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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 0:42:30 GMT -5
Torah: The goodness was in the acknowledgment of that love and emotional connection, in the fact that Spike & Buffy did reach out and provide each other some comfort from their pain and loneliness.
The goodness was in the fact that despite all the denial and nastiness that followed, the connection wasn’t wholly impersonal and devoid of anything but lust.
There was a tiny seed of goodness amidst so much that was so very, very wrong. The biggest proof of this is in the fact that, this season, we are starting to see, against all odds, the fruits of that tiny seed – i.e, salvation for both parties.
Edited By Spring Summers at 1/7/2003 11:31:00 AM.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 0:43:36 GMT -5
Thanks for replying. I wanted to hear your take on it because I never saw any love between Buffy and Spike when they consumated the relationship. I did witness attraction, longing, lust and a desire to feel. Which I related to on all levels, but I didn't witness love. I need to rewatch that epi again, because I thought it was a bit violent. What interested me was Spike's face when she finally gave in to her feelings. That look of disbelief that this was finally happening. I enjoyed his raw emotion more than anything, but I also felt sorry for him because I didn't see the same emotion from Buffy. I felt she showed him more love if you will when she pretended to be the Buffybot and kissed him. That scene between the two of them was sweet, real and powerful on both parts. What came later was distrubing and sad.
I also don't see any salvation for Buffy, Spike yes, but Buffy no.
Torah J
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 12:14:08 GMT -5
I think some of the problem with Buffy showing emotion in general is that mentally SMG is *outa here*. She's bored with Buffy, she wants to be a movie star, a mom, whatever. She wants to move on. Maybe she's also miffed at all the attention JM gets. At any rate it's too bad she doesn't seem motivated to put much emotional effort into this last season. I want to be cheering Yea! Go Buffy! Instead, where there should be a crystal performance, there's only the thunk of glass. So I watch JM.
Rusty Goode
And the man can scream. If there was an award for best male screaming he'd win, hands down.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 12:16:38 GMT -5
I wonder how they get along in RL
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 12:17:17 GMT -5
I wonder how they get along in RL. I'd hate to think SMG resents JM, and that she lets it interfere with her performance.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 12:18:11 GMT -5
Torah: Buffy & Spike’s encounter in “Smashed” was a bit violent? You are being kind. It was more than a bit violent. It was . . . wildly, horribly violent.
My whole take on Buffy’s feelings for Spike in Season 6 – in “Smashed” and beyond – was that she was madly in love. She can’t seem to stop thinking about Spike, she can’t keep her hands off him, he’s the first person she turns to, he’s her main confidant, she’s terribly jealous when she seems him with someone else, etc.
But also she hated herself for loving Spike, and she was in enormous denial about it, and I agree that she didn’t show him much (if any) love. I did see that eyeball lock during sex as being about love and making a real connection. You don’t do this if all you’re after is a hunkier version of a vibrator, if all you care about (as Anya once said to Xander) is having lots of orgasms.
But basically, if you’re Spike, it doesn’t make much difference whether Buffy is withholding love because she doesn’t love you, or because she’s in denial. You end up with nothing, and you should have the self-respect to tell her to get lost. But of course, Spike does not have that self-respect.
Also – don’t get me wrong. I did NOT see the love between Spike & Buffy as healthy, mature, adult love. It was closer to obsession, for both parties. Spike expressed his, and Buffy bottled hers up (which made her crazy and mean).
SALVATION FOR BUFFY: Buffy is and (I believe will be) learning plenty from her encounter with Spike. She’ll be leaving behind the last vestiges of her childhood for adulthood and an adult’s view of the world and the people in it. And she, and everyone she cares about, will be better off for it.
I believe, before it is all over, both Buffy and Spike will be tremendously better off for having known the other. It isn’t just about Buffy believing in and forgiving Spike, but Buffy believing in and forgiving herself. Having helped save a wretch like Spike is going to help Buffy do this, as will the former wretch’s love and support (and I am not talking about romantic/sexual love).
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 12:19:13 GMT -5
Madly in love or just obsessed with the person who is helping her to feel?
I agree about the two of them making a connection, but not loving one another regardless of the eye connection. We know that it wasn't about sex and orgasms really, but power. Spike had the power to make Buffy feel and she had the power because he loved her.
Buffy has learned so far from her encounter with Spike that she used him and I think that's about it. I haven't seen any growth on her part because of her relationship with Spike.
I truly believe that what Buffy needs now is some faith. She has lost her faith along the way. She is numb and bitter. Of course helping someone you ultimately help yourself, but Buffy needs more than what Spike can give her with his love. That doesn't take away from his love, but anothers love means nothing if you don't have love of self. She needs to find herself again. I believe Buffy has moved into adulthood and found it harsh, now she needs to find the balance in being an adult.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 12:20:01 GMT -5
Spring said "...But basically, if you’re Spike, it doesn’t make much difference whether Buffy is withholding love because she doesn’t love you, or because she’s in denial. You end up with nothing, and you should have the self-respect to tell her to get lost. But of course, Spike does not have that self-respect..."
