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Post by Spaced Out Looney on May 23, 2007 9:12:00 GMT -5
That "what did you do?" sounds a whole lot by SMG as Buffy. Love Wallace coming to Veronica and Piz's defense. Parker breaks up with Logan. This show just got really soapy all of a sudden. Some one's always supposed to pay, isn't that the rule we live by?Very interesting... Yeah, where did that come from? Did he learn that from his dad? Some one may have to pay, but that doesn't mean that you should be the one to dole out the punishment. It's rather shocking that he says that, but isn't that the attitude Veronica also has, to a certain extent?
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on May 23, 2007 9:25:08 GMT -5
I'm very glad the show ended on such a strong note. The last two episodes harkened back to what this show does best: force protagonists to wander into grayer territory than they would prefer, while hoping the end justifies the means. That's Veronica Mars in a nutshell. Obviously this really wasn't designed to be a series finale...which is too bad. I'd have liked for Rob Thomas to go a more Joss-ian route and give each season a definitive ending (with the exception of Season 6...but then, at the time UPN had given BtVS a 2-year pickup). Thomas had to know the show's potential of renewal was 50-50...and that's the absolute best case scenario. There should be so many ramifications to the events in this episode...and now we're not to see any of them. :-( I'll always wonder how more people didn't tune in; when this show was on its game, it was better than 95% of other network programming. In the few episodes when the show was struggling to find direction, it was only better than 90%. I suppose I should be grateful the network allowed for 64 episodes since the show never developed a mainstream following, a la "Gilmore Girls" or *choke* "Top Model." I don't think anyone can say Veronica Mars didn't get a chance to find acceptance. I'd like to consider myself a person of slightly above-average intelligence. Despite that fact...I still spend a lot of hours in front of the television :-), and I think it's fair to say I'm far from alone in that. I'd like to think I've learned to separate wheat from chaff pretty quickly...and VM stood out from the first 5 minutes of the pilot. For the life of me, I'll never understand why a bigger percentage of the viewing population didn't see what I saw. Of course, this isn't new for me: "Firefly" never really captured mainstream imagination (though as we know, no thanks to Fox), "Wiseguy" actually got 4 seasons and several Emmy/Golden Globe nominations, but for whatever reason it never got the audience it deserved. Yet "Walker: Texas Ranger" lasted what, 9 years? "According To Jim" lives on? "Survivor: (Insert Remote Location Here)?" "American Idol?" "The Bachelor?" I don't mean to offend those among us who watch one or more of the shows I listed there...but after seeing the strength of this Veronica Mars finale, I find myself increasingly bitter. If people in this country insist on watching dreck that makes them feel smarter, rather than something that actually challenges their intellect, I have to wonder where the hell society is headed. And on that depressing note, I retire for the evening. Maybe I'll talk more about episode specifics tomorrow, if I feel up to it. Rob, Also agree with your entire analysis. Honestly? Honestly---VM belonged on PBS. Seriously---like some of those British dramas or comedys. It had that kind of depth. I know why it didn't get more fans, mentioned in my first post: Network Time Slot Competition Audience Appeal was just.....odd. I get why teeny-boppers did "get" it. (Like Buffy seasons 6-7; or maybe even 4-7. Veronica started out too dark and too sophisticated and too mature for the "average" UPN/CW demographic. PBS. If VM had been in novel form it would have been one of those mature teen novels that received awards and became a permanent fixture on required reading lists in AP English courses. At least, if the universe were fair.I honestly wonder about advertising, because I this nagging feeling that there were a lot of people who would have watched if they had known about it (especially since House repeats, so it's not impossible to watch both). Advertising always seems to affect viewership, regardless of quality. I only say this because, while I know people who love the show, and I know people who loved it at one time and rant about it for one reason or another, I've never heard anyone say, "Veronica Mars? Yeah, I tried watching it, but it just didn't do anything for me." Many of my co-students have never even heard of the show.
