? Did we really need to know EXACTLY why he is having so much trouble forgiving himself? I thought the body count alone was reason enough for him to be remorseful. Now I am seeing that Spike really does have a monumental job of learning to live with a soul. No wonder he wanted to cut it out.
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:30:38 GMT -5
Here is my take on Spike & Buffy in Season 6:
As far as Spike’s behavior toward Buffy – that “I’m not really complaining here” attitude – oh boy. Spike’s main goal seems to be securing Buffy for himself however he can, rather than trying to do what is best for either one of them. He is willing let her beat him and abuse him, he is willing to try to isolate her, he is even willing to rape her when he thinks it might do the trick.
Buffy is not wrong that Spike is an evil soulless thing and that she can’t truly trust him. But since she knows this from the start, she is very wrong for giving in to her feelings for him
In “Fool for Love”, Buffy seems to be experiencing a very strong attraction to Spike by the time he makes a move to kiss her in the alley. But she knows it is wrong and she has the strength to fight her impulses. She forcefully rejects him. By the time we get to Season 6, she is desperate and unhappy and even more attracted. She gives in.
She is extremely conflicted. She is supposed to love her friends, but she hates them for bringing her back. She is supposed to love Dawn, but she hates the burden Dawn represents. She is supposed to value human life, but instead she longs for death. She is supposed to hate Spike, but instead she falls in love with him.
She can’t admit any of this to herself.
All this makes her one angry, angry, angry Slayer. Angry at the Scoobies, but unable to bring herself to express that anger. Angry at Giles, but he is gone. Angry at having to take responsibility for Dawn, but she can’t take it out on Dawn. And probably still angry at Mom for dying and leaving her to this fate.
Spike is the perfect candidate for releasing her anger. She can treat him like crap and beat his face to a pulp and have the excuse that he is an evil soulless thing. AND he is willing to take it.
Buffy was very much like the husband who is angry at his boss but doesn’t allow himself to face that, because then he’d have to do something about it. So he comes home and takes it all out on the wife and kids.
Fault finding is an important part of that dynamic, of course. If you’re trying to stay in denial about who/what you are really angry at, you have to come up with reasons why your anger toward the wife and kids is appropriate.
I don’t think that, intellectually, Buffy blames Spike for her problems or unhappiness. When she breaks up with him, she acknowledges her responsibility to be strong and stop using him. But the fact that she understands her responsibility intellectually doesn’t mean that she has accepted it emotionally.
She breaks up with Spike, but she seems to miss him terribly and her feelings for him don’t stop on command. Surprise! Breaking up with him doesn’t relieve her of the conflict she feels inside for loving him. In fact, it doesn’t relieve her of any of her anger or conflict at all. It is supposed to fix things, but it doesn’t.
She is in great emotional need of a punching bag, and there he is, ready, willing and able.
As far as Spike’s behavior toward Buffy – that “I’m not really complaining here” attitude – oh boy. Spike’s main goal seems to be securing Buffy for himself however he can, rather than trying to do what is best for either one of them. He is willing let her beat him and abuse him, he is willing to try to isolate her, he is even willing to rape her when he thinks it might do the trick.
Buffy is not wrong that Spike is an evil soulless thing and that she can’t truly trust him. But since she knows this from the start, she is very wrong for giving in to her feelings for him
In “Fool for Love”, Buffy seems to be experiencing a very strong attraction to Spike by the time he makes a move to kiss her in the alley. But she knows it is wrong and she has the strength to fight her impulses. She forcefully rejects him. By the time we get to Season 6, she is desperate and unhappy and even more attracted. She gives in.
She is extremely conflicted. She is supposed to love her friends, but she hates them for bringing her back. She is supposed to love Dawn, but she hates the burden Dawn represents. She is supposed to value human life, but instead she longs for death. She is supposed to hate Spike, but instead she falls in love with him.
She can’t admit any of this to herself.
All this makes her one angry, angry, angry Slayer. Angry at the Scoobies, but unable to bring herself to express that anger. Angry at Giles, but he is gone. Angry at having to take responsibility for Dawn, but she can’t take it out on Dawn. And probably still angry at Mom for dying and leaving her to this fate.
Spike is the perfect candidate for releasing her anger. She can treat him like crap and beat his face to a pulp and have the excuse that he is an evil soulless thing. AND he is willing to take it.
