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Post by Sue on Apr 3, 2006 16:16:41 GMT -5
Rae orginally posted this on the MISC board. Now, of course you can just IM her with your thoughts, but I've moved it here and created a thread because I am curious to see the opinions of everyone---our regulars and those who post primarily on the VM threads and our guests. So, if you are so inclined chime in here and Rae can collect our thoughts and send them back to Rob. [ Or, she can give him the URL for the entire thread! ] During the VM Press Conference mentioned in my post above, Rob spoke of an idea he and the writers have been considering for season three. He asked us to post about it and let him know what the Mars' community online thinks about it. I didn't post about it separately at first but I now have a way to get that feedback to him. The idea... To try and make the show more accessible to new fans throughout the season, they are thinking of having three smaller mysteries instead of one/two season-long mystery arcs. So, each mystery would last approximately about seven to eight episodes a piece. Obviously that would be adjusted for the actual mysteries and the pacing they want for them but that's the overall idea. That'll let them keep the mysteries more condensed and faster paced than trying to stretch them out over 22 episodes but it should also make it less daunting for new viewers to catch up on what's going on in the show instead of feeling like they can't catch up because they've missed episodes. Now it's your turn... Tell me what you think and I'll send our feedback off to Rob.
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Post by Sue on Apr 3, 2006 16:21:47 GMT -5
Rae orginally posted this on the MISC board. Now, of course you can just IM her with your thoughts, but I've moved it here and created a thread because I am curious to see the opinions of everyone---our regulars and those who post primarily on the VM threads and our guests. So, if you are so inclined chime in here and Rae can collect our thoughts and send them back to Rob. [ Or, she can give him the URL for the entire thread! ] During the VM Press Conference mentioned in my post above, Rob spoke of an idea he and the writers have been considering for season three. He asked us to post about it and let him know what the Mars' community online thinks about it. I didn't post about it separately at first but I now have a way to get that feedback to him. The idea... To try and make the show more accessible to new fans throughout the season, they are thinking of having three smaller mysteries instead of one/two season-long mystery arcs. So, each mystery would last approximately about seven to eight episodes a piece. Obviously that would be adjusted for the actual mysteries and the pacing they want for them but that's the overall idea. That'll let them keep the mysteries more condensed and faster paced than trying to stretch them out over 22 episodes but it should also make it less daunting for new viewers to catch up on what's going on in the show instead of feeling like they can't catch up because they've missed episodes. Now it's your turn... Tell me what you think and I'll send our feedback off to Rob. Initial reaction: I like it. In fact, I'd been thinking something like this. Got to run for now, but more later.
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Post by Sharky on Apr 3, 2006 16:38:43 GMT -5
They might try to set up mysteries that culminate with each sweeps period and the end of the season. That would seem to make sense to this non-TV professional.
I'm for anything that keeps the show on the schedule without compromising the characters and the writing.
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Post by Michelle on Apr 3, 2006 19:15:34 GMT -5
They might try to set up mysteries that culminate with each sweeps period and the end of the season. That would seem to make sense to this non-TV professional. I'm for anything that keeps the show on the scheule without compromising the characters and the writing. I agree with you, Sharky, but I still would like them to keep the format of one big mystery that is extended through the season. Maybe nstead of having a MOTW, they could have mysteries that don't need to be wrapped up by the end of one episode. Some of the episodic mysteries lately have seemed VERY rushed, so stretching them out to 3 - 4 episodes might make more sense. I still like the season-long mystery, but I think it needs to be something that doesn't make Veronica look callous if she neglects it for a ep or two (which has been a criticism of her behavior regarding the bus crash). At the same time, I would like the season-long mystery to be something that Veronica feels personally invested in solving, as she did with the murder of Lilly. I think the writers attempted that this year with the bus crash, but it just doesn't have the same resonance. For example, Veronica seems to think the crash was an attempt to murder her. But if that were true, why haven't there been any other attempts on her life? The problem is, I don't know what mystery would or could meet both requirements: important to Veronica, while at the same time easy for her to set aside for a time.