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Post by Sue on May 23, 2007 9:36:27 GMT -5
Rob, Also agree with your entire analysis. Honestly? Honestly---VM belonged on PBS. Seriously---like some of those British dramas or comedys. It had that kind of depth. I know why it didn't get more fans, mentioned in my first post: Network Time Slot Competition Audience Appeal was just.....odd. I get why teeny-boppers did "get" it. (Like Buffy seasons 6-7; or maybe even 4-7. Veronica started out too dark and too sophisticated and too mature for the "average" UPN/CW demographic. PBS. If VM had been in novel form it would have been one of those mature teen novels that received awards and became a permanent fixture on required reading lists in AP English courses. At least, if the universe were fair.I honestly wonder about advertising, because I this nagging feeling that there were a lot of people who would have watched if they had known about it (especially since House repeats, so it's not impossible to watch both). Advertising always seems to affect viewership, regardless of quality. I only say this because, while I know people who love the show, and people who loved it at one time and rant about it for one reason or another, I've never heard anyone say, "Veronica Mars? Yeah, I tried watching it, but it just didn't do anything for me." Many of my co-students have never even heard of the show. Very much agree. Didn't ratings go up when it was briefly shown on CBS in repeats? Excellent point. (And, again UPN only had about 85% coverage nationwide, I think.)
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Post by Matthew on May 23, 2007 9:52:49 GMT -5
Well, I knew that there would be wildly varying opinions on the finale. Heck, I have wildly varying opinions and even those opinions vary from moment to moment.I think instead of encapsulating I'll just answer posts one by one. There ya go. That's me.
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Post by Matthew on May 23, 2007 9:59:35 GMT -5
I gotta say, that Sue has a point: I was totally engaged in it, and there with the participants at every twist, bleeding with all of them, and worrying about all of them. But knowing that it was a SERIES ender instead of a mere season-ender made it a real bitter brew to swallow. I mean, it's one thing if you get to look forward to more tales of redemption, but this was so... " Chinatown" in ending. VERY noir, VERY intense: and I'm not eschewing that: I watched all the eps of "Thief" and loved it, and am soooo hooked in "The Riches" right now that I couldn't drop the show if I tried, no matter how bad things get, because there's always that pagliacci-type laughing in the face of hell going on. It's the "Well, you're all so screwed, and we have come back full circle to the beginning of the series" that has me feeling resentful. And though that works from the dramatic standpoint, and has a tragic symmetry to it, well, I just want them to not be in the same ruts they all were in when we first came into the show. Well, I suppose V's not, really, as she has Piz and Wallace and Mac, but Logan's in a similar hell to the one he was in when we first saw him, Keith is in dishonor and is no longer Sheriff, and a thousand or more evil evil powerful men are known to be loose in this world, and the response of a truly morally responsible person is to destroy them with their own hellish secrets, though many of them are amoral and ruthless enough to make that road hell and certain destruction.
Seriously: I'll watch this episode again, and cheer as Veronica shows the steel she has inside, and I'll pity and be angry with Logan as he follows his self-destructive heart, and I'll adore Mac and Wallace and even Piz, and I won't hate Dick as much as I used to, but...oh, Keith. True, this was a hell of an episode and the stakes were raised so freaking high, and NOW I WANNA SEE WHAT'S FREAKIN' NEXT! THAT'S why this ending sucked like a swedish porn star!!!! And holy god, but I wanna see Logan stop breaking himself, though I doubt it's possible. Matthew-- (I know what you mean about The Riches. I didn't even bother to recommend it to Jim because he watches PBS, Discovery, History and Food channels (sadly we don't get Nat'l Geog channel). And he already thinks all I do is troll for new fictional shows. But he must have been channel surfing and The Riches sucked him right in. Good writing is good writing; good acting is good acting (he's totally in love with Minnie).) Normally, I'm not one to keep watching a show that just gets darker and darker and sadder and sadder and abuses its characters relentlessly. (An issue I've had over and over with BSG.) So who knows what would have happened if VM had had a season 4, but I don't think this is the case. RT takes them down these dark paths but generally they do seem to come through and get stronger. As to the red. Yes. I thought