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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 29, 2006 8:58:23 GMT -5
Whoohoo!!! This is me, standing and cheering for my show again. Oh my show - you're back, you're back. Amazing, awesome episode! So very well done. I got 1/2 of the rapist team right. Do I get a cookie? I've been critical this season over a lot of things but I also am eager to give applause where it is due and "Spit and Eggs" was a terrific episode. From the opening Veronica in danger to the flashback in time, I was riveted. I thought Rob did a great job of using the clues we've seen to create a plausible rape team with Mercer wanting power over the women and not wanting to make an effort(which is always the reason for rape, not the sex), the prison experiment showing us why Moe was subjected to him (and the clunky dialogue from Logan about Horshak tying in - I knew that was important!)to all the little things that pointed the way. Clues like Mercer dressing as a Clockwork Orange character, Moe's fascination with Battlestar Galatica, Club Flush, the keys, the tea, the prison experiment, the way Parker was instantly creeped out by meeting Mercer - which again I thought was important because that scene was well done - and so many more. Note to Logan: You need some new friends. They all seem to be criminals. Here's an idea - more time with Wallace perhaps? Loved their teaming up to attempt a rescue. Yes - I would very much like to see Logan get a "real" friend, like Wallace. He talks to Veronica about not letting people help her, but really, he needs to find help himself. I don't think he understands how much in need of help he is. Yes - perfect on setting us up for the Dean's death! Ditto again! I wondered what happened to Piz. I mean - Wallace went off with Logan, and I thought Piz was partnering with Veronica . . . must rewatch . . . can't remember is she sent him off to do something else, or what. And yes -KB in the break-up and shower scene: perfect! I have to go with Elaine. Piz was deliberately being dorky, trying to get attention . . . Elaine & Angel didn't realize, and Elaine was worse, I thought. So, who killed the Dean?
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 29, 2006 9:07:44 GMT -5
Teaser
Interesting previouslies.
Mac!!!
So the frats haven't been kicked out yet.
She's running from whom?
She was beaten.
Whose shoes are those?
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Post by Pixi on Nov 29, 2006 9:08:48 GMT -5
Logan smashing the cop car so he can be in jail with Mercer and Mo, yeah? Oh, yeah. He is sooo gonna go medieval on them. Well, he told Veronica he couldn't not take action . . . . It was very realistic (painfully realistic), but I hated the Veronica-Logan break-up scene. Ugh. Why, why, why must men feel NEEDED? Wanted isn't enough? They gotta be white knights? All the time? Poor Veronica. She shouldn't change for him, that's for sure. Stick to your guns, Veronica. Stay strong and independent and he's got to learn to be OK with it, or look for someone more his speed. I love Logan and love to watch his . . . lack of anger management skills . . . he's going to beat the snot out of Mercer & Moe, e.g., but Veronica isn't going to care for that either, I'm thinking. This is a good show. I loved the episode in general and that shocking ending! Just when I was reallly starting to like the Dean! I wonder what happened in the motel room. I sure hope Weevil does not get into any trouble for finding the Dean's body. Surely he is smart enough to call the cops and not touch anything. ALSO - who else thought Veronica was the one who offed Don Lamb in her perfect murder scenario?I did. (Spring were we sharing brains?) I am more emotionally invested in the Logan and Veronica relationship and I am so, so happy Rob let Logan break up with Veronica this time. I have to disagree though - Veronica wants Logan to change and in some ways she needs to change. She has to learn to trust those she loves. She talks about it but she doesn't do it. And not trusting Logan in this fall arc, not actually opening her heart up enough to share feelings with him - well change in a relationship works both ways. Logan was not wrong in wanting to protect her. I want to protect my children. People want to protect those they love. He was wrong to hire a bodyguard without telling her and he admitted it but since she won't let him do anything and he was worried, he took action. So I don't want her to stop being her kickass self. I do want her to stop being so judgmental and untrusting and to give a little to the relationship. You can't just accept. Logan's character has always needed to be needed. His whole frakked up life has left him alone and hurting most of the time. I understand Logan and I think the writers have done a magnificent job in creating a character that acts according to the character they have developed.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 29, 2006 9:11:29 GMT -5
Part I
Veronica's skeptical of the Lilith house. Good girl.
The display probably makes frats more popular.
So Greeks ARE getting kicked out.
1 week since last episode and Veronica's missing Logan. Guess she's been missing all those hints he's been dropping.
Dick's still a dick. Hee.
Logan's afraid he doesn't measure up.