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Post by Sue on Apr 3, 2006 21:47:32 GMT -5
They might try to set up mysteries that culminate with each sweeps period and the end of the season. That would seem to make sense to this non-TV professional. I'm for anything that keeps the show on the scheule without compromising the characters and the writing. I agree with you, Sharky, but I still would like them to keep the format of one big mystery that is extended through the season. Maybe nstead of having a MOTW, they could have mysteries that don't need to be wrapped up by the end of one episode. Some of the episodic mysteries lately have seemed VERY rushed, so stretching them out to 3 - 4 episodes might make more sense. I still like the season-long mystery, but I think it needs to be something that doesn't make Veronica look callous if she neglects it for a ep or two (which has been a criticism of her behavior regarding the bus crash). At the same time, I would like the season-long mystery to be something that Veronica feels personally invested in solving, as she did with the murder of Lilly. I think the writers attempted that this year with the bus crash, but it just doesn't have the same resonance. For example, Veronica seems to think the crash was an attempt to murder her. But if that were true, why haven't there been any other attempts on her life? The problem is, I don't know what mystery would or could meet both requirements: important to Veronica, while at the same time easy for her to set aside for a time. Taking Buffy and Angel as the template: Each ep had a MOTW (Monster); each season had a seaon arc; but most seasons also usually had a sub-seasonal arc or mini-big bad. Season 2 was Angelus in the end, but he didn't even appear until half way thru the season. The whole first half of the season was all Spike/Drusilla. Season 3 had the mayor, but really the earlier eps had very little about him---all of that was revealed just a bit at a time. The one sub-arc was all about Faith and another on-going plot was Angel coming back and his relationship to Buffy. And individual episodes were sometimes Xander-centric; Willow and Oz-centric; Giles-centric; Season 4 was about Spike and about the Initiative. Season 5 only gave the barest of hints as to where Dawn came from until episode 5. You had your ongoing Spike's in love with Buffy subplot; ongoing Riley/Buffy; ongoing Willow/Tara; ongoing Xander/Anya. It wasn't all about Buffy all the time. All of the supporting characters had episodes built around them but also took small and/or medium parts of other eps developing their characters; relationships; stories. And the big bads were introduced a tiny bit at a time. Season six had the nerds sort of co-equal with the Buffy attempts to readjust to life plot. Then the final few eps were all about Willow. I'm not quite as conversant with Angel but I know season one had a Doyle arc and a Wesley arc. Season 2 had the Pylea arc, but it didn't take all season; Season 3 had Angel and pregnant Darla; the the post birth storyline with Wesley, Holtz and Connor. Season 4 was totally divided into the Beast part and the Jasmine part. ========== So, I think it would be great to have a Mystery of the Week for some episodes, but have cases that Veronica or Keith or V and K together take on and start investigating but actually solving the case might take 2-6 episodes alongside smaller mysteries for several eps as evidence is developed and then take center stage for an ep or two as the case is resolved. Meanwhile there could be extraneous info which doesn't appear to necessarily relate to either the MOTW or mini-arcs which only, over a period of time, turns out to be leading to something larger. Personally, I don't feel like I need to have a specific crime happen in the first episode which then needs to be solved in 22 episodes. For example, we are assuming that the bus crash somehow is tied into the real estate plot. But what if there hadn't been any bus crash. What if we just had weekly episodes and information about land deals and issues kept coming up. And then only half way or even 3/4ths of the way thru the season all of the little pieces of info start to fall into place together and we discover that there is a big conspiracy regarding real estate taking place and it's important because.....whatever. Would people yell because "all the clues weren't present in the first ep"? Not me. But, yes, it would need to be something Veronica had a personal interest or stake in. I don't much like her mother but something could come out over time about her. Veronica would be invested in anything involving her father. (The whole Lilly murder thing was almost as much about helping her father's reputation (even tho he did turn out to be wrong about Jake) as finding Lilly's murdered.) I think the supporting cast maybe needs to be developed more. Some seriously Wallace centric eps and ongoing Wallace character and relationship development. Ditto with Weevil. Ditto maybe with Mac; Keith and Alicia Fennel or other romantic interest. How about Lamb? Whatever happened to his cryptic comments about parental abuse? He is still fairly one dimensional. And Veronica would be invested in anything affecting anyone she cares about. [I'd love to see more done with the Kane corporation and creepy security guy for 3-4 eps.] ====== That was the long answer. Short answer: I like drabbles; I like short stories; I like novellas; I like novels. Sometimes novels have chapters; subplots; even several books strung together to make an entire story. So I say yes to series long arcs; season long arcs; partial season arcs; episodes long arcs; double or triple episode long arcs; and possibly even "gimmick" episodes once or twice a season: Veronica has an appendicitis and spends the entire ep in a hospital bed while Wallace and Logan solve the mystery. Or maybe she still solves it with the power of her brain but her "minions" do all the leg work for her. Or she solves 4 mini-mysteries during one ep. Or she takes on 3 different clients in one ep and they all turn out to be inter-twined. Or she has a dream and the entire ep takes place in the fifties. Or once a season eps are done "in the style of" Nero Wolfe or Agatha Christie. What I DON'T think is that Rob should let his story-telling get boxed into any one set formula that he can't alter or adapt to tell the stories he wishes to tell. [That and----develop the supporting cast and their characters/personalities more, independently of any plot point.]
