|
Post by Lola m on May 26, 2007 12:42:00 GMT -5
I'm very glad the show ended on such a strong note. The last two episodes harkened back to what this show does best: force protagonists to wander into grayer territory than they would prefer, while hoping the end justifies the means. That's Veronica Mars in a nutshell. Exactly, my friend, exactly! No, you're right. It was given a chance. Not the best venue/channel for the show it was, not always promoted as it should have been, and so forth. But given the longest run possible for the circumstances? Yeah. Yeah, I've always tended toward those shows that were never gonna be a blockbuster hit. Ones that were either cancelled virtually immediately (Firefly and Profit come to mind) or that stayed on the air and were critically acclaimed, but were never ratings giants (Buffy, Homicide: Life on the Street, etc.). Most recently, I've been mourning the premature death of Raines . . . Oh how I wish for a system that would be more flexible and allow for smaller audienced "niche" shows to flourish. Or, you know, for a more accurate accounting for true audience that would show my tastes to be more acceptable than they think. Or, even more you know, for more people to genuinely discover and see the excellence that I have found. **huggles** ;D
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on May 26, 2007 12:43:59 GMT -5
I loved this episode... well really both, but the finale was awesome. I loved how they brought Veronica back full circle... I loved how the characters all showed who they were, that by the end of the episode everyone has had experiences but people are still who they are: Weevil: Not an evil man, but still a crook. Loyal to Veronica and there for her, but still holding onto that card reader as a means for a profit. Mac: gal-pal extroidinaire; loyal to V and full of good "see thru you" advice without cramming it down V's throat. She knows how to lay things out for her and let Veronica put it together for herself.. which is what Veronica does best. Keith: Keith is still Keith and will do anything for his daughter, including sacraficing a career. I never wanted him as a sheriff anyway. I really wanted to see Veronica and Keith butt heads in a next season with him as sheriff and her doing all the things he taught her to do so well. How can you fault her, Keith, she idolizes you and your ideals. How many felonies did you commit in the name of good? Keith Mars PI, the private avenger is a much more suitable profession for you. You can't perform nearly as much good in the world being hampered by trivialities like the law. Logan: Logan will never change. But you know what Veronica, he's always there for you... and we saw him really try. Some may despise him, some may be disgusted by him, but the goodness that is in Logan, that is left, is there becasue of Veronica. He tries in his way to be loyal to her. And really, as that final scene with him showed and contrasted to Piz.. .well neither one of them was "right." Piz: Piz is always the good guy, but if there was ever a need to stand up and back a guy off, and let it become physical if the other guy presses it, it was that scene at the cafeteria table. I wanted him, if not to "Logan" the guy's ass, then at least press the other guy into throwing the first punch and then beat him to a pulp. Call me a neandertal, but really, sometimes you have to be not afraid to go wherever you need to go. Even if it's to the county jail on a misdemeaner charge of assault. Piz and Veronica will never work in the end. Veronica understands the need of doing what you need to do, not what is civil. But also, not to be too harsh on him, he was protecting Veronica as best he could. I still give him friend points. He tried to do what he thought was the right thing. Wallace: noble and willing to sacrafice for his friend Veronica. In the end, it's a shame that there isn't a romantic spark between Wallace and Veronica. Because, really, as he has matured, he is the perfect blend of wimpy but lovable Piz and Logan "point me in a direction and I will go off half-cocked for you" Echolls. Yep, yep, yeppers! I love my VM characters, warts and all. Excellent point about what stayed the same but also what changed - the circle of people that Veronica has now.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on May 26, 2007 12:49:39 GMT -5
Oh I loved it! It was so . . . . depressing. And I mean that in a good way. Really. I'm actually not joking. I loved the . . . bitterness of it. I gotta say, that Sue has a point: I was totally engaged in it, and there with the participants at every twist, bleeding with all of them, and worrying about all of them. But knowing that it was a SERIES ender instead of a mere season-ender made it a real bitter brew to swallow. Oh, yeah. As a series ender? Definitely smacked you right in the face with all those "oh no, there must be more" feelings. I take heart in the other aspect that you and Vlad mentioned. The circle of people that Veronica now has. And Veronica and Keith always having each other. And, frankly, the people that Logan has too. Because angry as she is now, you know that Veronica will be there if the chips are down. Ahem. I mean, yes. Yes I would love to see what's next. **nods** He's so broken still. And yet, even with a crack running through him, he still also has that irrepressible . . . joy inside. You see it in his grin. So, I have hope for him as well.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on May 26, 2007 12:53:44 GMT -5
