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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:25:22 GMT -5
Thanks, water gal!
Something weird IS going on with certain posts in the EPS boards, eh? "From amidst you, they disappear." ;-)
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:25:37 GMT -5
It turned up on the Stars/Characters board. Here is the relavent paragraph:
And since I'm here posting I'd like to add my two cents about the *drowning* torture. I believe it truly was torture.
I never quite understood the line in his OMWF song "If my heart could beat it would break my chest", because it seems apparent that he does breathe air and that his blood does circulate within his body. So his heart would have to beat.
This vampire can drink liquids other than blood and eat solid food when he chooses. His organs must function. But if they are harmed; eg, if the lungs are flooded with water, he will recover. The damaged organ(s)/tissue(s) will regenerate. As Morphy Dru' said and someone else previously noted, "That's why our kind make such good dollies, hard to kill".
That's not to say that he doesn't experience discomfort and pain when his body is damaged. We've all seen plenty of evidence of pain. When Glory stuck her finger into his chest he sure hollered, didn't he? Just because he will heal from injuries that would be fatal to humans doesn't mean he doesn't suffer from those injuries.
.....Your comments and feedback would be much appreciated.
12/19/2002 deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:25:50 GMT -5
deborah: I mentioned the following on the Episode board:
On the blood circulation and air intake and all that - best not to think too hard on any of that!! I read an interview with Joss once, where he was asked how his male vampires could have sex without blood circulation. He responded with something about how it was true that it made no sense, but if vampires couldn't get erections, he "wouldn't have a show". So I think we are just meant to suspend disbelief, and go with the flow (so to speak).
It makes no sense that alcohol would have any effect (and it does effect Spike), a lot of things make no sense if the heart doesn't beat, but basically we are just suppose to accept it and not worry our pretty little heads about it. I am OK with that, but this drowning thing seemed so blatant I wondered about it.
Did anyone else get the feeling that worrying about Spike was one of the main reasons Buffy couldn't sleep? Am I nutty to think they are going to have a final fling of some kind? The signs seem to point to that to me Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:26:02 GMT -5
There are several possibilities here, but as my belief is that Spike will eventually be human, it is possible that the process is already happening. In Him when Spike had a reflection was it an error or on purpose. Last week they had a specific scene with Buffy looking in the mirror and not seeing Spike. To push the point that he is still a vampire, or make you wonder about the reflection in "Him"? In the water torture scene, there seems to be bubbles coming his mouth, and he coughs up water. Perfectly normal for a vampire, an error, or was he human? I have been aboard the some kind of alternate reality theory, and when I saw the reflection in "Him" I thought that the different realities might be somehow bleeding together. This could be another aspect of that, he might be sanshuing before our eyes (nobody said it had to be an instant process), or it might be a bunch of errors that I'm reading to much into. 12/19/2002 brideof spike
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:26:17 GMT -5
Water, everyone. I'm in disaster central here in California.Had no power etc., couldn't see the ep. waiting for a loaner tape.Bwah!
Thanks for starting a new thread. I've only read this far and have a meeting now. Hope to catch up soon. Keep posting! RG
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:26:32 GMT -5
Hi everyone. I'm still here. I try to read all the posts before adding anything in case it's all been said before (and it usually has, sigh). I turned on my computer to see 10 pages of posts for "Bring on the Night". Wow. I have finished about 110 and have lots to go. but I am reading the several threads on the Miscellaneous board now because they seem more interesting than most of the episode posts so far. As said here already, 'Giles not touching anything' is the big attractor on the episode board right now. Yeah, yeah, now back to Spike.
I was very disappointed in the "carvings" on his chest. They seemed like they were drawn on with a red ink pen. Very phony. I tell myself that vampires heal very quickly so the cuts are healing up. But I REALLY think they just saved time and effort in the makeup department. Angel's arrow wound in "Graduation Day Part Two" looked pretty good. Why couldn't a bit of effort have been expended on the cuts? The face looked very artful (and painful). And Spike screams beautifully. Something of an art, that.
I think between "Grave" and "Bring on the Night" JM has been enjoying the french fries. I read somewhere that he asked Joss to tell him whenever he was going to be shirtless in an episode so he could pump up. Of course, now all the episodes qualify (Yes!) so he ought to have a permanent membership at the gym. Bottom line, he's terrific in any shape - as Spike, as an actor - but the views in Season 5 were glorious.
Edited By Alexandra K. at 12/19/2002 5:13:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:26:44 GMT -5
Deborah said,"I never quite understood the line in his OMWF song "If my heart could beat it would break my chest", because it seems apparent that he does breathe air and that his blood does circulate within his body. So his heart would have to beat."
In "Pangs" when Buffy is tying Spike to a chair, he complains that she is cutting off his circulation. She says, "You don't HAVE circulation." He snarkily replies, "WELL-IT-PINCHES." So it seems that the Jossverse plays a bit fast and loose with the vampire physiology sometimes. Spike obviously bleeds. What pushes the blood out? Their body temperature is the same as their surroundings, not 98.6 (per "The Initiative" in Season 4). And we've seen Spike smoke innumerable cigarettes which always confuses me because Angel told Xander in "Prophecy Girl" that he couldn't resuscitate Buffy because he had no breath. I guess I'll just have to let the creative vampire physiology lore go and enjoy the anatomy. 12/19/2002 Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:26:56 GMT -5
Well, after reading all the messages citing Joss said this and that and past episodes in which characters refered to various limitations of vampire physiology, and advice that I should suspend my disbelief and just "go with the flow" I've made a personal choice to believe what seems reasonable and logical to me. That is, that despite what Joss has said (treason, I guess), or what characters have said in the past, Jossverse vampires DO have working, functioning organs that when injured, result in pain and possibly temporary inconvenience but not death, (other than from the established methods of killing them), because they are immortal. And this I will believe based upon what I have seen the vampires do (e.g., eat food, drink liquids besides blood [and where, I ask you, do these consumed substances go if they have no functioning organs?] have sex, smoke, [see how I followed sex with smoke, argh, argh, argh], bleed, breathe with chest rising and falling, emit bubbles when head held under water, ETC...), rather than what may have been said about their limitations because, as we know, actions speak louder than words. So, since what has been said is inconsistent with what the vampire characters have done, until/unless future events prove me wrong, I'll fill in the logic for myself. 'Cause in this case, (and sadly in a fair number of others), ME has not established a logical explanation for me to follow
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:27:35 GMT -5
My thoughts on all the torture and pounding and wounds:
Buffy and Spike face the same enemy in Bring on the Night, and are similarly wounded. I think this represents the fact that they are both growing up, learning that life at is best is meant to be enjoyed, and at its worst, is meant to be endured. And that it is never about loving one person or striving for one goal and one’s success or failure in achieving it.
