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Post by Shan on Oct 25, 2006 21:48:04 GMT -5
Whoa. Shot in the head; I actually gasped...so Bad Wolf saved Captain Jack. Unaware of the side effects, perhaps? Or was that the intention all along? Now we have two who can regenerate, after a fashion. Maybe Jack is the ultimate companion, seeing as he can't be killed either. This is excellent, really. Dark, yes; but I really liked how the character of Suzie underscored the point of being too insulated and how that warps your sense of reality. Yuh-huh. Jack is quite isolated from the denizens of the planet he (and Torchwood) is supposedly protecting. Gwen is their re-connection to that after the-disaster-that-was-Suzie so comprehensively lost it. The other two were headed down that path as well, what with the sneaking out of the devices and, er, the hedonostic etc the doctor fella was engaged in. And no. For the sake of the tradition of DW, I don't ever want to see Jack as a permanent companion to the Doctor. He was good as a sketchy flirty-pseudo-nemesis for an ep or so, but that's only because they were two big personalities in conflict and that was the actual story and made it interesting. The relationship between two personalities that large couldn't exist in as small a space as the TARDIS on a long-term basis and still have traditional DW stories go on around it. OTOH, there are probably thousands upon thousands of Jack/#9 fics in existence with at least one still being posted every 3.2 seconds.
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Post by Queen E on Oct 26, 2006 0:35:53 GMT -5
Pile of ashes? Not sure what you mean there, Shan...and to be honest, it's hard to tell at this point whether or not it's a stunt because it's the pilot episode. Still, generally, US television will flirt with bi- or homosexuality, only to re-establish heterosexual behavior by the end of the episode or mini-arc. It's really more of Jack's character and bisexuality that interests me. Bisexuality is a big no-no on US television; generally, that character will end up sick, dead, or otherwise broken of that behavior by the end of the episode. It's refreshing to not only have it be "no big deal" but that it is in fact the protaganist, well, that just wouldn't happen.
Sorry. I don't mean to be so focused on one particular aspect when there was so much awesome in the episode. More thoughts later...
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Post by Queen E on Oct 26, 2006 0:37:29 GMT -5
Whoa. Shot in the head; I actually gasped...so Bad Wolf saved Captain Jack. Unaware of the side effects, perhaps? Or was that the intention all along? Now we have two who can regenerate, after a fashion. Maybe Jack is the ultimate companion, seeing as he can't be killed either. This is excellent, really. Dark, yes; but I really liked how the character of Suzie underscored the point of being too insulated and how that warps your sense of reality. Yuh-huh. Jack is quite isolated from the denizens of the planet he (and Torchwood) is supposedly protecting. Gwen is their re-connection to that after the-disaster-that-was-Suzie so comprehensively lost it. The other two were headed down that path as well, what with the sneaking out of the devices and, er, the hedonostic etc the doctor fella was engaged in. And no. For the sake of the tradition of DW, I don't ever want to see Jack as a permanent companion to the Doctor. He was good as a sketchy flirty-pseudo-nemesis for an ep or so, but that's only because they were two big personalities in conflict and that was the actual story and made it interesting. The relationship between two personalities that large couldn't exist in as small a space as the TARDIS on a long-term basis and still have traditional DW stories go on around it. OTOH, there are probably thousands upon thousands of Jack/#9 fics in existence with at least one still being posted every 3.2 seconds. Hee! So very very true. And you're right, I don't think that would actually happen. I just find it enormously interesting that Jack now is in a similar position...
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Oct 26, 2006 5:52:52 GMT -5
Pile of ashes? Not sure what you mean there, Shan...and to be honest, it's hard to tell at this point whether or not it's a stunt because it's the pilot episode. er, Shan is referring to episode 2 in the wrong thread ...is it a spoiler to say when something is a spoiler? sorry.