Well, Spike did tell her to get lost at least once. In "Gone", he calls her on only being there with him because she wasn't actually there. Then he tells her to go - something about if he can't have all of her he doesn't want her at all- (but then she *unfairly* distracts him for a while). Still, he does still ultimately throw her out. Remember, she rather petulantly walks down the street (still invisible) kicking a stone and mumbeling to herself about how he threw her out of his crypt.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 12:21:30 GMT -5
Yes, good point, deborah. Spike was not totally without self-respect - but mostly he was.
But when push came to shove, he had no real resolve.
He always took Buffy back, would ultimately take whatever scraps she was handing out - he even told her he was OK with her using him ("I'm really not complaining here.").
The guy was conflicted - part of him wasn't into being her lap dog. He hated it and he would complain. But he was so desperate to keep her, his love for her was so obsessive, that's all he would do is complain. There was no resolve behind his complaints, no firm, enduring action.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 12:22:25 GMT -5
Hey spring- this thread has brought up some fascinating points- i will be thinking about them for some time to come-
One question- isn't it possible that the only way any one could reach Buffy at this point would be to have developed an obsessional love/hate relationship that would not allow the possibility of abandonment?
I mean she has been 'betrayed" in one way or another by all of the major figures in her life, they have either physically left her or tried to kill her or insisted upon an emotional committment that she is unable to reciprocate.
I am in no way suggesting that she handled her treatment of Spike maturely or fairly but who else would have allowed her to expose the depths of her shame,sexuality, need and so forth without making her aware of their "humanity"?
She was able to do all those things to him b/c on some level she did not perceive him as worthy of better treatment and in so doig was forced to confront that not only was he worthy of better treatment (leaving aside his own capacity for evil) but that so is she...
Like the Aimee Mann song goes"its all about drugs, its all about shame"
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 18:56:16 GMT -5
Yup. Agreed. Absolutely.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 18:58:06 GMT -5
Spring Summers Some great points there ellie. I do believe also that part of what is at play here is that "the only way any one could reach Buffy at this point would be to have developed an obsessional love/hate relationship that would not allow the possibility of abandonment."
Good one. Torah mentioned that Buffy was obsessed with Spike because he could make her feel, but that begs the question . . . why could she only "feel" when she was with Spike? What was it about Spike? I think the answer is in part with what you are saying ellie - she felt secure with Spike (the other parts would be having the incredible hots for him, having a long standing strong emotional connection, though I guess it's all interrelated).
I also really like your point, ellie, about how "she was able to do all those things to him b/c on some level she did not perceive him as worthy of better treatment and in so doing was forced to confront that not only was he worthy of better treatment (leaving aside his own capacity for evil) but that so is she..." Yes. This puts it better than I did when I mentioned how Buffy's connection to Spike is part of her own salvation.
Spring Summers
Edited By Spring Summers at 1/7/2003 5:48:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:15:56 GMT -5
Can you all tell I am at home with a sick son and nothing better to do than mess with this board? Thanks for your indulgence.
Torah: I do agree Buffy will need more than just Spike to get where she needs to be. Everybody, always, ultimately needs more than the love of one person, and ultimately needs to love themselves and find faith in themselves.
On the issue of "love" - well, I see it this way:
Was Buffy madly in love with Angel? Yes. Was it healthy, mature, adult love? No, it was basically teenage idealization and infatuation. Is that a form of love? Yes, but not one you want for the long haul, not enough by itself.
Was Buffy madly in love with Spike? Yes. Was it healthy, mature, adult love? No, it was basically wild attraction and obsession. Is that a form of love? Yes, but not one you want for the long haul, not enough by itself.
I mentioned before that Buffy needed to experience both her loves, they both gave, are giving her, important things. They both represent different things that are importants parts of what a person wants from love - but not the whole enchilada.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:17:19 GMT -5
Spring-
Can I just say that I have been blown away by a lot of your perceptive comments on this and the other Threads about the nature of the various relationships on Buffy and how they partake of the healthy and unhealthy aspects of the character's lives.
Oh- and it doesn't just take a small ill one at home to check this board obsessively(although that is a mighty incentive; been there done that too). I think the levl of cogent discussion has a lot to do with the interest we all sustain.
Deborah-
I have been lisening to Nick Cave and Aimee Mann today and they mine some of the same areas that Buffy has been exploring- emotional entanglementss,abandonment,wild reveries of stimulant induced bliss and it has definitely enhanced my appreciation of your analyses and I look forward tnight's show.
I sometimes think some of Buffy's responses are guided by SMG's level of interest in the particular show- sometimes she just seems to walk thru and it is hard to tell if it is an emotional reading of the character or just the actress's desire to call it quits already.
ellie jason
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:18:29 GMT -5
Cecily devastated William by telling him he was beneath her. Buffy first devastated and then enraged Spike by telling him the same thing. Now, thru the guilt and self-loathing his soul allows him to feel, he himself has accepted that he is beneath her. He no longer believes that she will/should love him. But the fact that she *believes* that he can win his struggle to be a better *man* is enough to keep him hanging on while the FE tries to torture him into submission.
And why does the FE need Spike anyway now that the seal has opened? Because he's the oldest and therefore most powerful resident vamp in Sunnydale? Because he's a way to Buffy? Because of his betrayal of his own kind for the Slayer? Because his soul makes him a challenge? Because he has a body and the FE doesn't? (What about the Uber-Vamp, he's corporeal?)Because he's the best looking with his shirt off? Why?
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