Buffy was very much like the husband who is angry at his boss but doesn’t allow himself to face that, because then he’d have to do something about it. So he comes home and takes it all out on the wife and kids.
Fault finding is an important part of that dynamic, of course. If you’re trying to stay in denial about who/what you are really angry at, you have to come up with reasons why your anger toward the wife and kids is appropriate.
I don’t think that, intellectually, Buffy blames Spike for her problems or unhappiness. When she breaks up with him, she acknowledges her responsibility to be strong and stop using him. But the fact that she understands her responsibility intellectually doesn’t mean that she has accepted it emotionally.
She breaks up with Spike, but she seems to miss him terribly and her feelings for him don’t stop on command. Surprise! Breaking up with him doesn’t relieve her of the conflict she feels inside for loving him. In fact, it doesn’t relieve her of any of her anger or conflict at all. It is supposed to fix things, but it doesn’t.
She is in great emotional need of a punching bag, and there he is, ready, willing and able.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:31:44 GMT -5
I also found Spike’s words about taking just enough blood from girls, etc, to be very disturbing. It laid it all out there, right in the viewer’s face.
We already know soulless Spike was violent and vicious. There is tons of evidence. Just as one example, he threatened to rape Willow in Lovers Walk – true, he backed down quickly, but rape didn’t seem like a particularly new or disturbing idea to him.
In the past, Spike’s vicious nature is presented in a muted way. We are distracted by comedy and by charisma. And we are given the clear idea that some tiny piece of Spike’s heart really isn’t into the violence. Given that he is a vampire, this so compelling it is easy to forget that MOST of his heart is into it.
When Spike is confessing to Buffy in the basement, soulless Spike’s vicious nature is presented raw and unadorned. Nothing distracts us.from the ugly facts.
It was an awful but very effective presentation. I do think it is about allowing the viewers to understand the enormity of several things:
- Spike’s accomplishment in finding his way to possible redemption.
-The task ahead for Spike, in earning that redemption and forgiving himself
-What Buffy faced in Season 6 as she tried to justify her affair with Spike to herself. She tried to tell herself differently, but what Spike tells her in “As You Were” is true: “You know what I am. You’ve always known. You come to me all the same.” Yes, yes, and yes. And oh the horror of it.
-What it means that Buffy now believes in Spike.
I also think it touches on what it means for Buffy to face some Angel issues, and to try to understand what it all means about her own nature.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:32:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the redirect on how to find the board. I don't always post due to two adorable distractions, but I am a faithful lurker. I tried a longer post earlier, but when I hit post it disappeared, and now one of the distractions is fussing, so I don't have time to redo it. Oh well, maybe it will show up. If not, I'll try to re-post tomorrow. Thanks again!
Maggie M
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:34:05 GMT -5
Many thanks from me too. You are so clever to find a way around the snafu. I was starting to have serious withdrawal pangs. I notice that no one from Scoopme has offered an explanation yet. I just want to know that they realize something is wrong.
Kinda nice that our Spike topic rates a "Hot topic" link. I imagine it is generated from the number of posts, but still - nice.
How many parts do you all think we will need to stay near the top of the Misc. board through the end of the season? (That question was primarily rhetorical.)
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:35:07 GMT -5
Through the entire series, Spike has been good to some women, but not so good to others. Good=Joyce, Dawn, Buffy (at times), Drusilla (until he went bonkers over Buffy), and Cecily (I'm guessing here.)
Not so good=Harmony, any human female he could snag for lunch (and I don't mean a date), Willow, and sometimes Buffy.
Neutral=Tara, and Anya (including their table polishing scene).
One can't even say he was always good to his lovers because he was Harmony's lover when he staked her for being terminally stupid and emptyheaded. She was just very lucky she was wearing the Gem of Amara(sp?) when Spike tried to dust her. Mercedes McNab does a very nice job of her character, Harmony, by the way.
So I guess he was only considerate of the females he was in love with. But not good to all women just because of their gender.
The relationship that throws me is his friendship with Joyce. Can a demon vampire choose to LIKE a human female (or male) as a friend? Leaving off the 'adoptive mother' angle, why did Spike take a shine to Joyce without wanting to kill her? I thought vampires had only one compulsion - to feed. That's the gist I got from the way Holden Webster was describing his new vampire feelings to Buffy. Feed and fight til you're dusted. I'm beginning to think Spike is an exceptional case in the vampire world. But after seeing William the Bloody before he was turned, what makes Spike so extraordinary? He wasn't extraordinary as a human. Were his human feelings for a woman carried over into his unlife as a vampire?
