|
Post by Queen E on Jun 21, 2004 21:12:18 GMT -5
So, where can these scenes be seen? Julia, who figures if they were on the DVD Anna would have told me about them, as she's the one whose got the commentary tracks memorized Actually, they are on the DVD; on the fourth disc under "Special Features." At least 2 that I can recall from the pilot, one delightful one from "Our Mrs. Reynolds" and I am blanking on the others (weary-brained).
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Jun 21, 2004 21:19:57 GMT -5
And again with the brain-sharing (see above). Repetitive, yes. I was having this whole thing about the entire season being about who you can trust, and learning to trust and yadda yadda, but I didn't want to bring in and possibly ruin plot stuff for people who haven't seen it yet. . . .
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Jun 21, 2004 21:26:09 GMT -5
Repetitive, yes. I was having this whole thing about the entire season being about who you can trust, and learning to trust and yadda yadda, but I didn't want to bring in and possibly ruin plot stuff for people who haven't seen it yet. . . . Not sure that ruins plot stuff; who you can trust, learning to trust, etc, is one of capital T themes in all three of his shows. Since most of us here have viewed Buffy and Angel, there are things we'd go into Firefly expecting: gallows humor, trust issues, father problems, and blended families. Notice, too, how Mal, at the dinner table, is really set up as rather the Dad of them: sitting at the head of the table, watching out for Kaylee, telling Jayne to leave.
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Jun 21, 2004 21:31:48 GMT -5
Not sure that ruins plot stuff; who you can trust, learning to trust, etc, is one of capital T themes in all three of his shows. Since most of us here have viewed Buffy and Angel, there are things we'd go into Firefly expecting: gallows humor, trust issues, father problems, and blended families. Notice, too, how Mal, at the dinner table, is really set up as rather the Dad of them: sitting at the head of the table, watching out for Kaylee, telling Jayne to leave. All true. I just had a bunch of examples, and then decided not to use them, since I didn't wanna spoil it. Although we've been talking about it for a year, on and off, so it's pretty well spoiled anyway. Well, Mal is the father, Book is "grandfather" (repeatedly), Kaylee is "little sister", Jayne is the older brother - where do the others fit in? I see Inara more as big sister than mother. . .Zoe could be mom, but that makes that whole Mal-Zoe-Wash dynamic all the more complicated.
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jun 21, 2004 21:33:00 GMT -5
Actually, they are on the DVD; on the fourth disc under "Special Features." At least 2 that I can recall from the pilot, one delightful one from "Our Mrs. Reynolds" and I am blanking on the others (weary-brained). Oh, good, something else to look forward to. Julia, who looks forward, now, to going to sleep soon.
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Jun 22, 2004 3:39:15 GMT -5
Hi all!
Great discussion so far. Although I find it is hard to discuss the episode without referring to part 2. (And let me tell you, it was hard to stop watching at "Huh." Rat-bastard Joss.)
So, for something a little different ...
I wanted to have the opening theme song in this thread for reference, since I think it is relevant to any discussion about Captain Tight-pants. Also: Joss wrote it, so it can be considered as significant as any given line of dialog. The man does love his layers.
Take my love, take my land, Take me where I cannot stand. I don’t care, I’m still free. You can’t take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black, Tell them I ain’t comin’ back. Burn the land and boil the sea. You can’t take the sky from me.
There’s no place I can be Since I found Serenity. But you can’t take the sky from me . . .
Speculation: To me, a sky implies being planet-bound. If you are actually in space, wouldn’t that be - space? I think Joss does distinguish the two, because the phrase “take me out to the black” implies the emptiness of space to me, as opposed to the sky. So is the whole thing a conflicted longing for a planet-bound home? The final (unfinished) verse seems to imply that. Serenity is the name of both the ship and the battle in which Mal lost his faith and himself. Interpretation: he can’t find a true home because of the battle and the constantly moving ship, but … he still has his memory or ideal of home.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Also, these are phrases of atrocities and apathy and destruction and stubbornness set to laid back cowboy music. Heh. Layers and layers.
<edit>Gah! I just had another thought and wanted to write it in before it went away. Another possible interpretation is much bleaker: the scene of the sky of Serenity filled with deadly Alliance ships was what broke Mal. It could be interpreted that he can't let go of that image and it sets him free from caring about ANYTHING. Another 3am post. Damn Joss.
Linda, who hasn't caught up in the main thread, but just wanted to show her support of the weekly watchings.
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Jun 22, 2004 3:58:13 GMT -5
Hi again!
One more speculation / question:
The name of the Alliance ship was “Dortmunder.” I think this is a deliberate allusion to Donald E. Westlake’s John Dortmunder (one of my favorite fictional characters of all time).
