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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 22:05:51 GMT -5
"We love each other." "But how could I forget that?"  "I'm the one you can confide in." Hmmmm. Somehow, I don't think so. Jack buried the memory. **bounces excitedly** We're maybe gonna get more Jack backstory? **bounces** I'm thinking that is part of the them this season, yes? Last season was all about isolation and hiding and how connecting with others is hard but is what is needed, so . . . This season is about peeling back the layers, getting to know everyone better, and about relationships. I can help you. That's why I'm here. Hmmmmmm. Is this guy . . . created by Jack? Oooooh! Yes, lots of early back story! The "horrible creatures" that Jack mentioned last season, when he was talking about the horrible things happening during war! Always threatening to attack, invade. And now they do, instead of passing over "like they always did before". And we find out that Gray is his little brother! Dad killed, Gray lost. "I let go of his hand."  The last thing I want to remember. Hmmmm. An artifact that they don't know how it got there? Awwww. Owen. "I would cherish you." Oh, and "I love you, I always have and I ache for you" and whoa, he's going on a bit there. Ooh, ouch. Um. Smackdown a bit hard there, but . . . |
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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 22:18:41 GMT -5
Gwen memories of Rhys comes back a bit . . . of course, she recovered from the retcon, too, so perhaps memory sticks better with her? Oooooh, Ianto is finding things in his diary that don't mesh with the world that Adam created, isn't he? "You're not in it. Everyone else is." What he has to do to exist? Holy crap!  Feeding memories of killing into Ianto's head?!  I didn't do this. Trying to fight. Oh, this is very not nice. Jack is asking "why now"? Figure it out, Jack! Connect the dots and see that something is wrong! Nicely done tentativeness and vulnerability between Gwen and Rhys. And what he's done to Tosh is very icky as well. How much has he . . . reprogrammed her? To be the way he wants her. Oh, Ianto. "You have to lock me away." Don't believe him, Jack!! You know him, look at all the things that are wrong here, figure it out! |
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Post by artemis on Feb 23, 2008 22:20:04 GMT -5
i'm not sure why jack trusted adam in the end (nor how adam brought up the memory when it looked like they weren't touching), but i feel so sorry for jack at having lost those memories. it was fascinating for me, as a viewer, to see all of them.
i thought it was interesting that instead of tosh being angry that adam had messed with her memory, she seemed sad to let go of the false ones. i thought of his manipulating her into sex through false memories as a convoluted version of sexual assault.
this episode reminded the rest of you of "superstar" but it reminded me of willow's memory manipulations in S6.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 22:38:31 GMT -5
Yay! Taping everything that happens there comes in handy! And now they find all the other non-evidence of Adam.
I wonder if Adam didn't think to get rid of these kinds of details because, well, because he thinks all of normal human recording of memories or events is so worthless.
Poor Owen.
Oh, nicely mirroring what happened to Gwen when her memories were first taken! "All I know is when I think of my team, I see you there but I don't feel anything for you. No pride. No warmth." Only now there's the other bad parallel to Gwen, too. The team thinking Jack's got the same problem that Gwen had, that he's forgotten.
Oh, crap. He prepped Tosh for this potential, didn't he? When he was all "what would you do for me"? Rat bastard!
I have to become part of your memories to survive. Hmmmm. Like . . . like that Star Trek story . . . about how the old Gods vanish because no one believes in them anymore?
And there's the slippery slope. He changed them "for the better". Um. No. You changed them to be better for you!
The team's "unique" memories. In particular, Jack's "singlular mind". Uh huh. What do you really want, dude?
(By the way, love the staging of them facing off. Jack's hand covering Adam's, with the plastic between them.)