Totally unrelated: I read the essay by Barb Cummings on the Bloody Awful Poets Society web site as someone (sorry, can't remember who - wave if you know you're the one) recommended. That essay is just as good as she said it was. Excellent analysis of Spike and Buffy's relationship. Think I'll have a copy bronzed. And Barb Cummings answered my questions about why Buffy was so mean to Spike, along with others who replied on this topic, thank you.
Also totally unrelated: Wow, did you see the Fortyniners/New York Giants football game? Outstanding football viewing. My three favorite teams are the Niners, the Giants and the Bucs. Guess who the Niners have to play next week? Yep, the Bucs. (Well okay, it's not about Spike, but James Marsters is a football fan. Does that count?)
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:36:02 GMT -5
Rusty says: “But, redemption always has acceptance as a target whether it's "doing it for Jesus" or doing it for Buffy. If the result is the same the harm is a value judgement. If Spike had become a better man without a soul, what he was using to do it was just a lessor and more profane source of grace.”
What an interesting discussion! My two cents:
I would argue that Spike could not have become a better man without his soul though, whether he was doing it for Buffy, Jesus, or the mail man.
His chip provided some internal cues, a sort of internal moral compass, but it was very limited. All it told him was “don’t try to hurt someone physically”.
His love for Buffy and Dawn provided external cues about right and wrong. Instead of ignoring external cues, he started paying attention to them – he was motivated by a desire to please Buffy and protect Dawn.
But he was so very, very clueless. My favorite example is when he tells Olaf the Troll where he might find babies to eat. He turns to Xander for ideas and confirmation, genuinely, naively believing Xander might want to add his two cents. And later, after he has attacked Buffy, we see he is just as upset and confused about why he DIDN”T do it, as he is about why he DID do it. He can’t identify the feeling of guilt squirming around in his head, try as he might. He cannot understand it anymore than he could understand why Buffy was so upset about Katrina.
His extended time with the chip and Buffy-love, and the unique way he held on to his humanity, did allow a sort of tiny, flickering internal flame to spark into life though. I like to think of it as William managing to get a toe-hold when the environment allowed. It was tiny, but it was very important, because it was what allowed Spike to make the decision to go after his soul.
I don’t think the tiny flame could ever have blazed in that soulless environnment. But now Spike is all aflame, it burns and burns and burns.
Spring Summers
Edited By Spring Summers at 1/6/2003 10:18:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:37:19 GMT -5
Hold on to your chairs folks. If you think what we heard Spike say to Buffy in the basement was bad take a look at what must be an earlier draft of the script here: studiesinwords.de/shooting/neverleaveme.htmlNot only is Spike's account of his past evil ways decidedly more graphic but Buffy acknowledges to Spike that he'd *changed* even before he got his soul back. Maybe ME thought Spike's more graphic version of his past would be too much for us but I wish they had left it in. After all, the magnitude of his many past evil deeds only serves to even further highlight just how very far he has come. And remember this (and I'm quoting myself from another post I made over in Episodes this weekend when I couldn't reach Miscellaneous): "After all, at least in the BuffyVerse, evil is all you can expect from a Souless, Evil, Thing. Evil is fundamental to a vampire's nature. But once a vampire stops being evil you don't hold it against him, right? Unless, of course, you're NOT Angel." And to that last sentance I should add Anya as well. I've never heard her being held accountable for any atrocities she committed while a vengence demon. As for Buffy's deleted line(s)concerning Spike's pre-ensouled progress, maybe ME wanted to withhold any acknowledgement by Buffy to Spike because they know that her failure to do so thus far drives many of us bonkers. And they LIKE that. Or, maybe they just made these cuts in the interests of time deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:38:03 GMT -5
Alexandra said: "The relationship that throws me is his friendship with Joyce. Can a demon vampire choose to LIKE a human female (or male) as a friend? Leaving off the 'adoptive mother' angle, why did Spike take a shine to Joyce without wanting to kill her? "
In the JM commentary at the end of the Season Two DVD he does briefly discuss Spike's friendship with Joyce. He says something along the lines of: Maybe sometimes Spike just needs a mom. To give him chocolate milk....
So I don't think you can dismiss the mothering angle.