Dortmunder is the protagonist of a series of extremely funny crime caper novels. He is an intelligent (perhaps brilliant), if uneducated lowlife thief who specializes in planning the intricate, difficult jobs that seem impossible to anyone else. In between the big jobs, he will take on a little breaking and entering to keep food on the table. (He met his significant other when she caught him shoplifting from the grocery store in which she worked.) What makes the character so much fun to follow, however, is that his luck is very, very, bad. We’ve all seen stories where the success of a plan is dependent on some very unlikely good luck. Well, Dortmunder’s plans (or even the simplest burglary) always seem to fail due to very unlikely bad luck. Example: getting the authorities and the crime underworld in a twist because the very gaudy piece of costume jewelry he lifted from an ordinary store was a REAL ruby ring. And the funniest thing is: Dortmunder keeps going and comes up with another plan. Sometimes just to get paid and sometimes out of sheer ornery stubbornness.
This sounds very much like Mal. But what is the significance of the Alliance ship being named Dortmunder?
Or am I missing some other reference? Or is it just a name that they pulled out of a hat? (And, BTW, according to the DVD commentary: hat-wearing is a sign of being a bad guy. Just saying.)
Linda, not yet caught up on the main board: bad, bad, bad ...
|
|
|
Post by Cal on Jun 22, 2004 4:30:55 GMT -5
I watched Firefly last night, but it was too late for me when the discussion began.
Mal and Zoe have a strong relationship. You see that from the outset. They trust each other completely.
Kaylee is most definitely the heart of the group. Everyone loves her.
Jayne....well, Jayne is just Jayne. I loved this character from the start. Even if he doesn't always do the right thing, there's just something about him.
|
|
|
Post by Cal on Jun 22, 2004 4:35:41 GMT -5
If you guys have a chance, watch the scenes deleted from the pilot; they provide a wealth of information about the Battle of Serenity Valley. Honestly, you can see Mal's faith dying as he watches the Alliance ships land, but to find out what happened afterwards, you can see how difficult it would be for him to believe in anything again. Yes, you're right Erin.
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jun 22, 2004 5:01:10 GMT -5
Perhaps since you last visited, Barba, this site also has parts 1 and 2 of the *aired* pilot, excellent quality. I'm downloading them now. It also has *4* blooper segments--dunno if cut parts of Serenity are there or not, or just on the DVD.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jun 22, 2004 6:00:12 GMT -5
Hi all! Great discussion so far. Although I find it is hard to discuss the episode without referring to part 2. (And let me tell you, it was hard to stop watching at "Huh." Rat-bastard Joss.) So, for something a little different ... I wanted to have the opening theme song in this thread for reference, since I think it is relevant to any discussion about Captain Tight-pants. Also: Joss wrote it, so it can be considered as significant as any given line of dialog. The man does love his layers. Take my love, take my land, Take me where I cannot stand. I don’t care, I’m still free. You can’t take the sky from me. Take me out to the black, Tell them I ain’t comin’ back. Burn the land and boil the sea. You can’t take the sky from me. There’s no place I can be Since I found Serenity. But you can’t take the sky from me . . . Speculation: To me, a sky implies being planet-bound. If you are actually in space, wouldn’t that be - space? I think Joss does distinguish the two, because the phrase “take me out to the black” implies the emptiness of space to me, as opposed to the sky. So is the whole thing a conflicted longing for a planet-bound home? The final (unfinished) verse seems to imply that. Serenity is the name of both the ship and the battle in which Mal lost his faith and himself. Interpretation: he can’t find a true home because of the battle and the constantly moving ship, but … he still has his memory or ideal of home. Thoughts? Also, these are phrases of atrocities and apathy and destruction and stubbornness set to laid back cowboy music. Heh. Layers and layers. Linda, who hasn't caught up in the main thread, but just wanted to show her support of the weekly watchings. Oh yeah, the song. When I got to the part on the DVD where the theme was playing for the first time, I just jotted in my notes "that's Mal". Lola
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jun 22, 2004 8:27:34 GMT -5