THAT was fascinating. Honestly, Veronica surprised me. That she would back off on the info on the disk. (Just having seen it probably puts her life in danger if you ask me.) I thought maybe she and Keith would try to actually bring people to justice. So she finally recognized that there are people so powerful that even she shouldn't take them on? Or (sad to say an indictment of V's character (but she's young) our Veronica is self-absorbed enough that no price is too high to pay to extract revenge but simply going after "justice" is not worth it? Altho, she even gave up on the revenge thing once she knew who the guy was. Given that she's taken on the Fitzpatrick's in the past this seemed a bit odd to me. Plus, she had a video-taped "confession.") [And, dropping back to actually look at specifics of the ep---that scene in the storage unit and the (invisible dog fence) collars was really, really creepy.] Anyway, I got off track, but I agree and said earlier I would have loved to see V and K go up against Kane, et al. Now, as to the part in green. Totally agree BUT: in the end this finale had a very "NFA" vibe about it. Our hero has gone very dark (the Keith part as well as V) but still has her friends gathered round her. She/they are at a very low point, we don't see how they can win the fight, we don't know how the fight will change them all but....but, but, but.....we know they will fight, we know they will overcome evil, we hope they will survive and return to make the world a better place. (Yeah, RT ought to write a book. Not a comic book, but doesn't he write books?) Oh, I'm certain that she kept a copy of the hard drive after she decrypted it. I don't see her as the kind to make an empty threat like she did, when she dropped off the original to its owner. But yeah, that much and that kind of information is dynamite. Once she made the decision to give Trish the list of names, I think she committed herself, in the "in for a penny, in for a pound" kind of way, but she may be setting it on the back burner for now.
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Post by Matthew on May 23, 2007 10:02:50 GMT -5
I gotta say, that Sue has a point: I was totally engaged in it, and there with the participants at every twist, bleeding with all of them, and worrying about all of them. But knowing that it was a SERIES ender instead of a mere season-ender made it a real bitter brew to swallow. I mean, it's one thing if you get to look forward to more tales of redemption, but this was so... " Chinatown" in ending. VERY noir, VERY intense: and I'm not eschewing that: I watched all the eps of "Thief" and loved it, and am soooo hooked in "The Riches" right now that I couldn't drop the show if I tried, no matter how bad things get, because there's always that pagliacci-type laughing in the face of hell going on. It's the "Well, you're all so screwed, and we have come back full circle to the beginning of the series" that has me feeling resentful. And though that works from the dramatic standpoint, and has a tragic symmetry to it, well, I just want them to not be in the same ruts they all were in when we first came into the show. Well, I suppose V's not, really, as she has Piz and Wallace and Mac, but Logan's in a similar hell to the one he was in when we first saw him, Keith is in dishonor and is no longer Sheriff, and a thousand or more evil evil powerful men are known to be loose in this world, and the response of a truly morally responsible person is to destroy them with their own hellish secrets, though many of them are amoral and ruthless enough to make that road hell and certain destruction.
Seriously: I'll watch this episode again, and cheer as Veronica shows the steel she has inside, and I'll pity and be angry with Logan as he follows his self-destructive heart, and I'll adore Mac and Wallace and even Piz, and I won't hate Dick as much as I used to, but...oh, Keith. True, this was a hell of an episode and the stakes were raised so freaking high, and NOW I WANNA SEE WHAT'S FREAKIN' NEXT! THAT'S why this ending sucked like a swedish porn star!!!! And holy god, but I wanna see Logan stop breaking himself, though I doubt it's possible. Matthew-- (I know what you mean about The Riches. I didn't even bother to recommend it to Jim because he watches PBS, Discovery, History and Food channels (sadly we don't get Nat'l Geog channel). And he already thinks all I do is troll for new fictional shows. But he must have been channel surfing and The Riches sucked him right in. Good writing is good writing; good acting is good acting (he's totally in love with Minnie).) Normally, I'm not one to keep watching a show that just gets darker and darker and sadder and sadder and abuses its characters relentlessly. (An issue I've had over and over with BSG.) So who knows what would have happened if VM had had a season 4, but I don't think this is the