You always remember what you killed, don't you Jack. Well, you did hit a sore spot there, but you're also missing an important element there. He remembers what he kills, because he kills. So, um, you're probably in a bit of danger there.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 22:53:27 GMT -5
Have to go back, find defining memories that make them what they really are/should be. Well, this is gonna be a bit wonderful and painful . . . Gwen remembers more of Rhys, happy laughing. Owen remembers being 10, mom screaming all day, "I love you but that doensn't have to mean I like you". (Interesting what Owen says out loud and what he doesn't.) Tosh remembers maths, reliable and always the right answer - smiling, happy memory, but also serious. Ianto remembers meeting Lisa, falling in love. (Really, it's interesting with each of them, what they say out loud and what is in their head only.) And now it all starts to come out. The bitter and the sweet, mixed. Best thing you've ever done for me, mum. Kissing in the market. No one I wanted to invite to a flat warming. Losing Lisa, like a world that ended. I love him, but not in the way I love you. (Is that Gwen? Is that what Rhys thinks about Gwen and Jack? And what does that really mean?) There has to be more to life than this. Who'll save me. Now, after getting them back to themselves, they erase Adam. Which, I'm betting, makes him go away. So, the remembering now was to get them able to take the pills? Willing to go back? Or able to make the conscious decision to go back to the real memories? Because if he'd just given them the pills unknowing it would be too much like what Adam did? |
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Post by Sara on Feb 23, 2008 23:06:24 GMT -5
So I'm wondering if Jack thought to go and give Rhys a retcon pill. 'Cause otherwise he's gonna think things are all mucked up again when Gwen gets home and now remembers him just fine but has no recollection of the past two days.
I have to say I was incredibly relieved that neither Tosh nor Ianto will have any memory of Adam or what he did to them. But, like Erin, I'm sad that Owen will never remember the guy he was without all the baggage he's carrying—for once, I actually kinda liked him. Or, for that matter, that Tosh will lose her sense of confidence and happiness in her own skin. The way Owen and Tosh almost seemed to switch personalities was fascinating, suggesting that they may not be as mismatched as I previously believed.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 23:09:03 GMT -5
Lose the bad memories and the good. Adam says he'll help him get back good memories. Hmmmmm. I wouldn't go for it, Jack. Let me play. Uh oh. Don't let him into the memory, Jack. Took him back so he could always be in that memory, not be lost. Wipe me out now and you will lose all your memories of your father. Well, you idiot, by putting yourself in there, by telling him/showing him you did, by spoiling the memory forever, you pretty much removed his motivation to keep the memory and therefore keep you, didn't you? Git. Lost the two days and they all are themselves again. Warts and all.  Measuring tapes don't lie.  There seems to be a recurring theme with these two, isn't there? Stopwatch, measuring tape, hmmmmmm. Damn it!!! Cut off the last moment or so!! The box opens and then . . . . what?! **sets DVR for the repeat session to be a few extra minutes** I hate when channels run over with shows!! |
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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 23:14:10 GMT -5
Then I'll wait until after the next one to read. I'm actually rather successfully being not spoiled on the TW eps so far. I'm rather stunned that I am, frankly, but I've gotten faster with the scroll mouse I guess. ;D |
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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 23:23:21 GMT -5
Aside from the squee factor of watching this on an actual telly, as opposed to BBC iPlayer, I really did enjoy this episode. I'm sure I won't be the only one who thought "Superstar" when Adam showed up. It being Torchwood, however, you really got the darker side of the sock puppet theater aspect, but it did lack the mind fuck quality of Superstar, because they tipped their hand immediately when Gwen walked in and said asked who this guy was. Heee! Yes, I thought of Superstar too, but that was because of the new guy being in the credits and all. I saw some of the same elements from that show (people's personalities being changed to make things better for the person changing things - like Buffy being less powerful), but, as you point out, spun even darker. I can't decide who was mind fucked the worst, but I tend to think Ianto and Tosh are tied. Having memories of multiple murders pushed inside your head or being carefully crafted/molded to be the kind of lover someone wants. Pretty damn icky. Yes, it is very tragic to see the person Owen could have been. And it is so tempting to look at what was done through Adam's eyes. Owen is not cynical anymore. Tosh has more confidence. Why isn't this a good thing? And then I think of Willow "fixing" Tara . . . Very much a rewatcher! So many layers here! |