Growing up is hard, and there are always other people in your life who fight against your growth. Facing the fact that life and love are both imperfect and fleeting is the most painful experience of our lives. You claw your way to adulthood, you come out of it with battle scars.
It wasn’t pretty, and certainly not noble or intentional on either party’s part, but Spike and Buffy have been essential in the other’s growth. In the ashes of their tumultuous relationship, they are each finding a modicum of faith in their own selves.
Buffy is ahead of Spike right now in the inner growth department. She’s stopped hating herself, and stopped wanting to die. But Spike is catching up quickly.
Buffy tells Spike he’s still alive because she believes in him. The First, in the form of Dru tells Spike he’s alive because she’s not through with him. But ultimately, Spike will only survive if he values his life and wants to live. Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:28:10 GMT -5
Hi, everybody. I went to the episode board yesterday afternoon and found (already!) over ten pages of posts and most available topics already bashed pretty well to death (is Giles alive, how come water is a torture for a vampire, is Principal Wood a watcher, and so on), not counting a total stranger ranting on and insulting anybody who thought Willow might find a new romance with one of the SiTs. I said EEK to myself and ran away. Maybe this following different threads on the miscellaneous board is the wave of the future (does BtVS HAVE a future?) rather than lumping all the posts into one enormous pot and then cutting out/relocating whatever doesn't seem to be exactly on topic.
I found Bring on the Night a bit static, myself. A letdown. Most of the episode was either Buffy or Spike getting heavily bashed and not being able to do much about it. Certainly the worms (as it were) turn in the end, Buffy going all proactive (I'm not certain this is a good idea, but it certainly sounds rousing) and Spike declaring he can quit being the First's puppet because "Buffy believes in me." The latter was more effective for me because of Spike's look of utter peacefulness, as if the First (and the prospect of more torture) was insignificant against the inner strength of that one certainty. But I find mayhem and passive torture considerably less involving than a fight...and there wasn't much fight in this episode.
I expect it will look better to me in retrospect, after I have a clearer idea of what it's leading to.
I've never seen such serenity in Spike before, ever. So my answer to the titular thread is, Yes, Spike has apparently regained his confidence, even if he can't do much about it but comment and bask in it, at this point. I have faith that something will come of this eventually.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:28:37 GMT -5
I don't think that vampire HAVE to breathe, I think they do 1) because they're used to it 2) because you have to in order to speak, smoke, etc.
If Uber is simply ramming Spike's head under water, then it's unlikely to bother him very much, provided Spike has time to make the adjustment. But he doesn't.
My impression is that Ubbie is doing something else painful simultaneously. An underwater scream draws liquid into the lungs. Even amphibians have discomfort making that fast a transition between air and water. Besides, vampirea much older than Spike are likely to have a psychological reaction to being held under water by force. Angel, if you recall, was less than happy about it.
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:28:49 GMT -5
deborah: You really can't win trying to find a logical answer - if you decide vamps have beating hearts, then the sex, and smoking (yes, I do note how they follow!) and other things (like the fact that Spike bruises) become logical.
BUT, other things become illogical: the fact that Harmony can't feel her pulse, Spike tells us his heart doesn't beat, and on "Angel" there was a camera shot of the inside of chest that showed his unbeating heart (I don't know the details, I saw a promo where a woman with some sort of "zappy" abilities touched him and his still heart - shown on screen - momentarily gave a beat or two).
There is just no way to logically reconcile it all. No matter which you choose to believe (and of course, choose whichever you like - heart beats, heart doesn't), something you've seen or heard on the show becomes illogical.
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:29:08 GMT -5
Angel's heart was momentarily started by electricity. The woman in question was a mutant and could control electricity.
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:29:22 GMT -5
Back in Season 5 when a Scoobie (Xander?)asked *Why is it always blood?* Spike said (paraphrase) *Because blood makes you warm, makes you hard.* Which physiologically is true. So for vamps, after they drink blood, it must circulate thru their veins and arteries, or difuse into their tissues by some arcane form of peristalsis. Maybe Angel never discovered he could inhale and exhale cuz he never smoked.
I did notice that when Spike was lying in the bed asleep in the scene with Anya in his room, JM didn't breathe. Of course I was distracted from watching his chest by that naked hip.
There was a recent link on SlayageBuffyNews to something by an ecologist from (I think), Stanford,who did a projection on how many vampires the population of Sunnydale could support if you look at it as a predator/prey equation. Fantasy or not, Buffy really lends itself to running stuff like this thru your brain. It's the growing field of Physio-Vampology.
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Post by Dalton on Feb 18, 2004 2:29:36 GMT -5
For the study of vampire populations in Sunnydale, I think the scientific name becomes Ecovampology. Correct me if I'm wrong...(snark, snark)
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