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Post by Queen E on Oct 1, 2007 4:45:04 GMT -5
So...WHY isn't Ianto fired? Because, if it was me, he would be so very fired. Possibly even on fire. And ruin that pretty face? No way!
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Oct 1, 2007 6:55:51 GMT -5
So...WHY isn't Ianto fired? Because, if it was me, he would be so very fired. Possibly even on fire. Is not specifically mentioned. I like the 'coffee' theory - Ianto makes the coffee... and has access to retcon... and oh look, now he's not in trouble... But sadly it become unlikely from later evidence. Rumour has it the writers decided GDL was too cute to fire. But really, it's like the whole Angel/Angelus thing. She was turned, but she still had a soul. Angel. Then that dude fiddled with the wiring. Angelus. Ianto didn't notice right away. Staking the last vampire, even if it's Angel, makes sense to protect the whole and prevent the possibility of more vamps, but it isn't nice to the individual.
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Post by Sara on Oct 1, 2007 9:21:48 GMT -5
So...WHY isn't Ianto fired? Because, if it was me, he would be so very fired. Possibly even on fire. *snort* I'm pretty sure Jack was tempted to do both. If nothing else, Ianto's indirectly responsible for the deaths of two people—you'd think that would merit a suspension, at the very least. Or having to muck out the Weevil cells for a year or two. I also thought it was interesting that everyone opened fire on FrankenLisa; since they all took several shots within a very short amount of time, there's really no way of knowing for certain who actually killed her—which means Ianto doesn't have a specific person to hate. I wonder if Jack intended it to be that way. And count me among those who'd have liked to known what happened to the pterodactyl.
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Post by Karen on Oct 1, 2007 9:42:20 GMT -5
So...WHY isn't Ianto fired? Because, if it was me, he would be so very fired. Possibly even on fire. *snort* I'm pretty sure Jack was tempted to do both. If nothing else, Ianto's indirectly responsible for the deaths of two people—you'd think that would merit a suspension, at the very least. Or having to muck out the Weevil cells for a year or two. I also thought it was interesting that everyone opened fire on FrankenLisa; since they all took several shots within a very short amount of time, there's really no way of knowing for certain who actually killed her—which means Ianto doesn't have a specific person to hate. I wonder if Jack intended it to be that way. And count me among those who'd have liked to known what happened to the pterodactyl. I'm pretty sure I heard the pterodactyl squawk when Ianto came in and saw Lisa laying on the floor dead. I think Jack let Ianto live because he identifies with what he did for love - possibly because he did a similar thing in the past?
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Post by Rachael on Oct 1, 2007 12:10:41 GMT -5
So...WHY isn't Ianto fired? Because, if it was me, he would be so very fired. Possibly even on fire. And ruin that pretty face? No way! To each her own. It occurs to me that you and I don't have the same tastes in men's faces. First Simon, now Ianto. I'm still thinking to light him on fire just a little bit.
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Post by Rachael on Oct 1, 2007 12:36:20 GMT -5
So...WHY isn't Ianto fired? Because, if it was me, he would be so very fired. Possibly even on fire. Is not specifically mentioned. I like the 'coffee' theory - Ianto makes the coffee... and has access to retcon... and oh look, now he's not in trouble... But sadly it become unlikely from later evidence. Rumour has it the writers decided GDL was too cute to fire. But really, it's like the whole Angel/Angelus thing. She was turned, but she still had a soul. Angel. Then that dude fiddled with the wiring. Angelus. Ianto didn't notice right away. Staking the last vampire, even if it's Angel, makes sense to protect the whole and prevent the possibility of more vamps, but it isn't nice to the individual. The bit where she was continuing to kill people after the first one is where I stopped sympathizing with Ianto. Actually, I stopped with "hide the body". At that point, he clearly needed to 'fess up and prevent more deaths and attempted upgrades. But, no. Instead, we'll hide the body and not tell anyone.