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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 23:30:54 GMT -5
Aw, cute Rhys and Gwen scene. AdamWTF? Is this like that episode of ST:TNG except without the amnesia? And Gwen is the only one who doesn't know who he is. He's got some kind of mojo. So what is he up to? Adam makes Owen jealous. Part of his tactic, or because he likes her. The child. Gray? All of Torchwood is just goofy in general.  Best. Summary. Ever! Heeee! He's turned into Tosh, which, come to think of it, is sort of like turning into Clark Kent. Very disturbing. Most disturbing part of the ep. And one reason why I am perfectly fine with them taking the retcon. Because no one should have to live on with those kind of fake memories. Because "better" is really just from Adam's point of view, of course. I thought that way at first too. But then, in thinking about it more, I wonder. Making them remember real memories is the only fair way to ask them to take the pill. So that they know more of what they're choosing. That's what I was thinking too! He's gonna have the old Gwen back in one fell swoop. And then he's gonna ask her about Adam and how is she doing after losing and getting memories back and she's gonna be all "what are you taking about?" |
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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 23:35:18 GMT -5
Gwen told him. Wow. Something we all knew, actually. **nods** And it stopped him dead for a moment. But then all he could do was keep going, really. |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 23, 2008 23:36:43 GMT -5
Lose the bad memories and the good. Adam says he'll help him get back good memories. Hmmmmm. I wouldn't go for it, Jack. Let me play. Uh oh. Don't let him into the memory, Jack. Took him back so he could always be in that memory, not be lost. Wipe me out now and you will lose all your memories of your father. Well, you idiot, by putting yourself in there, by telling him/showing him you did, by spoiling the memory forever, you pretty much removed his motivation to keep the memory and therefore keep you, didn't you? Git. Lost the two days and they all are themselves again. Warts and all. Measuring tapes don't lie. There seems to be a recurring theme with these two, isn't there? Stopwatch, measuring tape, hmmmmmm. Damn it!!! Cut off the last moment or so!! The box opens and then . . . . what?! **sets DVR for the repeat session to be a few extra minutes** I hate when channels run over with shows!! There was sand in the box. I don't remember if anything else happened after that. |
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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 23:39:05 GMT -5
Overall I liked this episode. But, it left me with a feeling of melancholy. Still good though. Bittersweet. Which is a favorite word of mine, I know, but also a favorite kind of story for me. Melancholy but with touches of love. Gwen and Rhys being all goofy and fun together and then hesitatingly coming back together. Jack believing in Ianto. Jack being there for all of them. |
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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 23:47:56 GMT -5
i'm not sure why jack trusted adam in the end (nor how adam brought up the memory when it looked like they weren't touching), but i feel so sorry for jack at having lost those memories. it was fascinating for me, as a viewer, to see all of them. I think because Jack wanted the memory so much, he talked himself into . . . not really trusting him, but in convincing himself it was worth it even if he wasn't trustworthy. I saw it as manipulation too. And I think it was a combo of real!Tosh feelings (wanting to be loved and close to someone) and created!Tosh feelings (he gave her the memory of loving him and being happy, so she was still feeling part of that). **nods a lot** Yes!!! Willow and Tara! Exactly!! |
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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 23:56:21 GMT -5
So I'm wondering if Jack thought to go and give Rhys a retcon pill. 'Cause otherwise he's gonna think things are all mucked up again when Gwen gets home and now remembers him just fine but has no recollection of the past two days. Yep. But they do all know they lost 2 days, and Rhys doesn't know that much about what happened, so . . . Although, now that I think of it, why do they need to not know the facts of what happened? I mean, they wouldn't have the actual memory of it, so . . . Although, maybe even just reading about what happened would be enough to bring back Adam. Oh!! And they do need to wipe Rhys too! Because he saw Adam, didn't he? But I'd be happier with them each discovering and bringing out more of that aspect of their personality themselves, than having someone else construct it for them, artificially. |
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The last thing I want to remember.
Feeding memories of killing into Ianto's head?! 