Parting of ways? Tell me this isn't the end? Logan's a bit of a drama queen.
Weevil fixed the dean's TV. Nice way to curry favor.
Who's this guy? Former student. Former frat boy. Real surprise the alumni didn't weigh in earlier.
Or you could turn them into Row Houses.
Wally Workney
Is the Dean paranoid or not
It's unexpected? Don't pull a Buffy on me, Veronica.
Awww...
See!! Row House idea. Totally doable.
Dean shows up.
So Greeks are back.
Wow, that was not a very professional way of doing that, Mr. Dean.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 29, 2006 9:16:02 GMT -5
Part II
So frats have hummer to lilith house's pig float.
Wussy music, Dean.
American Beauty shot?
Dude! That's totally uncalled for!
Another unannounced guest.
Dean doesn't know what gaydar is. Hee.
GAH!!! My eyes, my eyes!! Please get rid of your bangs, Veronica!
So classified ad. Sounds like a threat from Lilith house, but is it?
Roofie detecting coaster. Clever, if they actually work. And if you happen to be sober enough to remember to test your drinks.
Changed at the printers. Hmm... was it Nish's doing?
Dean warmed up tto her much faster than Van Clemons did.
Oversharing much, Dean?
Perfect murder paper targets: Prof, ex-SOs, Lamb (hee, hee, Veronica), siblings
What's up with Tim!
Do we know his girlfriend?
Ah, she's the chick outside the frat house.
Oh, yeah, this whole Dean's wife and the prof thing
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 29, 2006 9:21:51 GMT -5
Part III
Moe is Pre-med?
Veronica tooling everyone she can
What else did Veronica do with Moe's phone?
Now Veronica's asking for help. Yeah, that was never her problem. It's more of the give and take thing she has problem with.
You're pretty demanding of Mac considering you haven't seen her for several episodes.
Dats of affair coincide with "Junior League Meetings"
Yeah, this looking out for each other thing should be happening anyway.
Why isn't Parker being tooled to help?
Fake IDs as appreciation gifts. Hee!
Ah, the guy Veronica threw beer on. Hee.
Everyone must purchase one or the other.
The coasters are fake?
Chip's bounced back, I see.
Oh. My. God.
Piz and Wallace. Hee.
When I look at you, all I see are petri dishes. Best. Line. Ever.
Obnoxious guy. Gotta love Mac.
The Dean's worried about honor.
Downing his sorrows.
Dean's not so drunk or is he gonna do something stupid?
Tim's airing laundry in public.
Everyone's still a suspect. Except Mercer. Who was standing right there, unless he had an accomplice.
This plan veronica has is pretty tight.
Kim Kaiser.
Prof is a stoner.
Dude, Dean's wife. That's what peepholes were invented for.
Dean's gonna shoot the prof?
So Carrie's the one who's been roofied.
bennis hall.
What was that?
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Post by Pixi on Nov 29, 2006 9:23:00 GMT -5
Logan deserves a lot of credit for recognizing he and Veronica's problems and acting accordingly. While I still don't think he understands just how much his own behavior needs to change, it was a step in the right direction to end things. They weren't right for one another...at least for now. Rob Thomas hit all the right notes with Logan in this episode. I don't know how Webster would define maturity, but in part I'd guess it involves our ability to temper our emotions in favor of common sense. When a child isn't allowed to go to the park and play because no adult is available to watch them, the child screams, cries, throws things...even worse, who hasn't seen kids who physically assault their parents? Happens all the time. At some point, though, most of us reach a maturity that allows us to understand we can't do such things any more; that kind of behavior is at least unacceptable...at most, illegal. Logan is one of those who has slipped through the cracks. He is technically an adult, he speaks as an adult...yet he isn't a man, because the childish things haven't been put away. On a visceral level, all of us can approve of Logan smashing the county's vehicles (thereby protesting against their bumbling) AND getting his hands on the two slimeballs who were willing to kill Veronica to save their own sorry asses. I know I was nodding my head in approval when he was locked in that cell. But then I got to thinking: who among us would actually go through with such a drastic plan, even if it was our own family? Wallace is very close to Veronica, but I doubt he even considered it. Keith had an enormous opportunity to cause them serious pain, but he didn't either. What good could he do Veronica if he, too, were in jail? If it were me...much as I may want to pummel anyone who seriously hurt my family, I know I wouldn't do what Logan did...and I'm willing to bet most people posting here wouldn't, either. We'll scream and throw a fit, but we won't cross that line. Our maturity and common sense separates us from the psycho-rapist killers of the world. I guess the point I'm trying to make is this: Logan shouldn't be in a