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Post by Sara on Oct 1, 2007 13:11:22 GMT -5
Is not specifically mentioned. I like the 'coffee' theory - Ianto makes the coffee... and has access to retcon... and oh look, now he's not in trouble... But sadly it become unlikely from later evidence. Rumour has it the writers decided GDL was too cute to fire. But really, it's like the whole Angel/Angelus thing. She was turned, but she still had a soul. Angel. Then that dude fiddled with the wiring. Angelus. Ianto didn't notice right away. Staking the last vampire, even if it's Angel, makes sense to protect the whole and prevent the possibility of more vamps, but it isn't nice to the individual. The bit where she was continuing to kill people after the first one is where I stopped sympathizing with Ianto. Actually, I stopped with "hide the body". At that point, he clearly needed to 'fess up and prevent more deaths and attempted upgrades. But, no. Instead, we'll hide the body and not tell anyone. Right there with you on all of the above. The death of the pizza girl, in particular, rests squarely on Ianto's shoulders as far as I'm concerned, as she was truly an innocent victim in all of this. Put it this way: when you walk into your bedroom and discover your puppy has torn up a pair of shoes, you don't simply scold the puppy only to then shut it in the same room (where it still has access to other shoes) alone and unsupervised while you leave to deal with the wreckage. First you make it so the puppy can't do any more damage right away, either leashing it or otherwise preventing it from having access to stuff it can wreck, and then you do something about the ruined shoes. Same deal here: Ianto should have found some way to keep Lisa contained and unable to access the upgrade machinery first, especially as she clearly was not getting that she'd done a bad thing to the professor, and then worried about the body. Hell, I'm not quite sure why he felt he had to do something about it right then and there. I mean, it's not like Lisa could inflict more pain on the guy—and she certainly couldn't kill him again. They were in a part of the building that no other Torchwooder had set foot in to date, so it wasn't very likely a colleague was going to stumble over it in the next few hours. Nope, the only pressing concern was making sure Lisa didn't hurt anyone else, yet Ianto did absolutely nothing to ensure the safety of others. That, in my book, is pretty much inexcusable.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 1, 2007 14:14:11 GMT -5
Wow! Well, I never saw that coming . . . . Ianto, who knew his oh so calm exterior was hiding this much? This much totally blind obsessive passion and loyalty for his girlfriend/lover. This much bitterness toward Jack and Torchwood and his job at Torchwood. Damn! I knew he was never going to be able to stop/kill Lisa from the moment right after she killed the doctor who'd come to help her. Hiding the body and babbling about "this can't happen again"? If he couldn't see what needed to happen then, he was never going to. No matter how psycho-angry Jack got later, trying to order and threaten him into doing the killing, realizing that it was no longer Lisa, it was never going to happen. Loved how all the sweet little normal-seeming things at the start - the pet pteradactal flapping about their basketball game, Ianto ordering out for pizza - turn out to have rather horrible twists by the end. The cyberwoman outfit itself was sort of silly looking at first, but by the time I saw the unsuccessful upgrade of the doctor and the body of pizza girl inhabited by Lisa . . . well, it wasn't so funny after all. I find myself going back to the questions the Japanese doctor was asking about percentage of cybernetics when he first examined her. How much of Lisa was really still there? How completely was she hiding the cyber "take over all the weak humans" mentality as she explained how to keep her alive, hide her, etc.? How did this different way of cybering, working on the body first, instead of just grabbing the brain first, alter things? By the time she had taken over pizza-girl's body, she started out talking as if she was all Lisa again, as if the act of putting her brain into a human body had left behind Cyber-thinking. But of course it didn't, how could it? She moves on to wanting Ianto to merge with her and "upgrade" again. And it's not like the cyber body parts alone could have made her attempt to upgrade people, kill people, talk about eliminating all the weak humans, raise an army of cyber people, etc. That was her mind speaking. So was any of it Lisa mind still? Were all of her reactions, conversation, and so on with Ianto and the Doctor earlier just pretending? Or was there some Lisa in there too, just pushed down once the cyberbody was freed? Add in the fact that cyberLisa didn't realize she had only partly upgraded until she saw herself and the waters are even more muddy. The team is really rather more prepared than I had thought. They have different plans ready to deal with attacks or invasions; ways to lock down the whole base to contain things; etc. But still. They were damn lucky that a lot of their improvisation worked. And, even though they've had ample evidence that sometimes the biggest danger comes from within their own team, they still keep getting taken a bit by surprise. Loved the offhand dismissal of the boring and liquid alien visitors - "send the 'great to see ya, but get the hell out of our atmosphere' message". ;D So, now Owen and Gwen have been snogging and Jack's given Ianto the kiss, truly, of life. Why isn't anyone getting down and funky with Tosh? When does she get her groove on, dammit? ;D
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Post by Lola m on Oct 1, 2007 14:16:49 GMT -5
Wow. Ianto went from a pretty, fade-into-the-background-coffee-getter to a real and very interesting person all in one quick moment. Cool. And he's a veteran of the Battle of Canary Wharf: but still, the isolation down there in Torchwood 3 is getting to him I retract that: he's nowhere near as "lost" as Suzie or Owen were. And he is bleeding for the poor guy Lisa tried to "help." Oh he's going just as crackers as the rest of them, just in his own way. Isolation, not a good thing!