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Post by Riff on Oct 26, 2006 6:42:35 GMT -5
I LOVE LOVE LOVED this but kind of random, not in any particular order of importance, thoughts: .... I don't think it's all that dark. I don't know why, it just doesn't feel bleak and hopless or...whatever. There are a lot of things to look forward to, IMO, and the characters seem to present that. Jack is quite taken with Gwen. Perhaps for the same reason I am: she's intensely curious, intelligent, gutsy and connected. And Gwen herself is the antithesis of dark, gloomy, etc. She's thoughtful. Thoughtful is different from dark and doesn't necessarily lead to it. We have all the Jack backstory to look forward to. Gwen will start digging for it, this we know. .... As I watched the scene, I was surprised that Jack even thought to ask the re-vivified corpse about the "beyond". Then, getting the rapid-fire bits and pieces of the story of the glove, I actually became not only disappointed in him that he'd asked, but disappointed in him that he'd wasted time asking..... Erin, I get what you mean about the different approach to sexuality that UK television takes compared to the US (yes, I know Joss was packing up his desk and getting ready to leave over the Willow/Tara scene in "The Body" when the phone rang and the execs said they'd leave it in). My own personal take (separated from cultural references because most of the time I live under a rock) is....what...A couple of kissing scenes? What's the big deal? Het sex and the guy ends up a pile of ashes every time...kind of sends a message in itself... I was more disturbed by Jack taking a bullet to the forehead and then Susie committing suicide than anything to do with sex. .... Cardiff sure has changed in the past 20 years... I don't recognize ANYTHING. .............. Being interrupted repeatedly plays hell with trying to pay attention to what's going on. ......... Who ARE all you people? Whereas, for me, his character was elevated by this. Please try to contain your surprise. ;D Seriously, I imagine that he asked because he can't die himself. It's very hard to know what effect that would have on someone. He's generally such an action-based persona, and often avoids the serious stuff, that he may never have stopped for long enough to truly consider the issue of death. Now, however, that issue defines who he is, and so he's scrambling about and trying to understand what has happened. Because Jack did die. Did he see nothing? Did he see something, and can't fathom what it was?
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Post by Riff on Oct 26, 2006 6:46:18 GMT -5
An experience of nothing. That experience in itself proves nothing, of course (unless one has a rather simplistic view of these matters), though I wouldn't be surprised if that's what Russell is saying. Or is it? He can be hard to pin down, and will seemingly go against his own beliefs for the sake of drama. Were we getting a bit of the writer's philosophy, or was it simply there as powerful drama? The important thing wasn't that the afterlife was "disproven"; it's that the poor murder victim believed that. Yes. That is very, very dark. Whatever, it's what Jack thinks about this that counts. He seemed disturbed, but hardly gave the impression his world view was shattered. Fascinating stuff, and promising for the future development of the character. Ah, you're making my nascent tv scholarness come to the fore. It's funny how many religious themes worked their way into AtS, BtVS, and Firefly, when Joss is an avowed atheist; an argument could be made that it served the stories, so personal philosophy be damned. It wouldn't be a long journey to infer that RTD would do the same...and this definitely makes Torchwood distinct from Doctor Who. (Which is vital if it is to survive on its own.) And given Jack's a) adaptability and b) connection with "the Lonely God" as the cat-nun referred to the Doctor, he knows that there is some kind of life somewhere...and I would suppose that's as far as it goes at this point. OK, back to the episode. Yes, it's all very slippery. I always prefer the question mark to pat answers, anyway.
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Post by Riff on Oct 26, 2006 6:48:25 GMT -5
Oh, and nice power shot of Captain Jack above the city; do you think this is a deliberate shout-out to Angel? (Or Batman, which I believe is the origin of the "Angel above the city" shot.) DLM had ALL of them up there. Okay, DLM could have been a shout-out to Angel as well, but...there are lots of above the city shots. I think they're about isolation, myself. Eetah. There's also that element of protection (even if it is a deluded idea of protection).
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Post by Queen E on Oct 26, 2006 6:54:14 GMT -5
Pile of ashes? Not sure what you mean there, Shan...and to be honest, it's hard to tell at this point whether or not it's a stunt because it's the pilot episode. er, Shan is referring to episode 2 in the wrong thread ...is it a spoiler to say when something is a spoiler? sorry. No, that's OK. I've got the second episode still to watch, so discuss away! Besides, I'd rather be slightly spoiled than completely confused.
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Post by Riff on Oct 26, 2006 6:54:37 GMT -5
Whoa. Shot in the head; I actually gasped...so Bad Wolf saved Captain Jack. Unaware of the side effects, perhaps? Or was that the intention all along? Now we have two who can regenerate, after a fashion. Maybe Jack is the ultimate companion, seeing as he can't be killed either. This is excellent, really. Dark, yes; but I really liked how the character of Suzie underscored the point of being too insulated and how that warps your sense of reality. Yuh-huh. Jack is quite isolated from the denizens of the planet he (and Torchwood) is supposedly protecting. Gwen is their re-connection to that after the-disaster-that-was-Suzie so comprehensively lost it. The other two were headed down that path as well, what with the sneaking out of the devices and, er, the hedonostic etc the doctor fella was engaged in. And no. For the sake of the tradition of DW, I don't ever want to see Jack as a permanent companion to the Doctor. He was good as a sketchy flirty-pseudo-nemesis for an ep or so, but that's only because they were two big personalities in conflict and that was the actual story and made it interesting. The relationship between two personalities that large couldn't exist in as small a space as the TARDIS on a long-term basis and still have traditional DW stories go on around it. OTOH, there are probably thousands upon thousands of Jack/#9 fics in existence with at least one still being posted every 3.2 seconds. Eetah again! Jack would not work as a permanent companion. He did show some deference to the Doctor; in "Bad Wolf" he evens calls the Doctor "Sir" - how the slash people must have pounced on that one! The thing is that the Doctor is 900 years old and a member of the oldest and most advanced civilisation in the Universe - ultimately he's always going to be in charge on the TARDIS, and that would stiffle Jack's character.
