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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:19:19 GMT -5
I've been struggling to figure out why The First doesn't kill Spike also. Other than the obvious torture as a plot device and if he did kill Spike he would be gone and that would be very bad. I just need to accept The First's explanation that he wants to turn him over to his side, I guess out of sheer stubborness and not wanting to lose. Based on its other manifestations, The First seems to be a very poor loser, not used to being rejected. Either way I am looking forward to seeing Spike reunited with the rest of the gang. Even though he does look great covered in sexy wounds.
On a completely unrelated topic, it also bothered me that The First blew up the Watcher's Council and doesn't put the Summers' house out of its misery the same way. But then again it would be a very short season if they did that.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:20:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the reminder. I wonder if my husband would object if I tried to save the image and make it our wallpaper so I could see it every morning with my coffee. Something tells me he would, but I just really like that picture. Its so simple and perfect without a lot of noisy background.
Maggie M
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:41:15 GMT -5
Rusty-
I have been wondering about that whole "beneath you" thing- perhaps it is also a warning about those things w/i oneself that can trip one up. i.e Willow's unwary use of the drk power, Buffy's unerring instinct for choosing utter depression prior to unquenchable resolve when faced with implacable fate, Spike's ability to utterly subsume himself in his current love regardless of the consequences....
All of these have the potential for great eviland destruction if not channeled properly...
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:43:14 GMT -5
To: Gia, Rusty, Ellie, Spring, Deborah, Torah and Alexandra... I agree with you all. Yes, yes and yes... You are right. Now must dash, off to my telly I go. Must not miss a minute of the show. (Hey, I'm a Bloody Awful Poet too! M.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:44:25 GMT -5
Spring said in #73, "I mentioned before that Buffy needed to experience both her loves, they both gave, are giving her, important things. They both represent different things that are importants parts of what a person wants from love - but not the whole enchilada."
Now, those relationships are in the past. So, do you think there is any hope for Spike and Buffy in the present? He has stuck by her, even after she dumped him as a lover. He told her he was still in love with her in "Never Leave Me." He got a soul for her. If her abandonment issues drive her, that should help her let herself love him. I can't believe she had no real feelings for him after watching several seasons of her taunting him, saying she was going to kill him, and then never doing it.
Spike is learning to live with his past, and I think, will learn to love himself even with his horrific past deeds haunting him. He is, as I mentioned before, a survivor. I don't see anything keeping him in total angst for the rest of his existence (and being immortal, that's a long, long time.)
If the series ends, Spike will get redemption somehow (I hope it is not by death). If he doesn't die, and if Buffy doesn't die, (and Buffy grows up) do you see them being good for each other? Or do you see them going off into the sunset separately? Whether or not they start up as lovers again, I kinda think they are joined at the metaphorical hip. To me, their relationship has been a tangible entity almost from the beginning - something like the little boy pulling the little girl's pigtail at first. And like Xander and Cordy yelling, "I hate you" to each other in the basement. Even Drusilla knew Spike was a goner early on.
In the future I can see Spike accepting Buffy with another lover a lot faster than I can see Buffy wanting Spike to find someone else. She says she doesn't want him, but can you see her being happy and at peace seeing Spike give his infinite capacity for loving to another female? I think Spike now loves Buffy enough to want her to be happy even if it is with somone else. I see Buffy, though, as still denying her own feelings consciously while underneath, never wanting Spike to leave her.
Seeing the entire relationship to date, I am looking at the potential ending from the standpoint of the writers. Do you think they have the "wrinklies" to kill one or the other off permanently, leaving the viewing audience with one of those sad endings that most of us really hate in movies (a la Old Yeller - I'm still traumatized by that betrayal)? I'm hoping not. The rose-colored glasses are firmly on.
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:45:29 GMT -5
Torah mentioned that Buffy was obsessed with Spike because he could make her feel, but that begs the question . . . why could she only "feel" when she was with Spike? What was it about Spike?
I think that she could only feel with Spike because she hadn't dealt with her feelings of how Willow betrayed her. I think that she would have turned to Willow, but she couldn't because Willow was the one who was responsible for her feeling the way she did. She couldn't go to Xander, he helped Willow resurrect her, Giles was no where to be found. Spike wanted to be there for her and she seized on that opportunity. I don't think she could only feel with Spike, she can feel with the others, but she just hasn't been able to express those feelings, but they are there. I'm waiting for Joss to light the flame to the powder keg...
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:46:47 GMT -5
I guess this is where we agree to disagree, because I don't think that Buffy was madly in love with Spike when they first had sex in Smashed. I don't think when a person is obsessed with someone that they are in love. That is not my definition of obsession.
As far as her love for Angel, I don't and I've said this before think that her love was an infatuation or that she idealized him. I think her love for Angel was very real. Simply because she was a teenager doesn't mean she wasn't experiencing real love. I never said she didn't have feelings for Spike, I said that she wasn't madly in love with him when she first had sex with him.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:48:23 GMT -5
Alexandra - I agree with your view that Spike loves Buffy for real now - enough even to let her go, enough to be truly selfless about it.