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Post by Rob on Apr 4, 2006 3:57:00 GMT -5
My first instinct would be to reccommend changing nothing. I don't see that adjustments need to be made; holding an audience won't be difficult once there's decent network promotion and a respectable lead-in i.e. "Gilmore Girls." In other words, the show ain't broke. UPN is.
On the other hand, if Mr. Thomas has decided on his own that he wishes to make the change from a storytelling standpoint, then that's fine. I'll watch either way.
I don't have the slightest difficulty with year-long arcs, personally; if anything, it allows more time for episodes that focus on character, rather than plot details.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 4, 2006 20:34:48 GMT -5
I almost didn't post here, 'cuz I was being all "I shouldn't be telling him what to do, he needs to do whatever feels right to him". But then, I was all like, "well, it is his idea and he said he wanted people to chime in, so . . . "
So. Long story short, I think I'm in the same boat with Sue and others who think this idea is good, but also think it could work with a season-long story as well. Smaller, 3-4 episode mini-arcs can make it easier for a new viewer to "click" with a show and hook them on the full season story.
Heck, the season-long arc doesn't even have to be a mystery (although I see no reason why it can't be one).
Hmmmmm. All of which means I don't really have a fab new thought to add here, just lots more eetah.
And a strong desire to see Rob do whatever he feels is the best creative choice.
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Post by Sue on Apr 4, 2006 21:28:25 GMT -5
[Obviously not serious suggestions, but I was having fun playing with this]:
1. Hire James Marsters.
2. Hire Alexis Denisoff
3. Have guest visits from Xander, Oz, etc.
4. Do a "crossover" --> next time they need to involve FBI agents how about hiring a forensic pathologist and her FBI buddy?
5. Have VM mystery storylines overlap storylines on CSI, Without a Trace, Law and Order.....etc.
6. UFOs and aliens
7. Werewolves and Vampire cults
8. Set a mystery at a fan convention.
Okay, just kidding.
Mostly I agree with what Rob and Lola said: Trust your instincts, be creative, don't kowtow to the fans---we're not the people in Hollywood writing scripts!
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Post by raenstorm on Apr 5, 2006 7:53:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback everyone! I'll gather and send off to Rob today-ish.
I think Rob is truly just curious what others think of the idea more than he is trying to cater to our every desire. I get the impression that while he wants to encourage and get new viewers he appreciates the fans that he already has and that's why he wanted to know what we think.
While I think having one or two big mysteries that last all season are good because they build up suspension for the last half of the season, I also like the idea of multiple arcs that could build up and arc through sweeps months and offer us uninterrupted runs of a mystery. I think it would work well to let people come into a show at any point and still feel like they can solve the mystery (which is part of the allure of the show for some).
Plus, it may really help on the pacing front and elminate all the different threads they have to juggle. I think some of the stories end up suffering for at different parts of the season because there are so many things they have to fit into the story to help make it last all 22 episodes.
