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Post by TechnoSlut on Jun 14, 2004 12:38:18 GMT -5
Written by: Drew Z. Greenberg Directed by: Michael Grossman Air date: 11/8/02
A battle with cattle dealers leaves Book in dire need of Simon's aid. Too bad the doctor---and his sister---is out of reach, having been abducted by hillbillies looking for a healer.
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Post by Nickim on Jul 26, 2004 15:54:53 GMT -5
I know it's a little early, but I won't be able to post later.
"Safe" just reminds us again and again that none of us are ever truly safe. As we saw last week, appearances are deceiving. Simon and River were raised by supposedly loving parents, yet those same parents won't sacrifice their safety and comfort to help their own daughter. We know that River and Simon are on the run and even Young River says, "We'll never make it back to out platoon." Her voice definitely "carries"--it carries all the way into the future. They'll never get to go home. They are, according to River, "lost in the woods" with "no one coming for" us.
Emotional safety is also hard to find. Inara says Kaylee doesn't "do a very good job of hiding [her] interest." We see that Kaylee's feelings aren't safe. She's going to get hurt, cause Simon's "being mean. If that's what you think of this life, then you can't think much of them that chose it". Sadly, we often hide our feelings from others to keep from being hurt.
River, like the cattle, sees 'sky and remembers what she was' when she dances. (Probably my favorite scene in the whole series.) This is the REAL River, the person she should be, not the frightened girl we usually see.
The settlers feel safer when they find a doctor. The settlers even seem to have some concern for River. "Place like this might be good for your sister. Safe. Quiet." Yet, later we see it's anything but those things for River. The settlers don't feel so safe when they find out that River's "a witch."
When they approach the Alliance ship Walsh asks Mal, "You sure this is where you wanta be?" He knows it's not a safe place for the crew of the Serenity. But, as we saw last week, appearances can be deceiving. The Alliance save Book's life. Who is Book? Why does he have an indent-card that allows such perks? Will we ever know?
Mal appears to abandon Simon and River, but who really thought that's how it would end? "Daddy" did come for them, the daddy of their new family.
The crew feel safer on Serenity, but even there, safety is just an illusion. There are always dangers lurking. A simple cattle purchase leads to Book being shot.
Fear can cause humans to behave in horrible ways to our fellow humans. We'll kill someone because they look different or they live on the other side of any imaginary line or we think it's "God's will. Safety is an illusion, none of us are truly safe, there are just too many things out there in the big, bad universe that can hurt us. The best we can hope for is to treat everyone the way we want to be treated. Don't say mean things and don't do mean things. Make others feel safe.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 26, 2004 19:53:58 GMT -5
I know it's a little early, but I won't be able to post later. "Safe" just reminds us again and again that none of us are ever truly safe. As we saw last week, appearances are deceiving. Simon and River were raised by supposedly loving parents, yet those same parents won't sacrifice their safety and comfort to help their own daughter. We know that River and Simon are on the run and even Young River says, "We'll never make it back to out platoon." Her voice definitely "carries"--it carries all the way into the future. They'll never get to go home. They are, according to River, "lost in the woods" with "no one coming for" us. Emotional safety is also hard to find. Inara says Kaylee doesn't "do a very good job of hiding [her] interest." We see that Kaylee's feelings aren't safe. She's going to get hurt, cause Simon's "being mean. If that's what you think of this life, then you can't think much of them that chose it". Sadly, we often hide our feelings from others to keep from being hurt. River, like the cattle, sees 'sky and remembers what she was' when she dances. (Probably my favorite scene in the whole series.) This is the REAL River, the person she should be, not the frightened girl we usually see. The settlers feel safer when they find a doctor. The settlers even seem to have some concern for River. "Place like this might be good for your sister. Safe. Quiet." Yet, later we see it's anything but those things for River. The settlers don't feel so safe when they find out that River's "a witch." When they approach the Alliance ship Walsh asks Mal, "You sure this is where you wanta be?" He knows it's not a safe place for the crew of the Serenity. But, as we saw last week, appearances can be deceiving. The Alliance save Book's life. Who is Book? Why does he have an indent-card that allows such perks? Will we ever know? Mal appears to abandon Simon and River, but who really thought that's how it would end? "Daddy" did come for them, the daddy of their new family. The crew feel safer on Serenity, but even there, safety is just an illusion. There are always dangers lurking. A simple cattle purchase leads to Book being shot. Fear can cause humans to behave in horrible ways to our fellow humans. We'll kill someone because they look different or they live on the other side of any imaginary line or we think it's "God's will. Safety is an illusion, none of us are truly safe, there are just too many things out there in the big, bad universe that can hurt us. The