case. RT takes them down these dark paths but generally they do seem to come through and get stronger. As to the red. Yes. I thought THAT was fascinating. Honestly, Veronica surprised me. That she would back off on the info on the disk. (Just having seen it probably puts her life in danger if you ask me.) I thought maybe she and Keith would try to actually bring people to justice. So she finally recognized that there are people so powerful that even she shouldn't take them on? Or (sad to say an indictment of V's character (but she's young) our Veronica is self-absorbed enough that no price is too high to pay to extract revenge but simply going after "justice" is not worth it? Altho, she even gave up on the revenge thing once she knew who the guy was. Given that she's taken on the Fitzpatrick's in the past this seemed a bit odd to me. Plus, she had a video-taped "confession.") [And, dropping back to actually look at specifics of the ep---that scene in the storage unit and the (invisible dog fence) collars was really, really creepy.] Anyway, I got off track, but I agree and said earlier I would have loved to see V and K go up against Kane, et al. Now, as to the part in green. Totally agree BUT: in the end this finale had a very "NFA" vibe about it. Our hero has gone very dark (the Keith part as well as V) but still has her friends gathered round her. She/they are at a very low point, we don't see how they can win the fight, we don't know how the fight will change them all but....but, but, but.....we know they will fight, we know they will overcome evil, we hope they will survive and return to make the world a better place. (Yeah, RT ought to write a book. Not a comic book, but doesn't he write books?) Also: "Hugh? Where are you? You're in the desert with muslims?" ;D </riches>
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Post by Karen on May 23, 2007 11:55:29 GMT -5
Yeah, where did that come from? Did he learn that from his dad? Some one may have to pay, but that doesn't mean that you should be the one to dole out the punishment. How else, if society isn't going to do it through "proper" channels?Eh. Ties in to the Castle files. That was such an Andrew Vachss moment, that whole story element: terrible and full of wonder and awe at the depths and limits of the human capacity for evil and calloussness, and the... responsibility implicit in having that information (as to specifics) in hand. So easy to build a "better dead" list from watching/listening to the files, and WHAT do you DO with that clear knowledge that this man is evil to the core, that man is troubled by his sins and those he's seen, and how do you proceed? Giving whatsherhead the list of the members isn't nearly a beginning. Yep. Thats Logans mindset. It was also Duncans. They seem to have been brought up to believe they could conduct their lives outside the law. And look where it got him - he pummeled an innocent man (Piz), and now his defending of Veronicas honor is going to make him a target. Of course, that depends on whether or not this secret society decides to make it an issue. I think the less publicity, the better where that is concerned. Logan will probably get a pass. Veronica will, too. There is too much as stake here, especially if all those names are brought out in a lawsuit. Exposing just the names might destroy it, or most likely push it more underground.
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Post by Queen E on May 23, 2007 16:24:50 GMT -5
Huh.
I guess I can understand not liking Logan beating up the guy...but to me that doesn't make him Aaron; it makes him Spike. Meaning, Aaron was a calculating narcissist; even in the beating up of Trina's boyfriend, it was because he touched what was Aaron's. It's OK if HE hits his kids, because they are his. It is not OK if someone else does.
Whereas Logan, to borrow a phrase, goes in "all fists and fangs" to defend those he cares about. Aaron never cared about anyone but Aaron. Logan even cares about Dick, and that says something. Does it means he's "good"? No, not in the conventional sense. But he's not a monster and he's not a narcisstist. He just lacks sense and self-preservation.
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Post by Queen E on May 23, 2007 16:28:31 GMT -5
Yeah, where did that come from? Did he learn that from his dad? Some one may have to pay, but that doesn't mean that you should be the one to dole out the punishment. It's rather shocking that he says that, but isn't that the attitude Veronica also has, to a certain extent? Well, yes, if by "a certain extent" you mean, "exactly the same." Logan may use his fists, but Veronica is far more calculating; Logan even points that out. To wit, Logan beats up Piz. Veronica cancels a guy's credit card, gets his wheels removed, and threatens his with a tazer. The only thing that's different is that Veronica revenges at a remove.
