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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 15:38:50 GMT -5
DEBORAH says: "I don't understand, Spring. Are you saying that Spike's declaration that Buffy really didn't love him was a misunderstanding on his part?" No. I don't think Buffy loves Spike the way Spike wants her too. I am just saying that Buffy had come to a place in her life where she understood that she wasn't "completely baked" enough as a human being to really, truly, totally love anyone - and that she was leaving herself open to any and all possibilities - maybe the day will come when she truly totally wants to love another in a deep, adult, all-out way. Maybe it won't. Maybe it will be Angel. Maybe it won't. Maybe it could have been Spike. Maybe not. Maybe someone else. She just left it totally open, in my mind. I couldn't see where she gave Angel the go-ahead, and Spike the brush off. Angel learned the same thing Spike did - Buffy doesn't love him the way he wants her too, not at this point in her life. She is absolutely unwilling to committ. She says maybe someday, years from now, and maybe never. My point was that Buffy left both guys in basically the same place - in her heart, but with no certain future of any kind. Edited By Spring Summers at 5/21/2003 10:30:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 15:39:48 GMT -5
Looking at the finale again, I also believe that Buffy came down to the basement - to Spike - the second night to make love. If they did it the first night, then they didn't just play Parcheesi the second night. Even if you don't believe they did it the first night, it would be even more difficult to believe she went to the basement the second night just to let Spike hold her chastely. So............ Compare 'Angel and Buffy' versus 'Spike and Buffy' for really making love. In my version of the BtVS, 'Angel and Buffy' counts as once. That was easy. 'Spike and Buffy' counts as once if you only count the first or the second basement night, and twice if you count both nights. If you are angry because we didn't get to see them kiss and thus don't think they did anything except cram together on that small cot, then 'Spike and Buffy' only rates a zero. And why would you want to believe the worst for Spike? Of course, I don't think Angel has the least idea - yet - that the year before, Spike and Buffy lost count of how many times, how many places, how many ways, how many...well, you get the idea. I will be very fascinated to watch as Childe Spike's past relationship with Buffy unfolds to broody Sire Angel next season.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 15:40:41 GMT -5
Alexandra - Yes, it was hard to believe that, for three nights (counting the abandoned house as night #1), Spike & Buffy were going to sleep together with no shagging. It sort of defied all logic. That first night in the basement, like you, I wondered why Spike would make such a big deal about his pride and all, if they weren't going to have sex. But when we saw them, Buffy was in a night gown, and Spike was fully dressed. That second night in the basement though - knowing they both might die the next day . . . how could they not? I can just hear Spike now . . . "Don't I get a cookie? I gotta have something. I'm gonna face a million ubervamps tomorrow." And maybe that's what Buffy's smile at the end of the ep was all about? Remembering her glorious final session with Spike, thinking, as she saw what he had done to Sunnydale: "Yeah, that guy can cook!! I am a baked cookie now!" Edited By Spring Summers at 5/21/2003 10:23:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 15:41:47 GMT -5
I don't like it either. I think the last part is dead now though.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 15:42:24 GMT -5
Alexandra said: I will be very fascinated to watch as Childe Spike's past relationship with Buffy unfolds to broody Sire Angel next season. So will I be. First, I hope it DOES unfold, and second, I hope it is then laid aside and Buffy does not remain the 'unattainable' love for either of them. Spike and Angel should each find a nice non-slayer girl to love who loves him back and doesn't make him miserable all the time. From my mouth to Joss' ear! And if and when Sarah visits Angel? Let them each tell her 'I'd like you to meet my girlfriend.' In my opinion, 4 years is long enough for a vampire to brood about one teenage girl. And Spike should brood maybe for an episode, and then move on. I need to see some major Spike kissage next season. The title of this post is counting shags. Do you realize we got ONE Spike kiss this season and it was with Drusilla in a flashback? This was not good. This was unprecedented in Spike screen history. I'm ticked about it, now that I think about it.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 15:43:00 GMT -5
Hi, I'm so ... depressed?....emotional...I don't even know why. I've had to live in the Real World all day and even when I had time didn't come to the board. I'm not sure I'll ever go back and read the posts. I was fine all day. But now I'm not. I really don't understand this, or like it. I'm known in my family as either stoic or phlegmatic (i.e. unemotional). I'm going to blame it on sleep-deprivation (my favorite blamee--I've always figured 90% of Buffy's bizarre behavior was sleep deprivation) and go to bed. Anne asked for fair warning on eye-candy pictures. Did I miss some of those--please give me the post numbers I could use them, or post some more (clearly marked of course--that way I can find them. Sorry to be so pitiful. Nothing here on the episode or show. I've got thoughts, but just can't get up the energy to write coherently. Hopefully my psychosis will be short-lived. Good night all. Enjoy one another. Sue
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 15:43:30 GMT -5
Sue, you are feeling just like I am! Except I slept all day from depression, while you're sleep deprived. Don't stay gone long. Get sleep and come back fast. I need you!
