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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2008 23:58:14 GMT -5
Lose the bad memories and the good. Adam says he'll help him get back good memories. Hmmmmm. I wouldn't go for it, Jack. Let me play. Uh oh. Don't let him into the memory, Jack. Took him back so he could always be in that memory, not be lost. Wipe me out now and you will lose all your memories of your father. Well, you idiot, by putting yourself in there, by telling him/showing him you did, by spoiling the memory forever, you pretty much removed his motivation to keep the memory and therefore keep you, didn't you? Git. Lost the two days and they all are themselves again. Warts and all. Measuring tapes don't lie. There seems to be a recurring theme with these two, isn't there? Stopwatch, measuring tape, hmmmmmm. Damn it!!! Cut off the last moment or so!! The box opens and then . . . . what?! **sets DVR for the repeat session to be a few extra minutes** I hate when channels run over with shows!! There was sand in the box. I don't remember if anything else happened after that. OK, so dramatic emotional moment, but not a needed unexpected plot development! At least I didn't miss some vital new clue. Thanks for letting me know.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Feb 24, 2008 8:17:15 GMT -5
Then I'll wait until after the next one to read. I'm actually rather successfully being not spoiled on the TW eps so far. I'm rather stunned that I am, frankly, but I've gotten faster with the scroll mouse I guess. ;D 2-06... you do not want to be spoiled for 2-06. Really. I was cause someone didn't spoiler tag and I was very annoyed.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Feb 24, 2008 8:21:58 GMT -5
So I'm wondering if Jack thought to go and give Rhys a retcon pill. 'Cause otherwise he's gonna think things are all mucked up again when Gwen gets home and now remembers him just fine but has no recollection of the past two days. Yep. But they do all know they lost 2 days, and Rhys doesn't know that much about what happened, so . . . Although, now that I think of it, why do they need to not know the facts of what happened? I mean, they wouldn't have the actual memory of it, so . . . Although, maybe even just reading about what happened would be enough to bring back Adam. Oh!! And they do need to wipe Rhys too! Because he saw Adam, didn't he? Rhys saw Adam but was not touched by him, didn't have any memories implanted. If being seen was sufficient to sustain Adam he'd have walked down the high street. Actually if it was me I'd go put backup memories in the pizza guy or something, but *shrugs*. And they need to not have clues about those days because all they took was retcon - remember, even a single image can trigger the memories, if they're smart enough. Like with Gwen. If they saw something with the same emotional/professional importance as Gwen seeing that knife then it might start to nag at them, and if they repeated circumstances too exactly like someone coming back from the dead did for Gwen then whoosh, full recall, and Adam is back. On the plus side full recall means they'd know Adam was back... but the memory flash stage would be dangerous.
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Post by Rachael on Feb 24, 2008 11:58:46 GMT -5
Okay, this was pretty good. I still have issues with Ianto - silly man. Who decides that someone may be playing games with your memory, and then goes, alone, and confronts that person?
I mean, someone who can change memories (and Ianto had to suspect that was the case, given his diary) and has been doing so without your consent (as far as you know) is probably reasonably powerful, somewhat malevolent, and likely to want to avoid detection.
You tell the boss, is what you do, Ianto.
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Post by Rachael on Feb 24, 2008 12:01:51 GMT -5
Aside from the squee factor of watching this on an actual telly, as opposed to BBC iPlayer, I really did enjoy this episode. I'm sure I won't be the only one who thought "Superstar" when Adam showed up. It being Torchwood, however, you really got the darker side of the sock puppet theater aspect, but it did lack the mind fuck quality of Superstar, because they tipped their hand immediately when Gwen walked in and said asked who this guy was. The most compelling part of the episode, for me, was how just a little memory change changed so much about Tosh and Owen. (Also Gwen and Ianto, but that was more "out there" and less personality implicit.) They actually became each other, to a great extent, even down to Owen wearing glasses and hoping against hope that Tosh would notice how he felt. I actually found Owen to be more tragic than Tosh...the possibility of what a good man he could have been: forthright with his feelings, apologizing when necessary, done in by self-hatred from childhood. I'm on the fence as to whether Tosh/Owen would be a good thing or not; either they are so similar that they belong together, or they are so similar they should run the hell away from each other. Definitely a rewatcher. And I haven't even gotten into the Jack stuff, but I really need to go and do laundry... I loved the Tosh/Owen flip/flop, too. That was definitely the best part of the ep. I think that Tosh would be good for Owen, but I'm completely unconvinced that Owen would be good for Tosh. What it DID do, though, was give me insight into a character I'd previously been on the fence between "distasteful" and "despicable" about. I don't dislike Owen quite so much as I did before. I didn't really like geeky Owen, either, though. Is there no Happy Medium Owen, somewhere between supergeeky and asshole?
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Post by Rachael on Feb 24, 2008 12:05:42 GMT -5
Measuring tape never lies. . .. LOLOLOLOL! Dave and I were trying to figure out what they were measuring, although we think we know the obvious answer. He was all, "You don't NEED measuring tape for that. Just lay them out side by side." Me: "That's sort of hard to do, right next to each other like that. I mean, they'd be separated by a few feet." Him: "No, no - face to face. The first person to touch the other wins."