best we can hope for is to treat everyone the way we want to be treated. Don't say mean things and don't do mean things. Make others feel safe. Big eetah from me, Nicki. Over and over as I watched this episode I found myself noting instances of people looking for safety, defining things as safe or not, trying to keep themselves or others safe. The opening shot of the Tam estate shows the security fence outside and the lush, rich, comfortable home with the kids “safely” inside – while playing they are soldiers in the ongoing war. Dad arrives to play out the role of the “stern on the outside, but spoil the kids rotten” father, the protector who will keep his children safe – while giving us hints of the problems to come. His harsh “act” is a bit too real and the sentence “you will repay me by becoming a brilliant doctor” shows us he has already decided on the role young Simon is supposed to play later in life. And heaven help poor Simon when in the later scenes he steps outside that role. Simon makes the fatal error of questioning the “safe” society in which they are cocooned, pointing out the bizarre and disturbing elements in River’s letters from the government school, “did you even read these?” (no, Simon, something tells me they weren’t capable of reading the letters as you do because they don’t know and understand River the way you do). His mother’s response: “If they heard you talk like this at the hospital, it could affect your future”. And it seems like another example of a parent wanting to keep their child safe – to make sure his future is assured, he will have a good life. But the harsher truth is that while this is true to some extent, it is really their own safe position, socially and otherwise, that the Tams fear for. When Simon takes that final fatal step, visiting a black zone and, gasp, talking to people, Dad is quite willing to cut him off completely when he doesn’t immediately fall back in line. “Are you trying to destroy this family?” “I didn’t realize it would be so easy.” The Tam family was a much less safe place than Simon realized. So many other instances showing safety as an unattainable goal. The scene of happy Tam children being asked to give old dad a couple minutes' quiet cuts right to River and Simon definitely not giving new dad (Mal) the quiet he needs to keep the cattle from stampeding. River is certainly not safe from her own mental anguish – not yet safe from the things that the Alliance guys did to her. (Several nice comparisons of Mal to dad in this ep. I also like how in the hill folk village River says “Daddy will come and take us home” – well, real daddy isn’t gonna, but Mal does. And we learn pretty soon why Simon looks so bitter when she says this.) And of course Simon is continually trying to keep River safe, but like you’d try to keep a very small child safe. Stopping her from touching the “dirty and sharp” post holer (you know, it digs holes – for posts LOL). Or constantly running after her when she wanders off. Yes, she probably does need this kind of looking after, but she's not a little kid. Even tho’ her mind is cracked, she obviously can still sometimes sense and resent this treatment of her like an unruly 5 year old - “…dress me up like a gorramn doll!” And really, for all he is worried about her, it’s him that gets in trouble, gets kidnapped. She’s just pulled along with because she’s there. (The scene with her dancing is one of my favorite scenes, too. Such a nice, yet sad, reminder of the life she could have had if the govt doctors hadn't done what they did. And intercut with the shoot out just makes it that more chilling. Especially when she reacts to Book being shot.) The Alliance surely isn’t safe - or is it, depending on who you are? They're not safe when you’re more afraid of them than a gunshot. Not when you have to greet your rescuers with raised hands so they don’t shoot and make sure your papers are right to hand and you better have been to the right “checkpoints” lately. Not when you’re told that they aren’t going to help the mortally wounded preacher because: “We aren't an emergency facility, Captain. Our services aren't available simply to anyone.” Like you point out, with the right ident card, they are absolutely the safe harbor to head for. I am just itching with curiosity about that too! I'm hoping we'll get some answers in the movie, but I'm not holding my breath. ;D As you point out, the hill folk are the ones to actually use the word safe, and gosh – we saw how well that turned out. River even points out to Simon, when she is tied up and about to be set on fire, that helping her is why he isn’t safe either. “I took you away from there.” (Of course I don’t think Simon could have continued to live in a world that didn’t contain River. The moment when he joins her up there is just so . . . wow. That one gets me every time. I get the same lump in my throat there as when Buffy takes her sister’s place in jumping off the tower.) Nope. You’re never “safe”. Certainly not in this world that Joss has created. But, really, not in the real world either. Lola
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Post by Nickim on Jul 27, 2004 15:08:13 GMT -5
Looks like it's just the two of us. I totally with your thoughts about the Tam family. The parents are way more concerned about their "permanent record", their image than they are about their children. Does Young Simon say anything about wanting to be a doctor? I can't remember, but you're right, Lola, he has no choice.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 28, 2004 20:52:17 GMT -5
No, wait! I'm trying to catch up to the stuff I missed. . . .
