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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:18:14 GMT -5
As Rusty Goode suggested, we need an area outside of the episode board to discuss what we have learned about Spike in December 17th episode.
Has Buffy's belief in Spike allowed him to break the ties that the First used to bind him?
What is up with the drowning? The "not breathing" issue has been raised and re-hashed in both BtVS and Angel. What kind of torture is that supposed to be?
And what was the Uber-Vamp up to when our view was obstructed? It certainly made Spike scream.
Thoughts? Comments? Queries?
M. Watergal =^..^=
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:19:16 GMT -5
Yes, I agree with Rusty that as the Spike/Marsters thread moves down the board, it will be harder to find and will get less traffic. So what say that one of us - whoever gets inspired first - plans to start a Spike-centered Misc thread for each episode from here on in, as water-gal has here.
I think that Buffy's words are giving Spike strength, and will help him find true faith and confidence in himself - faith that will ultimately be independent of Buffy's opinion.
I'm not sure I would call it "regaining" his confidence, because in a sense he's never really had much faith in himself - just a lot of brashness and bravado.
On the breathing thing, I vacillate between the opinion that it's just a lame image we're not meant to dwell on, to believing it is meant to signify that Spike has, or will, regain some measure of humanity/mortality. Any strong opinions on this?
Would be curious too about opinions on the obvious parallels being drawn between Andrew & Spike . . . I'm not sure what the message is there.
Also, Spike must be heading for some major reward (like some Buffy lovin') as well as major sacrifice, or he wouldn't be going through these tortures, I don't think.
I actually like the way Buffy took so long to warm up to Spike or provide help or forgiveness. It's better that way, it means more.
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:20:05 GMT -5
Spring and Rusty Goode: Glad I found you on the Misc. board. I missed hearing from you on the episode board. I have to admit that when I first saw the episode I simply thought that they had themselves a continuity error. That they had forgotten the parameters they had layed out earlier for their vampires and simply gone for the imagery. (And at times I still lean that way.) But I find it hard to believe that in an episode where they manage to keep Giles from touching anything all the while making references to M. Knight Shaymalan (that's another thread altogether), that they would be undone by such a small detail. Then again, they may have been so intent on the The Sixth Sense references that the water torture was just a small detail that slipped past. (I'm not very decisive today am I?) All I can do now, is go back and watch the episode again. I have to inspect Giles closely, and I have to listen to Drusilla. People seem to have gotten much more out of her than I did on first inspection. (To tell the truth, nothing she said was making any sense to me. But then again, I just finished driving home for the holidays. A 12h drive. It addles the brain. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it! Hey, and Alexandra K. where is she? Are you there? You waited so patiently for the new episode,(creating topics to keep us occupied) I'm surprised I have yet to hear from you on the episode board. Then again, you are probably plodding through the 200+ posts. Hope to get your take on all this soon. always glad to hear from all my fellow "Spike topics" people. Hoping to expand the group...what do YOU think you lurker you? M.
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:20:33 GMT -5
My favorite part of this episode was Spike having the power to stand up to the FE because he knew Buffy believed in him. I'm sure Spike has some hard days ahead of him (and maybe some more torture), and I can't imagine what the FE's goal is with Spike, but Spike has confidence in Buffy's trust, and I think that's going to see him through the tough times ahead.
I don't know what's ahead for Spike, but I think Buffy's reached some sort of compromise with him in her mind, where she can separate who he's become from who he was. To steal a line from "Jerry Maguire," I think Buffy's coming to care for Spike because of "the man he's trying to be."
I kept hearing over the summer that people were curious how a souled Spike wouldn't be the same as a souled Angel, and now we know. We're actually seeing Spike go through all these things day by day, ever since he showed up five years ago in "School Hard." We've only seen Angel's story told in flashbacks, but with Spike, we actually get to witness it as it happens.
What I'm saying is, I think Spike's in for one Hell of a storyline.
Edited By Chimene Mata at 12/18/2002 11:45:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:21:21 GMT -5
It seems that a love for Buffy is so strong that both Spike and Angel have been able to force themselves to resist TFE and choose good over evil even at great pain or consequences. TFE knows it and has a bit of an attitude or sense of the plan going wrong with Spike, just as it saw things sour with Angel. TFE is a pretty big talker an uses intimidation in hopes of getting the plan going. Spike is getting his snark and defiance back. I think once he starts to get his strength back and Uber vamp is out and about,he will walk away from TFE on his own. Janis Shively
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:22:23 GMT -5
I really think Dru was just crazy. No hidden messages there that I could decipher. With regard to the water, I briefly considered it to be holy water, but that would've killed him, so I guess we're supposed to just go with it and not overanalyze his need for oxygen. Vamps need air to speak, so maybe they panic when their supply is cut off just like humans. An instinctive holdover from their days as humans. Either way I don't believe there is any special symbolism about it; it's just a way to vary the torture in a manner that network officials won't get too nervous over.
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:23:15 GMT -5
I am from the Spike to Sanshu camp, so I think that the torture he has been going through is part of that process. I haven't been lurking here long, so I have no idea how much you guys have discussed this, so sorry if I'm being repetitive. I felt the trials in Africa were more of a purification process than something he had to pass to be rewarded with a soul. The fire and the scarab beetles both symbolise purification. So does water. The torture he is undergoing now seems to be a continuation of the trials. The water symbolises cleansing of the soul, (which already has blood on it, through no fault of his own), baptism and rebirth. Having said that, I think he has passed the test, and whether or not he escapes by himself, he has already rescued his own soul. Spike has his balls back, no bones about it.