OK, I thought these two episodes brought me back to the Veronica Mars that I loved and looked foward too every week! They were 2 of the best episodes of the season for me. And quite frankly this would have been one completely AWESOME story arc to have focused on this year instead of the whole dean murder. Veronica trying to figure out who the Castle were, and who was behind the vid. They could have started this arc 6 episodes into the season and had me wishing every night was Tuesday night.I am sort of pissed that I had to sit through the whole who murdered the dean arc, and RT throws this at me the last 2 episodes. This could have been strung out for at least 10 episodes if not an entire season. I am getting more pissed the more I think about it. Loved Wallace trying to help V. Sticking by his BFF no matter what. Throwing away any chance of joining The Castle to help V take them down, completely sums up their relationship. Perfect. Loved Logan kicking the shit out of the asshole at the end. Showing Veronica, hey I am who I am , anyone fucks with you I beat the hell out of them. Whether you are my girl or not. Perfect. Hated that there are so many question left unanswered. Kieth/Vinnie could have been a great storyline if they had started it about 4 episodes ago. Does Weevil use the card maker? Does Mac end up with Dick? ROFL God I wished these last 2 episodes had sucked so I would not miss this show so much. Eetah to the red. Everything introduced in these last 3 episodes was far, far more interesting than the two mini-arcs this season. Having all the regulars and semi-regulars appear also really helped. I don't know anything about the budget of the show, but surely there was a way of shifting money around to allow for all the regulars to appear more frequently, because it's when they all interact that the show really shines. I can't agree about Logan beating up the guy, though, unless you mean it was great in a storytelling way. It seemed too much like he was turning into Aaron (ref. Aaron beating up Trina's asshole boyfriend). Particularly since we see him do it twice in a row. How long is it until he accidentally kills some one? I think we're meant to see the danger of him turning into Aaron, in some respects. A not unrealistic potential, unfortunately. And yet, we've also seen other side of him and influences in his life that could him not go down that path. We just don't know yet how he'll turn out.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on May 26, 2007 12:54:16 GMT -5
Yeah, where did that come from? Did he learn that from his dad? Some one may have to pay, but that doesn't mean that you should be the one to dole out the punishment. It's rather shocking that he says that, but isn't that the attitude Veronica also has, to a certain extent? Yep.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on May 26, 2007 12:55:18 GMT -5
Huh. I guess I can understand not liking Logan beating up the guy...but to me that doesn't make him Aaron; it makes him Spike. Meaning, Aaron was a calculating narcissist; even in the beating up of Trina's boyfriend, it was because he touched what was Aaron's. It's OK if HE hits his kids, because they are his. It is not OK if someone else does. Whereas Logan, to borrow a phrase, goes in "all fists and fangs" to defend those he cares about. Aaron never cared about anyone but Aaron. Logan even cares about Dick, and that says something. Does it means he's "good"? No, not in the conventional sense. But he's not a monster and he's not a narcisstist. He just lacks sense and self-preservation. Excellent distinction.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on May 26, 2007 12:56:20 GMT -5
Huh. I guess I can understand not liking Logan beating up the guy...but to me that doesn't make him Aaron; it makes him Spike. Meaning, Aaron was a calculating narcissist; even in the beating up of Trina's boyfriend, it was because he touched what was Aaron's. It's OK if HE hits his kids, because they are his. It is not OK if someone else does. Whereas Logan, to borrow a phrase, goes in "all fists and fangs" to defend those he cares about. Aaron never cared about anyone but Aaron. Logan even cares about Dick, and that says something. Does it means he's "good"? No, not in the conventional sense. But he's not a monster and he's not a narcisstist. He just lacks sense and self-preservation. I agree that Logan beating up Piz and the guy at the end while defending Veronica doesn't make him Aaron. I think he's really trying and has come a long way from the guy who set up the bum fight in the first season. Loving Veronica has a lot to do with how far he's come. He's learned a lot and has grown. It's hard to shed your upbringing, and I think there is a certain sense of entitlement and being above the law still left in Logan, and Dick. But that doesn't make them monsters. But striking out before you're sure of the truth of what's going on, as in Piz's case is still wrong. And I think Logan's anger and jealousy over Piz and Veronica being together played a part in why he struck out at Piz so quickly and brutally. Logan's apology to Piz somewhat redeemed him. But you know what they say - talk is cheap. You can say sorry till the cows come home, but it don't mean nothing if you keep doing the same wrong thing over and over... **nods to this too**