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Post by jeff on May 23, 2007 16:33:11 GMT -5
Huh. I guess I can understand not liking Logan beating up the guy...but to me that doesn't make him Aaron; it makes him Spike. Meaning, Aaron was a calculating narcissist; even in the beating up of Trina's boyfriend, it was because he touched what was Aaron's. It's OK if HE hits his kids, because they are his. It is not OK if someone else does. Whereas Logan, to borrow a phrase, goes in "all fists and fangs" to defend those he cares about. Aaron never cared about anyone but Aaron. Logan even cares about Dick, and that says something. Does it means he's "good"? No, not in the conventional sense. But he's not a monster and he's not a narcisstist. He just lacks sense and self-preservation. Not only that , he did apologize to Veronica and Piz for the fight, which is something Aaron would not have done. Logan did not ever apologize for being who he is , just for what he had done.
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Post by Karen on May 23, 2007 16:46:38 GMT -5
Huh. I guess I can understand not liking Logan beating up the guy...but to me that doesn't make him Aaron; it makes him Spike. Meaning, Aaron was a calculating narcissist; even in the beating up of Trina's boyfriend, it was because he touched what was Aaron's. It's OK if HE hits his kids, because they are his. It is not OK if someone else does. Whereas Logan, to borrow a phrase, goes in "all fists and fangs" to defend those he cares about. Aaron never cared about anyone but Aaron. Logan even cares about Dick, and that says something. Does it means he's "good"? No, not in the conventional sense. But he's not a monster and he's not a narcisstist. He just lacks sense and self-preservation. I agree that Logan beating up Piz and the guy at the end while defending Veronica doesn't make him Aaron. I think he's really trying and has come a long way from the guy who set up the bum fight in the first season. Loving Veronica has a lot to do with how far he's come. He's learned a lot and has grown. It's hard to shed your upbringing, and I think there is a certain sense of entitlement and being above the law still left in Logan, and Dick. But that doesn't make them monsters. But striking out before you're sure of the truth of what's going on, as in Piz's case is still wrong. And I think Logan's anger and jealousy over Piz and Veronica being together played a part in why he struck out at Piz so quickly and brutally. Logan's apology to Piz somewhat redeemed him. But you know what they say - talk is cheap. You can say sorry till the cows come home, but it don't mean nothing if you keep doing the same wrong thing over and over...
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Post by Queen E on May 23, 2007 16:46:55 GMT -5
Huh. I guess I can understand not liking Logan beating up the guy...but to me that doesn't make him Aaron; it makes him Spike. Meaning, Aaron was a calculating narcissist; even in the beating up of Trina's boyfriend, it was because he touched what was Aaron's. It's OK if HE hits his kids, because they are his. It is not OK if someone else does. Whereas Logan, to borrow a phrase, goes in "all fists and fangs" to defend those he cares about. Aaron never cared about anyone but Aaron. Logan even cares about Dick, and that says something. Does it means he's "good"? No, not in the conventional sense. But he's not a monster and he's not a narcisstist. He just lacks sense and self-preservation. Not only that , he did apologize to Veronica and Piz for the fight, which is something Aaron would not have done. Logan did not ever apologize for being who he is , just for what he had done. Word. I'm with Lola, I really liked this ending. I also really loved Not Fade Away...which is what this reminded me of (Sue? Karen? Someone else suggested this and that's exactly right.) I like the ambiguity, and think it's really brave to not end with everything tied up in a bow...except character continuity. Veronica is Veronica, Logan is Logan, Keith is Keith, Wallace is Wallace, Weevil is Weevil. Not that they haven't changed, but in essence, they are who they always were. Oh there is so much more to say...the parallels between Logan and Veronica, who are soulmates in the weirdest possible way. (Anyone looking at Veronica to be a "good influence" on Logan is barking up the wrong tree; the truth is, they are both more than a little amoral and fucked up, which is perfect in noir 'verse and means that involvement outside that noir construct is doomed to fail.) Keith, the good man in a bad town. Wallace, the heart and integrity Veronica needs to keep close. Weevil, so easily coded as the "gangster with the heart of gold" but so much more complex than that...a man who knows he's in a bad town, and will do what's "good" both for himself and those he lets in, even if it means he is part of the corruption. So excellent.