Ahem.
So, apart from stuff others have noticed in a way cool way:
The big question for me, in this episode, was: Who the hell is Book? 'Nuff said.
The overprotectiveness of Simon with River, while it's maybe understandable, still bugs the hell out of me. I mean, it's one thing to worry when she's talking to strangers or is out of your sight, but the posthole digger thing, and the making her sit in the corner in the village infirmary just irritated.
Also - the snobbery wasn't good. I understand it's for the purposes of later character development, but it made me wonder, yet again, what Kaylee sees in him.
I absolutely love Kaylee's straightforwardness. She's not afraid to say what she means, not worried that people will think less of her because of it - if you're being an asshat, she calls you on it. Beautiful.
Simon (and possibly River) should have changed clothes before going into town. Probably they'd still have stuck out like a sore thumb, because how many new people do you get in town, but still. No need to appear to be tourists. Neither of them has much sense of self-preservation - River's excuse is better, though.
Another example of the "no sense of self-preservation": Saying "ignorance" to ignorant people? Doesn't usually help. Or get your sister unburned at the stake.
Inara is the only one who gives Mal anything like orders.
Great lines:
Zoe: Also? Your disreputable men are here.
Mal: Looks like we got her just in the nick of time. What's that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir.
Mal: Ain't we just?
"It never goes smooth. How come it never goes smooth?"
"That's good - you just lie there and be ironical."
"Yeah, but she's our witch - so cut her the hell down."
"You're on my crew. Why're we still talkin' about this?"
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Post by Linda on Jul 28, 2004 22:36:25 GMT -5
Hi guys! Nicki & Lola: I love both of your thoughts on the overarching theme of the show. Eetah. Eetah to Rachael's post, too! However, I did also want to add that Serenity is something perhaps more important than “safe” – it’s home. Even to the “tourists” (as Jayne calls them). Book actually says it. And I believe Simon feels it, from what I saw in the contrasting final scenes between Simon & his father and Simon & Mal. Simon’s father tells him when he bails him out: “I will not come for you [if you do this again]. Now are you coming home?” I think Sean Maher (sp?) beautifully conveys Simon’s realization that he no longer had a home. In answer to Simon’s question about why Mal came back for him, Mal says: “You’re on my crew. Why are we still talking about this?” I believe Simon realizes that now he *does* have a home. Here are a few of my other random thoughts: Thanks to the type of analysis I've been exposed to in S3 (and also due to watching the episodes in the proper order), I enjoyed this episode much more this time around than I did when I first saw it on Fox (ptui! WSSOTNM). Lemme start out by saying that I like Simon. However, I so totally agree with Mal when he tells Simon: “Your talent for alienating people is near-miraculous.” I actually think this was one of the major points of the show. The first shot after the credits: Simon steps in shit. First literally and then figuratively. He irritates Mal, he continues to treat River like a 3-year-old, he hurts Kaylee (sheesh - THAT's talent) and thereby irritates Inara. Oh, and he irritates Jayne just by being there. Yep, near miraculous. And he constantly makes the point of calling the settlers “kidnappers” – even to Doralee, who for the most part shows kind, gentle concern for everyone. You know, except for the demanding to kill River thing. I believe that Simon would have been completely content to live in his parents' world if it were not for River. But for her, he would do anything and everything. Except stop treating her like a child, apparently. However, this is so very Simon. He is afraid of the unknown and wants to protect River. River is *not* afraid of the unknown. (To me, this was illustrated in the scene in Bushwacked when they were outside Serenity, hiding out from the Alliance - River was happy and awed by the vastness of space and Simon couldn't bear to look at it.) She is the only thing that would get him to step outside into the unknown. River's strongest connections: Simon & Mal. I noticed that during the dancing scene, she stops not when Book is shot, but when Mal sees that Book is shot. I think it is Mal's worry that she senses, rather than Book's pain. But then Simon gets himself snatched. She chooses to follow Simon. Jayne. I have to laugh during the mini- Ariel foreshadowing when Jayne quickly returns the items he took from Simon and guiltily says “Glad you’re back.” I love Adam Baldwin’s delivery. Post holers are necessary tools for building fences. Fences are boundaries marking off safe zones. But fences & corrals are flimsy if you aren’t staying inside or going where they lead. Stepping out into the unknown requires a different kind of safe zone, a different kind of home. Like Serenity. And Mal and the crew. Linda, posting from work 'cause I only finished watching this morning as I was getting ready.