|
|
|
Post by leftylady on May 29, 2007 18:34:52 GMT -5
Not only that , he did apologize to Veronica and Piz for the fight, which is something Aaron would not have done. Logan did not ever apologize for being who he is , just for what he had done. Word. I'm with Lola, I really liked this ending. I also really loved Not Fade Away...which is what this reminded me of (Sue? Karen? Someone else suggested this and that's exactly right.) I like the ambiguity, and think it's really brave to not end with everything tied up in a bow...except character continuity. Veronica is Veronica, Logan is Logan, Keith is Keith, Wallace is Wallace, Weevil is Weevil. Not that they haven't changed, but in essence, they are who they always were. Oh there is so much more to say...the parallels between Logan and Veronica, who are soulmates in the weirdest possible way. (Anyone looking at Veronica to be a "good influence" on Logan is barking up the wrong tree; the truth is, they are both more than a little amoral and fucked up, which is perfect in noir 'verse and means that involvement outside that noir construct is doomed to fail.) Keith, the good man in a bad town. Wallace, the heart and integrity Veronica needs to keep close. Weevil, so easily coded as the "gangster with the heart of gold" but so much more complex than that...a man who knows he's in a bad town, and will do what's "good" both for himself and those he lets in, even if it means he is part of the corruption. So excellent. Wow, good thoughts, Erin. I'm behind on reading the posts and now on posting my own. I loved your comments here and they serve well as an entryway for adding my thoughts. I was a bit dismayed at the end of my viewing, but with further thought am more satisfied with the ending if it is to be a "series finale" indeed. I can see your NFA thoughts and the rain and darkness at the end of both NFA and TBIB. They were both very noir. However, my initial reaction at seeing Veronica walk off was more an emotional callback to "Becoming". Buffy & Veronica with their world's falling apart. Both walking off. Trouble with the parent - V causing Keith's legal / election problems and B arguing with Joyce & being told if you leave dont return. All the anguish over Logan's actions here (and possible consequences) vs B dealing with Angelus and anguish over having to kill Angel just when she got him back. I loved your "fists and fangs" Logan, Erin. From "psychotic jackass" of the pilot to this at the end. True that all the main characters we love are still true to themselves. I wish all season had been like this. running out of computer time so will finish now (maybe more later) leftylady
|
|
|
Post by Michelle on May 30, 2007 8:52:30 GMT -5
Word. I'm with Lola, I really liked this ending. I also really loved Not Fade Away...which is what this reminded me of (Sue? Karen? Someone else suggested this and that's exactly right.) I like the ambiguity, and think it's really brave to not end with everything tied up in a bow...except character continuity. Veronica is Veronica, Logan is Logan, Keith is Keith, Wallace is Wallace, Weevil is Weevil. Not that they haven't changed, but in essence, they are who they always were. Oh there is so much more to say...the parallels between Logan and Veronica, who are soulmates in the weirdest possible way. (Anyone looking at Veronica to be a "good influence" on Logan is barking up the wrong tree; the truth is, they are both more than a little amoral and fucked up, which is perfect in noir 'verse and means that involvement outside that noir construct is doomed to fail.) Keith, the good man in a bad town. Wallace, the heart and integrity Veronica needs to keep close. Weevil, so easily coded as the "gangster with the heart of gold" but so much more complex than that...a man who knows he's in a bad town, and will do what's "good" both for himself and those he lets in, even if it means he is part of the corruption. So excellent. Wow, good thoughts, Erin. I'm behind on reading the posts and now on posting my own. I loved your comments here and they serve well as an entryway for adding my thoughts. I was a bit dismayed at the end of my viewing, but with further thought am more satisfied with the ending if it is to be a "series finale" indeed. I can see your NFA thoughts and the rain and darkness at the end of both NFA and TBIB. They were both very noir. However, my initial reaction at seeing Veronica walk off was more an emotional callback to "Becoming". Buffy & Veronica with their world's falling apart. Both walking off. Trouble with the parent - V causing Keith's legal / election problems and B arguing with Joyce & being told if you leave dont return. All the anguish over Logan's actions here (and possible consequences) vs B dealing with Angelus and anguish over having to kill Angel just when she got him back. I loved your "fists and fangs" Logan, Erin. From "psychotic jackass" of the pilot to this at the end. True that all the main characters we love are still true to themselves. I wish all season had been like this. running out of computer time so will finish now (maybe more later) leftylady Great analogy, Lefty! I watched a few minutes of Becoming this morning, so I can see where you're coming from. The VM finale was awash in despair, and is very Jossian in that respect.