Hi all! Great discussion so far. Although I find it is hard to discuss the episode without referring to part 2. (And let me tell you, it was hard to stop watching at "Huh." Rat-bastard Joss.) So, for something a little different ... I wanted to have the opening theme song in this thread for reference, since I think it is relevant to any discussion about Captain Tight-pants. Also: Joss wrote it, so it can be considered as significant as any given line of dialog. The man does love his layers. Take my love, take my land, Take me where I cannot stand. I don’t care, I’m still free. You can’t take the sky from me. Take me out to the black, Tell them I ain’t comin’ back. Burn the land and boil the sea. You can’t take the sky from me. There’s no place I can be Since I found Serenity. But you can’t take the sky from me . . . Speculation: To me, a sky implies being planet-bound. If you are actually in space, wouldn’t that be - space? I think Joss does distinguish the two, because the phrase “take me out to the black” implies the emptiness of space to me, as opposed to the sky. So is the whole thing a conflicted longing for a planet-bound home? The final (unfinished) verse seems to imply that. Serenity is the name of both the ship and the battle in which Mal lost his faith and himself. Interpretation: he can’t find a true home because of the battle and the constantly moving ship, but … he still has his memory or ideal of home. Thoughts? Thoughts? Also, these are phrases of atrocities and apathy and destruction and stubbornness set to laid back cowboy music. Heh. Layers and layers. <edit>Gah! I just had another thought and wanted to write it in before it went away. Another possible interpretation is much bleaker: the scene of the sky of Serenity filled with deadly Alliance ships was what broke Mal. It could be interpreted that he can't let go of that image and it sets him free from caring about ANYTHING. Another 3am post. Damn Joss.Linda, who hasn't caught up in the main thread, but just wanted to show her support of the weekly watchings. I think, maybe, the way the sky is used here means the interface between planetside and spaceside, and therefore the way out of the hopeless situation described in the first line. Julia, who was going to write more but the phrase "the way out" got me back to the alley again
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jun 22, 2004 10:28:31 GMT -5
I always watch for scene cuts - 'cuz I think that they are often used to point us toward interesting parallels in the Jossverse. Things we are meant to compare.
At one point, after Mal was talking to, I think, Wash about meeting back up with Inara, Mal walks away muttering: "somebody on this boat has to make an honest living". Then we cut right to Inara in bed with a client.
So I'm wondering. Is this just a cool visual? Is it only there to help us realize that the job of a complanion is an honorable/impressive one? Or is it also supposed to point out to us that this is really Mal's opinion of Inara? Regardless of the way he snipes at and insults her at other times.
Lola
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jun 22, 2004 10:38:37 GMT -5
* Interesting. The line that Inara reacts to internally (the sudden shot of her looking away, kind of sad/solemn - then back to smiling at him; in other words she didn't really do this physically, it's how she was reacting inside) is the one where her client says he'd never leave the capital city/inner planets. * Loved her momentary look of annoyance when the client says the thing about her clock running fast to cheat clients out of money. She's not all hurt or whatever, she just lets the mask slip for a moment to show him that this is crass, uncouth behavior. Also loved her smooth slide from the pillows and drapes of her bedroom area into the pilot area to begin take off. (I think Rae mentioned this last night.) * Another clever scene cut. When Mal makes Jayne leave the dinner table and then he's asked "what's his (meaning Jayne) job?". Mal says "public relations". And then the scene jumps to Inara. Whose job sort of is public relations, in a way. Lola Also noticed last night that there are several scenes in which we are very obviously shown that Mal is the one with the authority and ability to control Jayne.
|
|
|
Post by Matthew on Jun 22, 2004 10:42:17 GMT -5
Y'all ROCK! You have no idea how much I wanted this, originally, when I was watching Firefly.. and I didn't even know I wanted it!!
General comments: Rae-Rae: Mal is always gonna be a soldier: a very, VERY unconventional one, but hey, rebels often are, no?
And (not directly adressed: will go back later and reply at length)
There is ominousness in the relationship between Wash and Zoe (durnit, needs an umlaut) even in the first episode.. due to the fact that Zoe is along with Mal because she was at loose ends after the battle.. and kept the world she knew, even if it was going through drastic changes.
I soo love the speech habits.. "Didn't Patience shoot you?" "Everyone's makin' a fuss..."
The series itself is meant to recall America after the War Between the States: expat confederates running to the fringes, some still wanted, some wanting to forget: primitive life that shaped its own rules. The imagery captures it beautifully: the attire, everything, just flows so organically from that premise that Mal highlights that they just dump the settlers down on a rock. A tractor may be a tool you could use to plow more land than a horse, in a day, but tractors don't do so well making little baby tractors(good lord, imagine, if you will, the "Heimlich, with stripes!" if they did... huh. ).
Beautiful way to tell human stories of ambiguity and compromise. I so hope that Serenity revives this show..
And I LOVE this idea, when put into practice! some kinks, but they will get worked out, no doubt.
-Matthew, who will try to post more on this later, and is grateful to y'all for giving him the excuse and the motivation to watch Firefly as if for the first time.
Anybody read Resnick's Santiago?
|
|