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Post by Nickim on Jul 29, 2004 7:42:14 GMT -5
Hi guys! Nicki & Lola: I love both of your thoughts on the overarching theme of the show. Eetah. Eetah to Rachael's post, too! However, I did also want to add that Serenity is something perhaps more important than “safe” – it’s home. Even to the “tourists” (as Jayne calls them). Book actually says it. And I believe Simon feels it, from what I saw in the contrasting final scenes between Simon & his father and Simon & Mal. Simon’s father tells him when he bails him out: “I will not come for you [if you do this again]. Now are you coming home?” I think Sean Maher (sp?) beautifully conveys Simon’s realization that he no longer had a home. In answer to Simon’s question about why Mal came back for him, Mal says: “You’re on my crew. Why are we still talking about this?” I believe Simon realizes that now he *does* have a home. Here are a few of my other random thoughts: Thanks to the type of analysis I've been exposed to in S3 (and also due to watching the episodes in the proper order), I enjoyed this episode much more this time around than I did when I first saw it on Fox (ptui! WSSOTNM). Lemme start out by saying that I like Simon. However, I so totally agree with Mal when he tells Simon: “Your talent for alienating people is near-miraculous.” I actually think this was one of the major points of the show. The first shot after the credits: Simon steps in shit. First literally and then figuratively. He irritates Mal, he continues to treat River like a 3-year-old, he hurts Kaylee (sheesh - THAT's talent) and thereby irritates Inara. Oh, and he irritates Jayne just by being there. Yep, near miraculous. And he constantly makes the point of calling the settlers “kidnappers” – even to Doralee, who for the most part shows kind, gentle concern for everyone. You know, except for the demanding to kill River thing. I believe that Simon would have been completely content to live in his parents' world if it were not for River. But for her, he would do anything and everything. Except stop treating her like a child, apparently. However, this is so very Simon. He is afraid of the unknown and wants to protect River. River is *not* afraid of the unknown. (To me, this was illustrated in the scene in Bushwacked when they were outside Serenity, hiding out from the Alliance - River was happy and awed by the vastness of space and Simon couldn't bear to look at it.) She is the only thing that would get him to step outside into the unknown. River's strongest connections: Simon & Mal. I noticed that during the dancing scene, she stops not when Book is shot, but when Mal sees that Book is shot. I think it is Mal's worry that she senses, rather than Book's pain. But then Simon gets himself snatched. She chooses to follow Simon. Jayne. I have to laugh during the mini- Ariel foreshadowing when Jayne quickly returns the items he took from Simon and guiltily says “Glad you’re back.” I love Adam Baldwin’s delivery. Post holers are necessary tools for building fences. Fences are boundaries marking off safe zones. But fences & corrals are flimsy if you aren’t staying inside or going where they lead. Stepping out into the unknown requires a different kind of safe zone, a different kind of home. Like Serenity. And Mal and the crew. Linda, posting from work 'cause I only finished watching this morning as I was getting ready. Great catches, Linda. Love how you pointed out the significance of Simon stepping in the cow pie. I was thinking it just showed how different he is from the rest of the crew--fancy shoes, etc.--totally out of place. Also, I noticed, too that River doesn't react to Book being shot. But, I didn't catch that it's Mal's reaction she senses. He really is "daddy" now, and later she knows he'll come for her. Also, the post holer, thanks for making sense of that little bit of Not Throwaway.
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Post by Nickim on Jul 29, 2004 9:40:06 GMT -5
Been thinking--usually a bad thing--about the line in the theme song "you can't take the sky from me." To me the "sky" seems to represent our true selves. Terrible things can be done to us, but we can still remain the same person inside. Not everyone who was abused as a child becomes a criminal later.
Ties in with River and the cattle "seeing the sky" and "remembering what they are". The cattle when freed remember how to behave as cattle. River remembers what her life was before the Alliance got ahold of her. She says she "remembers everything", but she has to suppress the good in order to suppress the bad. The Reavers have "lost the sky", so to speak. They've lost touch with their humanity, their true freedom. Serial rapists and killers never get enough--their enslaved by their twisted desires. Raping and killing don't set someone free. Just makes them a prisoner of their own cruelty.