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Post by William the Bloody on Apr 5, 2006 15:54:00 GMT -5
They might try to set up mysteries that culminate with each sweeps period and the end of the season. That would seem to make sense to this non-TV professional. I'm for anything that keeps the show on the scheule without compromising the characters and the writing. I agree with you, Sharky, but I still would like them to keep the format of one big mystery that is extended through the season. Maybe nstead of having a MOTW, they could have mysteries that don't need to be wrapped up by the end of one episode. Some of the episodic mysteries lately have seemed VERY rushed, so stretching them out to 3 - 4 episodes might make more sense. I still like the season-long mystery, but I think it needs to be something that doesn't make Veronica look callous if she neglects it for a ep or two (which has been a criticism of her behavior regarding the bus crash). At the same time, I would like the season-long mystery to be something that Veronica feels personally invested in solving, as she did with the murder of Lilly. I think the writers attempted that this year with the bus crash, but it just doesn't have the same resonance. For example, Veronica seems to think the crash was an attempt to murder her. But if that were true, why haven't there been any other attempts on her life? The problem is, I don't know what mystery would or could meet both requirements: important to Veronica, while at the same time easy for her to set aside for a time. The problem with this idea is that forh e more casual viewers its worse than having hte MOTW with a season long big myster arc! Personally, I would love it, but I think it's exactly opposite of what they are shooting for, which is casual viewer watching. Vlad
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Post by Michelle on Apr 6, 2006 9:31:13 GMT -5
I agree with you, Sharky, but I still would like them to keep the format of one big mystery that is extended through the season. Maybe instead of having a MOTW, they could have mysteries that don't need to be wrapped up by the end of one episode. Some of the episodic mysteries lately have seemed VERY rushed, so stretching them out to 3 - 4 episodes might make more sense. I still like the season-long mystery, but I think it needs to be something that doesn't make Veronica look callous if she neglects it for a ep or two (which has been a criticism of her behavior regarding the bus crash). At the same time, I would like the season-long mystery to be something that Veronica feels personally invested in solving, as she did with the murder of Lilly. I think the writers attempted that this year with the bus crash, but it just doesn't have the same resonance. For example, Veronica seems to think the crash was an attempt to murder her. But if that were true, why haven't there been any other attempts on her life? The problem is, I don't know what mystery would or could meet both requirements: important to Veronica, while at the same time easy for her to set aside for a time. The problem with this idea is that forh e more casual viewers its worse than having hte MOTW with a season long big myster arc! Personally, I would love it, but I think it's exactly opposite of what they are shooting for, which is casual viewer watching. Vlad Hmmm, I see your point, Vlad. Well, I guess that's why I don't work in the television industry! I was looking at this from the viewpoint of someone who is already a fan of the show, and not as a *potential* viewer. I'll admit without (too much) shame what got me really hooked on both Buffy and VM: sex. I saw Buffy and Spike destroy a house with their passion and...whoa. From that, I grew to appreciate the show for all its many other virtues, of course. And with VM, I saw the sparkage between Veronica and Logan and that out-of-the-blue kiss at the Camelot, and I knew I was going to keep watching. I liked many of Sue's ideas. Whatever works, whatever gets people watching, whatever gets people loving the show the way I do, I will be a proponent for it.
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Post by Casual viewer on Apr 12, 2006 13:17:29 GMT -5
Hi.
A Third Season,right? Cross fingers.It will be rude and ruthless.
If the goal is to get more viewers to stay on the air, get a complete Season - because I don't think a show with such low ratings will get one unless it proves quickly it can get at least twice more viewers than what it's doing nowadays- and keep a good part of GG lead, if they're paired,of course, then I think RT needs to RESET his show to keep a big part of its lead.
I'm not talking about creativity,here,it's just a 'marketing' POV.My job.The almighty $$$.
It's ShowBIZ and without enough viewers,no advertisement,no advertisement,no money,no money,no show.Cut off without feelings.That's how it works.
A brand new show is the way,IMO. The show must get a fresh start as if it was its First Season.
Enter a show in its Third Season is frightening for new viewers,they don't want to feel lost and they're lazy. If they don't understand what's going on from the start,they will change channel.Click!Like that!
Reruns in the Summer won't be enough,IMO,and the show is much too complicated to be resumed in the first episode. Veronica goes to college. What a good opportunity to start fresh!
College is the part of our lives when we leave behind us most of our family ties and old 'childhood traumas'. New surroundings,independence,a new life as almost adults.
Veronica and her followers will experience it like all of us.
Keep some well-loved characters,yes, but without the too heavy emotional baggage they carry.
Time to let go of old storylines about Neptune that would confuse new viewers and put them off. Then eventually,once they're hooked,reintroduce with subtlety some old problems...Be sneaky.