As to Barb Cummings' brilliant analysis of Season 6 over on the Bloody Awful Poet Society webpage, that was my recommendation. Picture me waving. I am SO GLAD someone else has read it and agrees that it's every bit as good as I said it is. I wish everyone here would take the time to read it.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:38:44 GMT -5
deborah: I had read Barb C’s article previously, and it is a very good one – I second your recommendation.
I agree with just about all she says, particularly about Buffy’s behavior. But I do think she under-represents how evil Spike continued to be. Even before we heard his basement confession to Buffy this season, we knew he had done awful things. And he never exhibited scrap of remorse for any of them, ever, PRE-SOUL.
Why? Because – and think about this – he didn’t feel the slightest twinge of guilt for any of his too-numerous-to-count, pre-chip, murderous, vicious actions.
Barb is soooo right when she says (paraphrasing) that Marsters’ charismatic, sympathetic performance overwhelmed content.
Not that I would want it any other way – all the confusing feelings I get, watching (e.g) the way Marsters chooses to portray Spike telling the coal-bin story to Dawn, is what makes the character so rich, so wonderful, so fascinating. I mean, I’m listening to Spike tell how he murdered an entire family. He plainly feels not a bit of remorse, he has no regrets. And still? He’s adorable. Except he’s not. Except he is. But no. He can’t be, can he?
Yes, Buffy was a bitch to Spike. But I did sort of feel sorry for Buffy at times. I mean, would I be able to resist? And if I didn't, wouldn’t I hate myself in the morning (I mean, after my legs started working again)?
AND IN CONCLUSION: Our Spikey? I do believe he needed to get that soul
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:39:34 GMT -5
I said I couldn't understand how Spike could just LIKE Joyce without wanting to kill her. I do understand he received from her something emotional he needed, but I guess I was wondering how he could CHOOSE not to kill her, when he was with her for quite awhile and she was unattended by Buffy or anyone who could save Joyce from him. If he had so much control over his feeding tendencies, why did he have no control over his actions in general (which is what we keep hearing Buffy say re his pre-chip days)?
All I can deduce is that he DID have control over his actions, but usually chose to kill. Perhaps there was no "moral compass" attached to his actions and his actions were driven purely by his selfish interests of the moment. In that case, Joyce was in severe danger each time she talked with Spike (pre-chip). And Angel was right in warning Joyce about Spike in "Lover's Walk". I think it was very lucky that Buffy heard Spike's voice on the phone in the background when she called her mom. Joyce might not have lasted til the 5th season.
P.S. Sorry for the 'moral compass' quote w/o giving credit. The board wouldn't let me back into the other posts. Scoopme worked well for a few moments, then kablooey again.
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:40:47 GMT -5
I am a total wuss when it comes to suspense and find that knowing what is in an episode before I see it helps my blood pressure from zooming off the charts. So for those of you like me, or who just like spoilers, and who may not have discovered the web site that gives a full summary of each new Buffy episode BEFORE it airs on TV, I give you Leoff's Wildfeed: www.leoffonline.com/wildfeed/archives/eps-buffy/b7-11.htmlThis URL goes to the summary for the episode coming up next Tuesday, January 7, 2003, called "Showtime". Alexandra is a bad doggie. Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:41:54 GMT -5
I am a total wuss when it comes to suspense and find that knowing what is in an episode before I see it helps my blood pressure from zooming off the charts. So for those of you like me, or who just like spoilers, and who may not have discovered the web site that gives a full summary of each new Buffy episode BEFORE it airs on TV, I give you Leoff's Wildfeed: www.leoffonline.com/wildfeed/archives/eps-buffy/b7-11.htmlThis URL goes to the summary for the episode coming up next Tuesday, January 7, 2003, called "Showtime". Alexandra is a bad doggie. Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:43:01 GMT -5
Are you really trying to torture me? I've swore off spoilers (along with sugar)since this may be the last season and its been very hard to resist. Maybe just one little peek...or maybe just one litte Hershey kiss...decisions, decisions. Quick! What was that SFX cover website again so I can distract myself?
Maggie M
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Post by Dalton on Jun 19, 2003 21:43:44 GMT -5
Having given up grammar, I now give up what was intended as, and sounded to me like, mild irony, if it can be somehow interpreted as personal attack. I guess I just don't understand.
Missed you folk while the board was down. Looking forward to Tuesday. I've enjoyed all the essays at the Bloody Awful Poet Soceity page. Tabula Rasa and Slayage also have good ones--thoughtful and discursive.
More later, when I'm not at work.
Nan
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