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Post by Queen E on Oct 26, 2006 6:56:52 GMT -5
Ah, you're making my nascent tv scholarness come to the fore. It's funny how many religious themes worked their way into AtS, BtVS, and Firefly, when Joss is an avowed atheist; an argument could be made that it served the stories, so personal philosophy be damned. It wouldn't be a long journey to infer that RTD would do the same...and this definitely makes Torchwood distinct from Doctor Who. (Which is vital if it is to survive on its own.) And given Jack's a) adaptability and b) connection with "the Lonely God" as the cat-nun referred to the Doctor, he knows that there is some kind of life somewhere...and I would suppose that's as far as it goes at this point. OK, back to the episode. Yes, it's all very slippery. I always prefer the question mark to pat answers, anyway. Hee! We were just talking about that in the "Girl in the Fireplace" thread. That the ambiguity regarding whether Mme. de Pompadour and the Doctor "danced" was actually something we appreciated.
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Post by Riff on Oct 26, 2006 6:57:14 GMT -5
Pile of ashes? Not sure what you mean there, Shan...and to be honest, it's hard to tell at this point whether or not it's a stunt because it's the pilot episode. Still, generally, US television will flirt with bi- or homosexuality, only to re-establish heterosexual behavior by the end of the episode or mini-arc. It's really more of Jack's character and bisexuality that interests me. Bisexuality is a big no-no on US television; generally, that character will end up sick, dead, or otherwise broken of that behavior by the end of the episode. It's refreshing to not only have it be "no big deal" but that it is in fact the protaganist, well, that just wouldn't happen. Sorry. I don't mean to be so focused on one particular aspect when there was so much awesome in the episode. More thoughts later... *whispers* That was the second ep...Anyway, I can see that Jack's bisexuality "interests" you. ;D
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Post by Riff on Oct 26, 2006 6:59:39 GMT -5
Yes, it's all very slippery. I always prefer the question mark to pat answers, anyway. Hee! We were just talking about that in the "Girl in the Fireplace" thread. That the ambiguity regarding whether Mme. de Pompadour and the Doctor "danced" was actually something we appreciated. I think that, while we always want the answer, we're generally disappointed no matter what it is! ;D
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Post by Queen E on Oct 26, 2006 7:10:14 GMT -5
Pile of ashes? Not sure what you mean there, Shan...and to be honest, it's hard to tell at this point whether or not it's a stunt because it's the pilot episode. Still, generally, US television will flirt with bi- or homosexuality, only to re-establish heterosexual behavior by the end of the episode or mini-arc. It's really more of Jack's character and bisexuality that interests me. Bisexuality is a big no-no on US television; generally, that character will end up sick, dead, or otherwise broken of that behavior by the end of the episode. It's refreshing to not only have it be "no big deal" but that it is in fact the protaganist, well, that just wouldn't happen. Sorry. I don't mean to be so focused on one particular aspect when there was so much awesome in the episode. More thoughts later... *whispers* That was the second ep...Anyway, I can see that Jack's bisexuality "interests" you. ;D Only from a sociological and aesthetic perspective. Of course, I'm still reeling from the lack of advertising on the BBC.
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Post by Shan on Oct 26, 2006 9:10:24 GMT -5
Pile of ashes? Not sure what you mean there, Shan...and to be honest, it's hard to tell at this point whether or not it's a stunt because it's the pilot episode. er, Shan is referring to episode 2 in the wrong thread ...is it a spoiler to say when something is a spoiler? sorry. Oy, vey. I watched it all in a row so it was all one episode in my head.
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Post by Shan on Oct 26, 2006 9:23:06 GMT -5
Pile of ashes? Not sure what you mean there, Shan...and to be honest, it's hard to tell at this point whether or not it's a stunt because it's the pilot episode. Still, generally, US television will flirt with bi- or homosexuality, only to re-establish heterosexual behavior by the end of the episode or mini-arc. It's really more of Jack's character and bisexuality that interests me. Bisexuality is a big no-no on US television; generally, that character will end up sick, dead, or otherwise broken of that behavior by the end of the episode. It's refreshing to not only have it be "no big deal" but that it is in fact the protaganist, well, that just wouldn't happen. Sorry. I don't mean to be so focused on one particular aspect when there was so much awesome in the episode. More thoughts later... *whispers* That was the second ep...Anyway, I can see that Jack's bisexuality "interests" you. ;D I like it that Jack is just...Jack. I don't see him as bi-sexual because that's not the main feature of either him OR the show. Which...kind of what Erin was getting at, I think, with liking the "no big deal" part of it.
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