The rest is affair of creativity.The writers proved they have plenty of it.Not my/our job,theirs.
Somehow,if I was in their shoes,I would go for a MOTW more intense,more action-packed than what they showed us this year. Easy viewing,a good hook... It works for most shows.L&O,for instance...and,to keep the Noir Angle, a Season long mistery, one with hints,clues, in EVERY episodes.Should please both fandoms.The old and new one. Without forgetting some tragic/melodramatic romances and shirtless men to keep the Fangirls sticked to their screen and squealing in delight. Let's not forget it's a girl-show.
Throw bones to everyone is the way to go.
Will the show keep its soul in the process? I don't know for sure...But without a big change,IMO,they're doomed. And they won't get a second chance.
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Post by raenstorm on Apr 17, 2006 0:31:42 GMT -5
Howdy... About a week or so ago I sent off your feedback to Rob. I summed up the responses at the top of the email and then included large chunks of your posts. Here's his email back to me:
Rae,
Thanks so much for sending this along.
VM fans should know this idea stemmed from our writers' room -- not the network.
The network has given us a very general note of "less confusing, please," and we think this would help them, but we're excited about the prospect of not dragging the BIG CASE out quite as long.
Here's what we like...
Easier to get guest cast for a seven/eight episode arc. Mysteries unbroken by preemptions and repeats. Easier for VM newbies to jump in at any given point. Less confusing.
Here's what concerns us...
Sure, it's less confusing, but less detail may equal less reward. Big Mysteries are difficult, and if we are doing three per year, can we continue to deliver the intrigue at the same level?
I believe we are going down this path. I really appreciate people taking time out to put in their two cents.
Rob
PS - Sue, I included a shamless plug/link to the S3 VM reviews. No guarantee that he'll read but never hurts to keep passing along the site to him! ;D
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Post by Sue on Apr 17, 2006 7:17:43 GMT -5
Howdy... About a week or so ago I sent off your feedback to Rob. I summed up the responses at the top of the email and then included large chunks of your posts. Here's his email back to me: Rae,
Thanks so much for sending this along.
VM fans should know this idea stemmed from our writers' room -- not the network.
The network has given us a very general note of "less confusing, please," and we think this would help them, but we're excited about the prospect of not dragging the BIG CASE out quite as long.
Here's what we like...
Easier to get guest cast for a seven/eight episode arc. Mysteries unbroken by preemptions and repeats. Easier for VM newbies to jump in at any given point. Less confusing.
Here's what concerns us...
Sure, it's less confusing, but less detail may equal less reward. Big Mysteries are difficult, and if we are doing three per year, can we continue to deliver the intrigue at the same level?
I believe we are going down this path. I really appreciate people taking time out to put in their two cents.
RobPS - Sue, I included a shamless plug/link to the S3 VM reviews. No guarantee that he'll read but never hurts to keep passing along the site to him! ;D You rock, Rae! He does seem to like internet interaction---but there are only so many hours in the day!
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Post by Lola m on Apr 17, 2006 7:45:43 GMT -5
Howdy... About a week or so ago I sent off your feedback to Rob. I summed up the responses at the top of the email and then included large chunks of your posts. Here's his email back to me: Rae,
Thanks so much for sending this along.
VM fans should know this idea stemmed from our writers' room -- not the network.
The network has given us a very general note of "less confusing, please," and we think this would help them, but we're excited about the prospect of not dragging the BIG CASE out quite as long.
Here's what we like...
Easier to get guest cast for a seven/eight episode arc. Mysteries unbroken by preemptions and repeats. Easier for VM newbies to jump in at any given point. Less confusing.
Here's what concerns us...
Sure, it's less confusing, but less detail may equal less reward. Big Mysteries are difficult, and if we are doing three per year, can we continue to deliver the intrigue at the same level?
I believe we are going down this path. I really appreciate people taking time out to put in their two cents.
RobPS - Sue, I included a shamless plug/link to the S3 VM reviews. No guarantee that he'll read but never hurts to keep passing along the site to him! ;D I like his reasons for this being a potentially good idea - in particular, "easier to get guest cast for a seven/eight episode arc" and "mysteries unbroken by preemptions and repeats".
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