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Post by Lola m on May 23, 2007 16:59:57 GMT -5
Ok, here are my notes as I was watching . . . Act I Logan tells Veronica about vid. “What did you do.” And gives him the smackdown that is both totally appropriate and heartbreaking. Because she is not only angry that he hurt Piz but also because she's angry and scared and trying to deny that the vid exists at all. Both of them must be having such flashbacks to Lilly and Aaron's tape of her. And there is Keith, still not knowing anything is wrong, playfully teasing her. "You can just walk in and feast like a princess!" Oh, Veronica. It really is heartbreaking how she asks Piz if he did do this, trying to be all casual and sophisticated as she's both convinced he had nothing to do with it and yet . . . worried. "Is this a thing you do that maybe you forgot to mention?" Parker is mad. Parker, you're not an idiot. But you and Logan do feel differently about each other. And, yes, he does still have feelings for Veronica. Plus, this is just a crappy thing that happened and is also pushing all sorts of buttons for each of them. He's a bit upset about Veronica seeing someone else, potentially having sex with someone else. That is a factor in this, part of why he beat up Piz. Definitely why he snarked at Piz earlier. But the extreme reaction? It's all about the vid.
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Post by Lola m on May 23, 2007 17:07:03 GMT -5
Act II "It's like you're this giant jackass pinata, begging for someone to beat the candy out of you." Too. Perfect. And she's doing an excellent job of showing us the truly monumental anger inside Veronica. It's practically a visible physical entity. She's shaking with anger (and hurt - but Veronica almost always turns hurt into anger). "After all these years, don't you instinctively fer me?" Oh, yes he does. He just needed to remember that. ;D "You're going to be so popular in hell." We really are back to the beginning. People staring, rumours and innuendo about her. When she gets her revenge on? Yeah, you better fear her, Chip. Ah, he does. So, Chip gives her Dominick. And Dom is stupid enough not to fear her . . . until she shows him why. And then Dom gives her the next name. Yes, this has to be the "castle" guys somehow. Ah, yes. She bugged him . . .taking pictures. Yep. Wallace. I know Wallace didn't know anything about this. If I know nothing else, I know Wallace would never do this to Veronica. Heck, wouldn't do this to anyone.
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Post by Lola m on May 23, 2007 17:19:32 GMT -5
Act III and IV (my notes got sloppy here and I didn't mark the change over point) Wallace. "Are you grilling me?" You know that Wallace wouldn't be a part of this . . . V bringing a change of clothes to dad at the office. Heee! "And you thought a photo of you in your boxers would hurt your lead in the polls?" Good point. Heh! Mars - Neptune - Milky Way. Nice use of imagery there, Veronica. ;D OK, so these "castle" guys are like the Skull and Bones guys. Mucho hush-hush wacky rich boy club thing. Have Wallace spy? Well, he says he's OK with it . . . but still. Kinda scary! All they can find is one tiny expose article by . . . ah! The newspaper woman. "And how do the ladies feel about that?" ;D Wallace is getting in a car trunk? Um. That's not good. Deserted storage rooms . . . strip?! Um. That's really not good. Well, I mean, yeah, it's nummy for those of us watching at home. But in reality? That would be a "I don't think so moment. As would putting on a weird blinking collar thing in front of a camera in obedience to a spooky faceless voice. Oh, and getting shocked and hearing other people yelling? Not a good sign either. Wanting him to tell the truth? They've got stories from his past . . . want him to say what happened. Why? Oh. They found the pen. Tossed him out just like that. Creeps! Well, at least they didn't hurt him more. My brave Wallace! "If you ever need a kidney, you've got one. No questions asked." ;D Awwww. Got him all wrapped up and bringing him something hot to drink. Oooh, he recognized a voice . . . no a phrase? Cool! He picked out one of the guys in the pictures! Got one of them, that's a start. Veronica. I'm not sure you can just go tasering anyone you think is a jerk. Well, Ok he really is a jerk, but still. OK, she's doing the detective thing . . . following him . . . sneaking in . . . creepy . . . Eeeeep! Lilly? A picture of Lilly? Boy, this is really feeling like the end of season 1. If Aaron pops up from the dead, I'm officially screaming. ;D (Last two acts will be posted later!)
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