relationship with anyone until he can stop himself from self-destructive actions, no matter how understandable. You have some good insights, Rob. But, I think there are points you are missing out on here. Veronica is Logan's only link ... the only thing he has to lose, least as far as he is concerned. His dad and mom are dead. He never cared much for his idiot half-sister... His best buddy left for Australia on the lam with a baby. He has no "real" friends. I mean.. who? Dick? His other pal of recent, Mercer, jsut turned out to be a rapist. So, when a guy with a temper (both genetic and taught by daddy) has nothing to lose and a person (Mercer) he trusted somewhat (and tried to protect) jsut f*cked with his girlfriend to the point of trying to kill her... yeah, I see him going right into that cell and doing his worst. What's he got to lose? He knows he can't be with Veronica because of BOTH their issues, but he sure as hell loves her. He basically told Veronica he would do anything for her, that he would always be there for her. In doing this, vigilante as it may be, he is being there for her. Satisfying a certain personal score himself, sure, but I can't help but feel that anyone that knows Veronica and loves her will feel bad about what happens to these two guys and that justice was served. As far as betting most people wouldn't, fairly safe bet; but not all. I've been there, and over less and with more to lose. It's not immaturity, as I see it; it's a state of mind. It's truly having little or nothing to lose. And what does Logan have to lose? His trust fund will be there while he serves a year or so on the state's dime. He doesn't have to worry about "public opinion." Heck, he might even get off with a sympathetic jury (assuming he jsut beats the crap out of Mercer and the RA and doesn't kill them). Worst that happens to him, he gets out of jail and he is still "Logan Echolls, spoiled rich brat of that murdering actor." Which he will always be to the world that doesn't know him. Veronica isn't gonna hate him for what he did; Keith isn't gonna think "less" of him. You think Eli will have a problem with it? Or Wallace? Or the actually raped girls? No, he is providing the service he can, because of his own special circumstance. Some people do not and will not ever fit into proper society... and sometimes that can be a good thing, even if we civilized, mature folks don't like to admit it. Heck, it's why we root for Veronica and Keith every time they break a piddlin' law to make sure justice is served. They are often doing things that "most people posting here wouldn't" as well. And Rob, hey, this is jsut a spirited debate. You know I love ya, dude. I will stop short of saying I want to have your babies, cause.. well, that would jsut be ooky. Vlad Excellent, well-thought out posts - both Rob and Vlad. I guess it's no surprise that I tend to agree more with Vlad but, in essence echoing Spring the bottom line probably comes down to loving beyond passion, beyond reason. If someone hurt one of my children - I don't know what I would do. I'm not particularly brave but I know even when it's just verbal hurt, I tend to be confrontational. This was Logan - reacting in a way true to his character. Does he need to grow up, to control this impulse? Logan to me has shown the most character growth and maturity of any of the characters on this show. Rob and writing staff have taken his character on this long, arcing journey that has had steps forward, steps back, relapses, growth - watching it has been enthralling. I get Logan - he's such a real character. I can see one of my sons doing jackassery things sometimes and I can see them doing brave, noble things. I just get his character. I want him to spend more time with Keith, Wallace -those who have good moral centers. But in a dark, noir world - he is to me the Humphrey Bogart, the character who stumbles, falls and yet in the end, does what needs to be done, what a hero does. Many will disagree - and all are valid viewpoints. But to me, his arc of redemption, his growth - with all it's fumbles and missteps are something I have invested in.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 29, 2006 9:24:45 GMT -5
Part IV
Bomb scares around finals? Really? That's hard core.
Also, Veronica's clever. if that had actually worked.
Hearst police. Are you forgetting how corrupt and incompetent they are?
Mercer. So it is him? CREEPY!!!!!!!
But it's not the girl, I bet.
I'm getting nauseous.
YAY!!!!!!!
Now we're all caught up
It's Tim's feet we see.
Cell phone Veronica?
No, it's Moe.
A bunch of guys are in it together?
Locked her in? Though I don't think you can do that with Dorm rooms.
Moe and Mercer are friends and the drink was drugged. After all that attention to drugged drinks at the party.
Cell phone, Veronica? Finally!!!!!
All the hair. Ew!!!!!!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 29, 2006 9:26:57 GMT -5
Coda
Sir. What does Mercer have over Moe?