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 15:45:05 GMT -5
Patti - yes, definitely not enough romance for Spike this season . . . but he was bug-shagging crazy for quite awhile, then really reticent and racked with guilt . . . by the time he got to a place where he could viably handle a romance, The First was upon them, he had to stick with Buffy, and well - it was the last season, so that was that. I think the lack of Buffy/Spike kissage was just to keep things nice and vague and soften things for B/A shippers. She gave Angel a nice but brief kiss and told him those not terribly romantic words: "Maybe someday, years from now, but maybe never." Then she told him to leave. She gave the amulet to Spike, she called him a champion, she slept in the same bed with him twice, and she gave him every reason to believe, in the way she talked (and didn't talk) about Angel, that she saw them on equal terms. I loved the line about how she should just let them duke it out, and adding "there could be oil involved . . .". Then she told Spike, with tears in her eyes to support her statement, that she loved him. If they had kissed and shagged on screen as well, what would be left for B/A shippers to cling to? Joss wasn't going to tip the scales in either direction - because, I think, it's been set up for a long time to end this way: Buffy accepting her light & dark sides fully and equally (Angel & Spike) and in doing so, beginning to "come into herself," finding a completeness that might or might not lead her to one of the two, or another man entirely, or no man at all.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 15:45:32 GMT -5
Patti-Okay, crying more now. Husband is going to think I've gone round the bend. Good, good, night Sue
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 16:26:00 GMT -5
Once we get on the new board, we can snatch away spoilers ourselves if we need to. My suggestion is that for now, when removing something spoilery is so time-delayed and difficult, and given that most of us read ALL the posts, I'd tend to keep things on the cautious side and if in doubt something is a spoiler, give the URL but no details. Once we move, we can be a little less cautious. Naturally, that's only my take on things and I have kept religiously away from spoilers of any sort--even avoiding legitimate news items--for a couple of months now. If somebody else has an idea of a better ground rule to observe, squeak up. Nan
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 16:26:32 GMT -5
Nan, Thank you so much for the info. I can take criticism, even heavy criticism, as long as isn't Star Search quality, (or whatever that program is). Also, I can take knowing I'll never make the cut. My Dad's a painter and that's a gene I didn't inherit. Altho I regret that, I was always pretty clear on it and I can live without it. I can live without this too, but I'd like to test the possibilities. Also, I have a day job and have no illusions about that. I write documents all the time. They're just not alot of fun.
Rusty Goode
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 16:27:08 GMT -5
I definitely want to see a nice romance for Spike next season. I do NOT think he needs a whole season to brood over Buffy. Let Angel do the brooding. He is good at it. It's part of who he is. Spike is not a brooder, as we see from the contrast in the way they handled soul-acquisition. Spike got on his feet a lot faster than Angel, because Angel, as Spike tells him in SchoolHard, was never one for crowds. Spike lets people help him - he eventually asked for help. So - I think he needs a nice Italian girl- you know, to love him right. (Laura, go to the end of the line, wench!).
Edited By Spring Summers at 5/21/2003 10:50:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 16:27:38 GMT -5
NAN- How about we set up a SPOILER thread, sort of like ScoopMe has? Then we could take the same approach we do here. If you have a spoiler, you put it in the spoiler thread, and tell people they can go see it at their own risk. That way, less work for Vlad on "policing" - though it would surely have to happen now and then.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 16:28:10 GMT -5
Spring said: She gave the amulet to Spike, she called him a champion, she slept in the same bed with him twice, and she gave him every reason to believe, in the way she talked (and didn't talk) about Angel, that she saw them on equal terms. I loved the line about how she should just let them duke it out, and adding "there could be oil involved . . .". Spring, well said (your whole post) and I loved that 'oil' line as well. I posted my thoughts on the episode in #47 and mentioned that line as one of my favorite things. (also a great visual) But I believe Buffy slept with Spike 3 times - Once in 'Touched', and twice in 'Chosen'. In Chosen, there was the night she asked to stay, with the cheek touching and all that, then we have a day intervening (group doing planning, Faith and wood scene at school, living room scene) and the next night we see Spike on cot with amulet, and Buffy on porch, then both of them standing facing each other in basement. THAT is the night I am, like Alexandra, convinced they didn't just 'sleep' together.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 19, 2004 16:28:58 GMT -5
Sue, in case you're still here, the Spike eye candy pic is #28
Patti T.
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