This has probably already been stated and more clearly, but it just kinda hit me this morning.
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Post by William the Bloody on Jul 29, 2004 18:47:21 GMT -5
As Rachael said "Who the hell IS Book?"
To me, during the first run of this show, that very question was one of the largest I held. And if you all would like, I'll let you in on a little secret part of my theory. I don't know if this ... should be permissible, or if it is a "spoiler" because I am completely unspoiled for the movie. If you don't want to know what I discovered while the show was still airing then don't read beyond the next paragragh.
On the official Firefly website run by FOX, they had script pages and stuff available to look at... Now, I wondered at the time how they chose which script pages to post and why...and then I stumbled onto something.
In the typed up script for the pilot "Serenity", the scene where Simon is using the encyclopedia to review the battle on Hera ...the entry states: "The Independant Faction, with sizteen brigades and twenty air-tank squads, held the valley against Alliance forces for almost two months, until superior numbers and a briliant deep flank strategy by General Richard Wil --"
Now, I have a theory/had a theory that Book is this General , formerly of the Alliance. It makes so much sense. I believe that like Mal, he was horrified at the carnage of war...of perhaps how "his" side handled things... and that he left the military and joined the brotherhood that he did. It would explain his knowledge, his training, his fine mind... jsut everything...
Now, I have wavered on whether it is by circumstance or not that he is aboard Serenity. I have hatched several different conspiracy theories (many of them also utilizing Inara as some sort of Alliance spy or a neo Browncoat spy) on why Book and Inara are aboard that ship. But, considering the cooincidence Zoe's line actually being "Were not in there. The book, I mean." It's jsut so damn Joss-ian!
Vlad
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Post by Lola m on Jul 29, 2004 19:01:53 GMT -5
Wow, Rachael and Linda and Nicki! I've really been appreciating all the cool and interesting ideas about Simon and Kaylee and snobbishness and finding a home among the crew of Serenity.
IMHO, I think there are lots of obvious and not so obvious points being made about class differences and what they mean in this ep. We got a bunch in the last episode too, but where Shindig showed us the Serenity gang trying to fit into a "higher" class world, Safe shows us upper crust Simon being forced into the world of the Serenity crew. (Because I figure Kaylee and Jayne for sure, and probably Mal and Zoe and Wash to a lesser degree, originally came from isolated, hard-scrabble, outer planets like this one.)
Here's just a few examples I noticed:
* Mr. Tam tells young Simon "You think I'd let you work with something that's second rate? You're worth it."
* Guy on the planet sees Serenity and says "fancy vessel such as that", reminding us again (like with The Train Job) that there are levels below that occupied by our gang, who at least have their own "business" (illegal tho' it may be) and a measure of freedom.
* Another bit of common ground between Book and Inara is that, by virtue of their chosen professions, they are more able to "float" between the classes.
* Mal and Jayne and Zoe seem very familiar with handling the cattle. Learned from previous jobs, or do they have farming/ranching backgrounds?
* As was mentioned before, we have the very telling scene with Kaylee and Simon in the store. But I love the clever way it's done. Simon never knows, for example, that Kaylee was thinking of giving him the plate ("It's rich, you know?"). So he has no idea that he began his insult of her with his offhand comment of "They're asking money for this crap?". To then go on and call her precious ship "luh-suh" was the final straw.
* Eetah with Rachael on loving Kaylee's reaction. She just completely calls him on his behavior. He tries to backpedal, "I didn't mean . . " "Yeah. You did." Just said right straight out. Because he did mean it. And it never even crossed his mind how condescending that comment was.
* Comparing the dance River goes to with the one we saw in Shindig is a nice little comment on class made just through visuals.
* Love the little touches. Like how the hill folk tell Simon to "stand up straight" when they bring him into the village. Gotta look the part of a doctor, you know.
* Then of course, there is the whole example of the hill village. We can see that Simon is amazed that people actually live like this. Just the way he says "Has there been a . . . is there a sickness here?" So carefully choosing his words because he assumes there is some unusual, horrible event going on. And then the matter of fact response of Doralee: "Not especial. Just people get sick or injured. Mostly people heal on their own, but sometimes... " To his credit, Simon the doctor does just knuckle down and start helping people.