YAY!!!! Parker to the rescue!!! That's exactly what I wanted.
Pet couger. Heh.
WTF
More egging. Honestly.
Ya know, student protests used to be cool.
YECH!!!!
denouement
There's Logan. Why?
Ah, he wanted to beat the crap out of Mercer.
Dean's dead. So... who dunnit? Next mystery arc?
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 29, 2006 9:27:49 GMT -5
I still don't understand Moe and Mercer's motivation. Or Mercer's motivation and why Moe went along (unless it was because he had gambling debts).
If Mercer was just psycho, that's not very interesting to me.
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Post by Pixi on Nov 29, 2006 9:31:40 GMT -5
I still don't understand Moe and Mercer's motivation. Or Mercer's motivation and why Moe went along (unless it was because he had gambling debts). If Mercer was just psycho, that's not very interesting to me. Moe was subjected to Mercer during the prison experiment thing that Logan and Wallace did earlier in the season. Logan's lines about Horshak and the other guy continuing the prisoner relationship foreshadowed what Mercer and Moe have going. Mercer is the dominant one - notice Moe calls him Sir? So he helped pick out the victims, provided the keys and helped cover Mercer by stalking Veronica in the parking garage. As for Mercer's motivation - well rape is always about power - not sex, so that plays into the prisoner situation again. In his little monologue he mentioned how he doesn't want to bother with the whole talking part and just wants the sex so we infer that his motivation is wanting power and sex and not wanting to bother talking or dating a girl to get it. The shaving of the hair was partly trophy for Moe (creepy moment with the hair falling on Veronica) and Mercer leaving his mark.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 29, 2006 9:39:55 GMT -5
I still don't understand Moe and Mercer's motivation. Or Mercer's motivation and why Moe went along (unless it was because he had gambling debts). If Mercer was just psycho, that's not very interesting to me. Moe was subjected to Mercer during the prison experiment thing that Logan and Wallace did earlier in the season. Logan's lines about Horshak and the other guy continuing the prisoner relationship foreshadowed what Mercer and Moe have going. Mercer is the dominant one - notice Moe calls him Sir? So he helped pick out the victims, provided the keys and helped cover Mercer by stalking Veronica in the parking garage. As for Mercer's motivation - well rape is always about power - not sex, so that plays into the prisoner situation again. In his little monologue he mentioned how he doesn't want to bother with the whole talking part and just wants the sex so we infer that his motivation is wanting power and sex and not wanting to bother talking or dating a girl to get it. The shaving of the hair was partly trophy for Moe (creepy moment with the hair falling on Veronica) and Mercer leaving his mark. Eh, I guess. I'm still sort of disappointed in the resolution. I was hoping for something more. Mercer just seems to be your typical, stereotypical rapist, albeit very good at covering his tracts; I didn't find that that interesting. And they targeted those particular girls, why? Just by chance they were the most convenient? Maybe I'll feel differently when I rewatch the entire arc. ETA: The one thing I do find interesting is that once again, the perp is associated with Logan some how, and he never put it together. The people you know.
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Laura forgot password
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Post by Laura forgot password on Nov 29, 2006 11:49:47 GMT -5
Hi, y'all. No time for real comment on the ep -- which I loved -- but I do have an idea about who killed the Dean. And all this, by the way, is my speculating. I have NO IDEA what happens in the series -- I am COMPLETELY unspoiled for the future. This is just what I think.
This may seem a non sequitur, but it's not -- did anybody catch the episode of Monk a couple of seasons ago, in which Emma Caulfield guested? She played a creative writing teacher, who assigned her class an essay on "How to commit the perfect murder." Sharona (yes, this was a while ago!) wrote her essay, which (and I'm not going into the convoluted plot) served as the blueprint for the Emma/Anya/the teacher and her lover to murder her husband. Ultimately, Monk and Sharona figure it out.
I think the assignment for Veronica's criminology class is significant here -- I think that it's going to turn out to be either the professor (I cannot remember his name) or Tim -- both of whom had access to the three "A" papers. And I think it's going to be one of the two "not Veronica" papers that will provide the blueprint for the dean's murder.
Now, having said it could be the prof -- I don't think it will be him, on account of "too obvious." (For that matter, I don't think it's the widow, either, even though she probably had access to the papers while they were both in Sacramento.) That leaves Tim. I think his explosion at his girlfriend during the party was the "setup" for the new mystery arc. I think his comment that he'd been having "different women" can be interpreted to mean that he too had had something with the Dean's wife. I think that he may have had past issues with the Dean and/or the prof, and that he's using the "perfect murder" papers as a way of offing the Dean and framing the prof for it.