And I think Buffy will be getting to the same place with Spike.
And I agree they've had a really powerful emotional connection almost from the minute they laid eyes on one another. I stand by my "madly in love" characterization. They were, they are. It can only get better now that Spike has a soul and Buffy is feeling alive again, has done some growing, etc. Before, the whole enchilada was impossible for them - now it's not.
But I just finished watching tonight's episode. Good God. Those two are doomed. One way or another, they are doomed. I mean - I just get that feeling in the pit of my stomach that we are being set up for really painful fall. I can't say exactly what I mean by that, but it's going to hurt.
How many of them are we going to lose, and will it be as simple as death, or will we see some things that are even worse? Will Spike or Anya or Willow have to give themselves up forever to darkness, and have to do so willingly? Will Buffy & Xander have to make themselves stand by and allow one of them go to such a fate? How could they bear it?
They are going to defeat this thing, but it is going to cost them so very very dearly. I was filled with a painful feeling of dread and sadness from the minute I saw that Ubervamp until the end of the episode.
Alexandra, got an extra pair of those rose-colored glasses? I am feeling in need.
I wanted to add, on the comments about SMG not doing the job -I can't see it. She's had a very complex role to play, and she's played it just right to my eyes.
Spring Summers
Edited By Spring Summers at 1/8/2003.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:49:25 GMT -5
Torah - Oh definitely, yes. Buffy's love for Angel was real. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't. I didn't say it wasn't real, or it wasn't love. I said she was madly in love with Angel.
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:50:22 GMT -5
That Buffy's alive, when she shouldn't be, per the big eyeball(s) oracle. And the solution is? ? Sounds dire, folks. Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:51:53 GMT -5
Hey again Spring- i hope the little one is feeling better?
I definitely have to agree that SMG was up to snuff tonight- no complaints about her acting in any scene. I jsut feel that at the beginning of the season she was a little distant-
I will have to watch the episodes again- maybe she was just remaining true to the character arc and I mis-read the acting for flubbing the dramatics?
Anyway- I do think the finale is going to be dire- kudos to the poster that suggested a possible sacrifice would be for one or more to go willingly to the dark side in order to save the others. I will check later to see who that poster was as it is a brilliant painful idea- worthy of Mutant Enemy
ellie jason
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:56:15 GMT -5
OK- Spring-
That kudos about the idea of a willing sacrifice to the dark side was to you-
Is it me or does this group of SIT's seem very callow? I do not dislike any of the young actresses but they are not a particularly engaging bunch except for maybe Kennedy and sometimes Rona. I do not want to make my mind up too quicly, not everyone can be as engaging as Holden Webster or Cassie.
Please though, I really did not like either of little Dawn's new friends from the beginning episode. The new teenager from the Help episode seemed like a good recruit to the new friend tema but I wonder if there will be any time to develop Dawn's social life- what with the Apocalypse and all...
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:57:10 GMT -5
Real was my word Spring. I realize you didn't use that particular word.
I'm going to bed now, goodnight all...
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:58:52 GMT -5
The oracle said the problem was the slayer. That things were such that it gave the FE a toehold into the world to make trouble.
Here's my theory. Buffy has died twice now. She already came back once at the beginning of Season 2, well before she was brought back again at the beginning of Season 6. Why didn't the FE show up then?
What if it is not Buffy at all that the oracle is referring to? What if it is Faith instead? I theorize that it was Faith's killing humans (once by accident, and at least once on purpose) that put things out of balance. A slayer is not given the right by the powers that be to kill humans. She is given extra strength and fast healing to *help* humans. Faith unbalanced the cosmic energy given to the slayer over to the side of evil. The balance must be tilted back to neutral for the FE to be forced back into the ether (or wherever it exists) again.
We, of course, do not know if any other slayers have gone bad in history. No one ever mentioned any history of evil slayers in any episodes. Giles never talked about Faith's evil turn as anything familiar that he had ever read in his research. so I am making the leap that it is Faith who has unbalanced the detente between good and evil.
Can you tell that I really want both Buffy and Spike to make it?
Wow, the look on Spike's face when he realized it was Buffy, not the FE, in the cave. AND THE LOOK ON BUFFY'S FACE when she released him. Finally, I'm seeing what I want to see between them. Not lovers, not just fellow fighters against evil, but for that moment I saw Buffy's apology to Spike, Spike's forgiveness of Buffy, and their completely mutual bonding as forever friends. In that scene I saw what I have wanted to see in SMG's face and attitude toward Spike. And it was well worth waiting for. Hallelujah, now that was good acting, SMG!
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Post by Dalton on Jun 20, 2003 19:59:45 GMT -5
I want to also include that what passed between Buffy and Spike at the end was Buffy forgiving Spike for the attempted rape. I think they have opened up a new path for themselves, and all the old baggage was left behind.
Can't wait til the next episode.
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