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Post by Lola m on Oct 1, 2007 14:19:31 GMT -5
Okay.... Jack kissing life back into Ianto: felt/looked like something more than CPR. As if he can share his immortality. Looked like more to me too. Can Jack share some of the TARDIS engergy stuff? And what does that mean about Ianto now? ;D Pesky real life always pokes its nose in at the worst possible moments, doesn't it?
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Post by Lola m on Oct 1, 2007 14:22:13 GMT -5
The last fifteen-twenty minutes.. oh my freakin' god. That's about all I have to say about that: just.. wow. Jack is badass and scary and cool and charismatic and makes the hard decisions and wow. Yeah. The panic-y franticness was rather real feeling. Very tense TV watching!! And Jack, oh my! This show is not afraid to show all sides to their characters, is it? I'm thinking the only way out of Torchwood is, well, in a box. And not even then, 'cuz you end up on a slab down in the basement, like Susie.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 1, 2007 14:23:57 GMT -5
So right there with ya. Mindblowingly amazing those last 20 minutes. My heart rate was soring and I was nervous as hell. But at the same time, it was gut wrenchingly sad. Fabulous episode. Incredible edge-of-your-seat action and pathos all at once. There was really no good way out of all that, was there? I keep trying to come up with one, but . . . No. It was doomed to go downhill from the moment Ianto first "saved" her.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 1, 2007 14:31:42 GMT -5
Holy crap. I really thought Ianto would finally kill Pizza-Girl Lisa, I really did. I'm glad that it was all of the rest of them that did it, and not just Jack for Ianto to blame it on. It really was essential that all the rest of them killed her, wasn't it? Because he thought for a second that he might actually die? I took that to be more like a . . . like a re-connecting to humanity thing. Remembering what it's like to be vulnerable. Which could help him re-connect more with people. Because it came right on the heels of the incomplete conversation about being in love. I was also intrigued by the "I've got nothing left to lose" "there's always something left to lose" bit.
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Post by Lola m on Oct 1, 2007 14:32:23 GMT -5
Wow. This episode really brought the Angel connection to my mind again. Very heartbreaking: who can be saved, who is too far gone, how heroic is the hero, what is heroism, and the curse of immortality. Poor Ianto. Shan, what exactly do you mean in terms of "direction"? I guess I felt it made sense that he would feel that way; humans are meant to die, after all, and I can imagine that being outside of that would be alienating and make you take for granted all the intricacies/emotions of every day humanity. Love seeing the connections you draw to Angel - I can definitely see that!
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Post by Lola m on Oct 1, 2007 14:45:22 GMT -5
Playing Basketball in the bat cave. Hee. Enter mysterious stranger. Oh, the fountain thingy goes all way down. neat! What a partial cyberperson looks like. Is that a sonic screwdriver? Objectify much? In order to save what we love, we have to risk losing it. I totally forgot that line! And that was the problem for Ianto, wasn't it? He simply couldn't face losing Lisa at all. Couldn't see that letting her become this cyberized killing machine was not saving her. Not saving the real Lisa. Ah, yes. Literally and metaphorically, so to speak. My kind of struggling . . . But they're all going to have to learn to fight the isolation, they can't always be looking to Jack. Waiting for him to ask, wondering about him, etc. Ianto needed to tell them what was going on. And he didn't because he knew that they wouldn't all see it the way he did . . . Oooh, yes! But do they know for sure, or are they just going to be suspicious? Like, "he shouldn't have been able to survive that, what's going on?". That was not a good moment for them, was it? I wonder if Jack will let him do it sometime, because he won't be dead forever . . . I can see both sides of this. Jack is and he isn't. In some ways, he's in that position that the Doctor is in a lot. People looking to him to save the day, wanting him to take care of things, but then also wanting to snark about the methods or results. Which, yes, someone should always question leaders, keep them accountable. But at the same time, you have more of a right to be part of the decision-making when you take your share of responsibility. I mean, Ianto, dude! You're the one who brought cyberwoman into the place, hid it from everyone, saw that she'd killed and kept hiding things, protecting her . . . And you weren't offering any other options, were you? Because a part of you knew there weren't any, and this way you could just let others be forced to take the action that you would never do. ;D My first thought was, oh yes! With the Doctor! Broke him out of some emotional stasis, maybe?
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