Any way -- this is my completely unspoiled speculation about the next mystery. I had no clue as to the identity of the rapist, so I could be entirely wrong about this. But it's a nice theory.
Cheers.
(And I hope I haven't now killed this thread. Last time I posted (over in Lost, it did.)
[/color]
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Post by Sue on Nov 29, 2006 14:11:13 GMT -5
Hi, y'all. No time for real comment on the ep -- which I loved -- but I do have an idea about who killed the Dean. And all this, by the way, is my speculating. I have NO IDEA what happens in the series -- I am COMPLETELY unspoiled for the future. This is just what I think.
This may seem a non sequitur, but it's not -- did anybody catch the episode of Monk a couple of seasons ago, in which Emma Caulfield guested? She played a creative writing teacher, who assigned her class an essay on "How to commit the perfect murder." Sharona (yes, this was a while ago!) wrote her essay, which (and I'm not going into the convoluted plot) served as the blueprint for the Emma/Anya/the teacher and her lover to murder her husband. Ultimately, Monk and Sharona figure it out.
I think the assignment for Veronica's criminology class is significant here -- I think that it's going to turn out to be either the professor (I cannot remember his name) or Tim -- both of whom had access to the three "A" papers. And I think it's going to be one of the two "not Veronica" papers that will provide the blueprint for the dean's murder.
Now, having said it could be the prof -- I don't think it will be him, on account of "too obvious." (For that matter, I don't think it's the widow, either, even though she probably had access to the papers while they were both in Sacramento.) That leaves Tim. I think his explosion at his girlfriend during the party was the "setup" for the new mystery arc. I think his comment that he'd been having "different women" can be interpreted to mean that he too had had something with the Dean's wife. I think that he may have had past issues with the Dean and/or the prof, and that he's using the "perfect murder" papers as a way of offing the Dean and framing the prof for it.
Any way -- this is my completely unspoiled speculation about the next mystery. I had no clue as to the identity of the rapist, so I could be entirely wrong about this. But it's a nice theory.
Cheers.
(And I hope I haven't now killed this thread. Last time I posted (over in Lost, it did.)
[/color] [/quote] Wow! A pre-emptive guess about the next mystery arc! You go girl!
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Post by KMInfinity on Nov 29, 2006 14:28:34 GMT -5
While this was terrific episode with a million connecting ideas and things, I was not much pleased with the rape resolution…
What I liked: -that it was Parker who essentially saved Veronica
-seeing Veronica forming a “scooby gang” with Wallace and Pez and Mac and even Logan…made me realize how much she dealt with people one-on-one only and not as part of a group or community
What I did NOT like: -the character motivation is seriously lacking here for me… I’ve gotta rethink this after reading Pixi’s posts, especially It may be that I’ll get it better when I watch multiple episodes in a row on DVD. I’m finding I like that better than weekly episodic TV.
-that Veronica once again had to be dumbed down a bit to achieve the climax…drinking the tea just seemed dumb on her part
-the serious lack of hints that there could be more than one person involved. Mystery novels a la Christie are always careful to rule out that possibility because it opens up so many scenarios that it becomes “unfair” to the reader, so I guess the fact that the Lilith girls were working together could be construed as a hint that there was a male “team” also working together….or did I miss a good hint in retrospect???
Other comments *I just knew the Dean was gonna die..the set up reminded me of the way a soap opera has multiple scenes with characters hating one guy, so you have a bunch of suspects all lined up
*I was watching Logan go ape-shit over the police car and thinking, “HuH…is he blaming the cops for not getting to Veronica quickly enough….” Then I saw Mercer and Moe in jail and it all made sense…
*Great analysis of Logan’s actions, Rob and Vlad…I think that scene was deliberately put there to show that Logan isn’t as mature as he seemed earlier when breaking up with Veronica….but so in character. So yeah it makes sense for Logan to do it, and shows he might “know” intellectually what to do but can’t or won’t control what his heart is telling him. People always talk about “following one’s heart” in this casual way, when in fact, if one’s heart is full of darkness it isn’t a very good guide. Whereas, behaving purely from an intellectual focus is sometimes seen as being cold, controlling, and inhuman. I like that the metaphor been one’s head and heart are an issue here for Logan.
*I’m a bit confused about the “music issue” in the plot, and the bomb issue. Need to rewatch.
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