|
|
|
Post by leftylady on May 31, 2007 18:04:30 GMT -5
Wow, good thoughts, Erin. I'm behind on reading the posts and now on posting my own. I loved your comments here and they serve well as an entryway for adding my thoughts. I was a bit dismayed at the end of my viewing, but with further thought am more satisfied with the ending if it is to be a "series finale" indeed. I can see your NFA thoughts and the rain and darkness at the end of both NFA and TBIB. They were both very noir. However, my initial reaction at seeing Veronica walk off was more an emotional callback to "Becoming". Buffy & Veronica with their world's falling apart. Both walking off. Trouble with the parent - V causing Keith's legal / election problems and B arguing with Joyce & being told if you leave dont return. All the anguish over Logan's actions here (and possible consequences) vs B dealing with Angelus and anguish over having to kill Angel just when she got him back. I loved your "fists and fangs" Logan, Erin. From "psychotic jackass" of the pilot to this at the end. True that all the main characters we love are still true to themselves. I wish all season had been like this. running out of computer time so will finish now (maybe more later) leftylady Great analogy, Lefty! I watched a few minutes of Becoming this morning, so I can see where you're coming from. The VM finale was awash in despair, and is very Jossian in that respect. Thanks, Fotada. It was very Jossian and very classic VM too.
|
|
|
Post by leftylady on May 31, 2007 18:17:46 GMT -5
[snipped] Oh there is so much more to say...the parallels between Logan and Veronica, who are soulmates in the weirdest possible way. (Anyone looking at Veronica to be a "good influence" on Logan is barking up the wrong tree; the truth is, they are both more than a little amoral and fucked up, which is perfect in noir 'verse and means that involvement outside that noir construct is doomed to fail.) Keith, the good man in a bad town. Wallace, the heart and integrity Veronica needs to keep close. Weevil, so easily coded as the "gangster with the heart of gold" but so much more complex than that...a man who knows he's in a bad town, and will do what's "good" both for himself and those he lets in, even if it means he is part of the corruption. So excellent. I so agree with the Logan / Veronica noir soulmates. [And Vlad's comments before that Piz and Veronica would never work out in the longrun.] Run, Piz, run. You're much too sweet and innocent for her when The Bitch is Back. Mr. Nice Guy/Mr. Normal won't work for V just as a "civilian" normal guy would never work for Buffy. leftylady
|
|
|
Post by leftylady on Jul 20, 2007 17:03:48 GMT -5
Thanks to Sara's kind linkage to an ASH interview at ifmagazine.com I stumbled onto a January interview with Kristin Bell that included her thoughts on the appropriate ending for VM. Looking back now that it's over, we got what she hoped for: www.ifmagazine.com/feature.asp?article=1876"Exclusive Interview: KRISTEN BELL ON VERONICA MARS & SARAH MICHELLE GELLAR Star on the end of the series, movies, and wanting BUFFY ----------------------------------------------------------------- By SEAN ELLIOTT, Senior Editor Published 1/30/2007 With the CW Network announcing that the last five episodes of VERONICA MARS this season are going to be stand-alone tales, fans are starting to worry that their favorite show is headed for cancellation. It seems that not even the lead actress herself is in the loop as to the fate of the series. Nonetheless, iF MAGAZINE got a chance to catch up with Kristen Bell at the CW winter TCAS and ask what she expects for the end of the series whenever it may come, and how she would feel about BUFFY’s Sarah Michelle Gellar guest spotting on the show. ------------------------------------------------------------------- iF MAGAZINE: VERONICA MARS both your character and the show have come a long way in three seasons, if you had to choose an end point what would it be? KRISTEN BELL: To end? I don’t know that I would want VERONICA to end. I wouldn’t want an ending with anything conclusive. I think Veronica is all about risk taking and keeping doors open and it’s all about living the moment, so I would never want to conclude her. I would want the ending to stay open to everything she could possibly do and knowing there is so much ahead of her that no one will know [where she's going]. iF: The character of Veronica has always been about her brains, so maybe there’s no real way to end it? BELL: I agree, and that description may sound wistful, but I think it's very true. I would never want the end to be, “and now she’s settled.” That’s not what you do in life. iF: As young as the character started and the abilities she has, it seems that it's just onwards and upwards? BELL: Yeah. I very much agree. " leftylady
|
|