Edited By brideof spike at 12/19/2002 5:38:00 AM. brideof spike
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:23:30 GMT -5
I think the scenes where Spike pretends for a minute TFE is Dru(something about hating Paris?) shows how far he has come building his confidence. It also shows signs of his former snarkiness(is that even a word?)which I for one would not want to disappear from souled Spike. He still needs to have his sarcastic streak, along with some of his "I'm thinking very evil/dirty thoughts" head tilts and eyebrow raises to stay the Spike I grown to love.
Dru made no sense to me either. I think TFE was trying too hard to be her. The one crucial detail I think that he forgot was her dress. She was dressed way too modern, I dont remember ever seeing her without some sort of long Goth-like gown on. Either way Spike seems like he's got himself under control. I read some spoilers that I wish I hadn't(No More Spoilers For Me!) and I think I would have enjoyed his scenes more without prior knowledge of his "She believes in me" speech. But it was still pretty great!
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:23:42 GMT -5
I found that I agreed with Spike. The Drusilla/TFE DID miss the mark (acting kudoes to JL). She was FAR too sane. Either that or I've been watching too long and I'M crazy.
Comments...unnecessary
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:23:56 GMT -5
I am so confused. Yesterday I posted a message on the episode board about why I thought the drowning torture was real. It had been number 153 on the board. Today it's gone. I thought maybe it had been moved to this board but I can't find it here either. What happened to it? I want my thoughts and opinion on this topic to be seen and considered just as everyone elses are.
And another thing. Yesterday evening when I left work I had read each message on the episode board up through number 198. But this morning when I picked up on 199 there were references to messages I had not read. What gives? deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:24:12 GMT -5
deborah: The site monitors appear to be trying to do some housecleaning - if you posted your thoughts under the IS GILES DEAD thread, or the ANGEL/SPIKE comparison thread, well . . . it looks like some of that has been moved, or is being moved. Give it some time and check back on these MISC boards. There was a lot of off-topic talk - I imagine it is a job to sort it all out.
I am hoping that we have seen the last of "brain-controlled" Spike - i.e., no more triggering! My most shallow, selfish reason for this is that I think they will loosen up on the slicked back hair once he stops doing evil. I do not like the slicked back hair.
Yes, Juliette did a great job playing "not quite Dru"! It is too bad though that she comes back in a role where she can't really touch James. Must be a bummer.
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:24:24 GMT -5
Hello all,
At the risk of sounding one-track minded, I enjoyed the discussion at the "Episodes" board about "Bring On the Night". But my original post, #11 for that ep, in which I was the first to bring up the matter of Spike's water torture (and the deal of what non-corporeal forms being able to "touch" really means) was apparently, for all intents and purposes, all but summarily ignored. Speculation on Giles' death was the dominant thread - WHICH IS FINE. But I WOULD just like to get more thoughts on this matter; hence I'm reposting my original question here. Some of you have already touched on it in this thread, but here I go anyway:
Vampires don't NEED to breathe, right? So why was Spike being tortured by having his head held under water? I don't think this is the case, but surely Spike didn't become HUMAN, did he? That gawd-awful scream as UberVamp leaned over him, blocking him from view - that wasn't caused by his total humaness returning or anything, was it? At least I hope not.
Surely they wouldn't do something as monumental as turn him human off camera, if that's even what happened. That's probably unlikely although if Giles IS dead by now, that obviously would have had to have happened off camera. Goodness... so much to ponder. Back to the Spike "drowning" scene, I also saw no smokiness coming off the water, I assume it wasn't any part holy water. Or was it even water? 12/19/2002 M Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:24:43 GMT -5
After reading your message about a missing post, I went back to the episode board to check out whether the message I wrote referring people to come discuss this subject on the miscellaneous board had been erased. At first I couldn't find it. I knew I had posted it on page 12, but it wasn't there.
I eventually found it on page 10. So, it seems that 2 pages worth of posts have been moved. Before deciding whether your post has been moved, check 2 pages before your posting number, about 40 before the number of your post.
I get the feeling that we will see much of the discussion originally on the episode board appear on the Misc. and Spoiler boards. (There were many spoilers there, they were probably removed.)
M.
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:24:57 GMT -5
Brideof spike--Thank you for de-lurking! That is indeed quite an interesting thought. That all this could be some kind of ritual purification. I am going to have to think about that. Miss Pamela--Welcome back to the "Spike stuff" area of the boards! Yes indeed, you do raise interesting questions that were largely ignored in deference to the "What about Giles?" segment. That is in fact why I started this thread. Here we can talk about it to our heart's content. I must add though, that there were already more than 200 posts when I reached the board, so after reading through all the posts I couldn't find your post to reply to. I'm glad you reposted it here. Let the games begin!
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:25:10 GMT -5
Hi Water gal,
Actually, I did look before I posted my queries asking after yesterday's missing message. All my other messages that I posted yesterday seem to be there, including number 165 which references the missing message. So I know it should be somewhere before #165. But it's nowhere to be found. deborah cohen
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