* To Joss's credit, he doesn't make the villagers some misty-eyed noble, simple folk whose poverty and isolation has made them better people. They are just who they are. Most of them trying their best, but also: kidnappers, superstitious, ignorant (not the smartest thing to say to them, true, but he is right), suspicious of the very strangers they stole to help them.
Lola
Can I just say I love the line: "Morbid and creepifying I got no problem with. Long as she does it quiet like."
Also, has anyone else noticed that Jayne likes to watch folks a lot? I mean part of it is 'cuz it amuses him, but it seems like he's also somehow . . . trying to figure out how he should be acting. Definitely takes a lot of cues from Mal. He often seems to be trying to act like he thinks Mal would or the way Mal would like. Not that he doesn't also challenge Mal a lot, but I think Jayne sees Mal as the kind of grown up criminal he'd like to be some day. You know what I mean?
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Post by Nickim on Jul 29, 2004 19:09:03 GMT -5
As Rachael said "Who the hell IS Book?" To me, during the first run of this show, that very question was one of the largest I held. And if you all would like, I'll let you in on a little secret part of my theory. I don't know if this ... should be permissible, or if it is a "spoiler" because I am completely unspoiled for the movie. If you don't want to know what I discovered while the show was still airing then don't read beyond the next paragragh. On the official Firefly website run by FOX, they had script pages and stuff available to look at... Now, I wondered at the time how they chose which script pages to post and why...and then I stumbled onto something. In the typed up script for the pilot "Serenity", the scene where Simon is using the encyclopedia to review the battle on Hera ...the entry states: "The Independant Faction, with sizteen brigades and twenty air-tank squads, held the valley against Alliance forces for almost two months, until superior numbers and a briliant deep flank strategy by General Richard Wil --" Now, I have a theory/had a theory that Book is this General , formerly of the Alliance. It makes so much sense. I believe that like Mal, he was horrified at the carnage of war...of perhaps how "his" side handled things... and that he left the military and joined the brotherhood that he did. It would explain his knowledge, his training, his fine mind... jsut everything... Now, I have wavered on whether it is by circumstance or not that he is aboard Serenity. I have hatched several different conspiracy theories (many of them also utilizing Inara as some sort of Alliance spy or a neo Browncoat spy) on why Book and Inara are aboard that ship. But, considering the cooincidence Zoe's line actually being "Were not in there. The book, I mean." It's jsut so damn Joss-ian! Vlad WOW. That would explain a LOT. Edit: And you just edited your post. I thought I was going crazy. AACK
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Post by William the Bloody on Jul 29, 2004 19:18:10 GMT -5
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Post by William the Bloody on Jul 29, 2004 19:19:41 GMT -5
WOW. That would explain a LOT. Edit: And you just edited your post. I thought I was going crazy. AACK Well you are! And it had nothing to do with me... Cute AACK, tho. Very insurancy duckish. Vlad
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Post by Nickim on Jul 29, 2004 19:29:46 GMT -5
Well you are! And it had nothing to do with me... Cute AACK, tho. Very insurancy duckish. Vlad Uh huh, sounds just like the wicked husband in Gaslight, "I don't know what you're talking about. You misplace things. Go lay down and rest."
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Post by William the Bloody on Jul 29, 2004 19:35:22 GMT -5
<snip> Also, has anyone else noticed that Jayne likes to watch folks a lot? I mean part of it is 'cuz it amuses him, but it seems like he's also somehow . . . trying to figure out how he should be acting. Definitely takes a lot of cues from Mal. He often seems to be trying to act like he thinks Mal would or the way Mal would like. Not that he doesn't also challenge Mal a lot, but I think Jayne sees Mal as the kind of grown up criminal he'd like to be some day. You know what I mean? <snip> YES! My take on this is that Jayne is sorta our Spike/Anya figure. In Buffy, both were always trying to figure out why peopel do what they do and develop a moral compass. Not only does this make for an interesting chartacter, it's also a subtle way for Joss to tell a moral story without actually preaching to us. He shows us flawed characters, but has even more flawed characters admiring the lesser flawed, for their good points. Mal's loyalty to his crew...that is somethign that he is trying to teach Jayne. And to my mind, theres no doubt about that. Mal IS teaching Jayne how to be a good man. He took Jayne on by necessity, but he would have gotten rid of him if he hadn't seen potential in the man. Witness the upcoming Arial... GAaahhh, it is jsut so hard to talk about this show! I think about any topic...start thinking in depth..on how the characters were growing...how much depth was there in a span of 15 eps and I want to wring the FOX execs necks all over again. Vlad
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