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Post by Rachael on Feb 24, 2008 12:10:02 GMT -5
i'm not sure why jack trusted adam in the end (nor how adam brought up the memory when it looked like they weren't touching), but i feel so sorry for jack at having lost those memories. it was fascinating for me, as a viewer, to see all of them. i thought it was interesting that instead of tosh being angry that adam had messed with her memory, she seemed sad to let go of the false ones. i thought of his manipulating her into sex through false memories as a convoluted version of sexual assault. Which is why Jack used the words "he forced you into it" to swing her.
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Post by Rachael on Feb 24, 2008 12:12:32 GMT -5
Overall I liked this episode. But, it left me with a feeling of melancholy. Still good though. Bittersweet. Which is a favorite word of mine, I know, but also a favorite kind of story for me. Melancholy but with touches of love. Gwen and Rhys being all goofy and fun together and then hesitatingly coming back together. Jack believing in Ianto. Jack being there for all of them. Actually, that reminds me of something I was thinking during the retcon scene - Jack was doing the Jesus thing again. "Who will save me?" "I will." "No one ever believed in me." "I did."
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Post by Onjel on Feb 24, 2008 13:12:36 GMT -5
Measuring tape never lies. . .. LOLOLOLOL! Dave and I were trying to figure out what they were measuring, although we think we know the obvious answer. He was all, "You don't NEED measuring tape for that. Just lay them out side by side." Me: "That's sort of hard to do, right next to each other like that. I mean, they'd be separated by a few feet." Him: "No, no - face to face. The first person to touch the other wins." See, I never would have thought of that. I'd be like you, thinking about side by side. Definitely a guy thing.
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Post by Onjel on Feb 24, 2008 13:14:11 GMT -5
Bittersweet. Which is a favorite word of mine, I know, but also a favorite kind of story for me. Melancholy but with touches of love. Gwen and Rhys being all goofy and fun together and then hesitatingly coming back together. Jack believing in Ianto. Jack being there for all of them. Actually, that reminds me of something I was thinking during the retcon scene - Jack was doing the Jesus thing again. "Who will save me?" "I will." "No one ever believed in me." "I did." He was. Touching each one to cement his message to them. Very Jesus-like, at least as he's been portrayed.
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Post by Rachael on Feb 24, 2008 14:34:25 GMT -5
Dave and I were trying to figure out what they were measuring, although we think we know the obvious answer. He was all, "You don't NEED measuring tape for that. Just lay them out side by side." Me: "That's sort of hard to do, right next to each other like that. I mean, they'd be separated by a few feet." Him: "No, no - face to face. The first person to touch the other wins." See, I never would have thought of that. I'd be like you, thinking about side by side. Definitely a guy thing. I think he was thinking in terms of "guy/guy relationship", 'cause you can bet good money that two straight men wouldn't play the "whoever touches the other first wins" game.
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Post by Onjel on Feb 24, 2008 15:34:18 GMT -5
See, I never would have thought of that. I'd be like you, thinking about side by side. Definitely a guy thing. I think he was thinking in terms of "guy/guy relationship", 'cause you can bet good money that two straight men wouldn't play the "whoever touches the other first wins" game. I don't know. I wonder if that applies to them when they're young and constantly comparing. ;d Though I can certainly see it being more likely in the guy/guy relationship instance.
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Post by artemis on Feb 24, 2008 15:45:35 GMT -5
i'm not sure why jack trusted adam in the end (nor how adam brought up the memory when it looked like they weren't touching), but i feel so sorry for jack at having lost those memories. it was fascinating for me, as a viewer, to see all of them. I think because Jack wanted the memory so much, he talked himself into . . . not really trusting him, but in convincing himself it was worth it even if he wasn't trustworthy. yeah, but you were right in another post you wrote about it - once adam ruined the memories jack had no reason to keep them, no reason not to take the pill. seemed like a rather silly move on each of their parts to me. doesn't keep it from being icky though. yes, exactly. i always found those willow scenes to be especially chilling.
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Post by artemis on Feb 24, 2008 15:49:48 GMT -5
Okay, this was pretty good. I still have issues with Ianto - silly man. Who decides that someone may be playing games with your memory, and then goes, alone, and confronts that person? I mean, someone who can change memories (and Ianto had to suspect that was the case, given his diary) and has been doing so without your consent (as far as you know) is probably reasonably powerful, somewhat malevolent, and likely to want to avoid detection. You tell the boss, is what you do, Ianto. i thought ianto was considering telling jack when adam came in unexpectedly and ianto then confronted him. trying to run away at that point would have probably been a better plan, but... i might be misremembering, though. i'll have to rewatch to check. by the by, i thought jack's belief in ianto's lack of capacity for cold-blooded killing over the truth machine's assertion that he had done it was a fascinating glimpse into their relationship, one that seemed to me to be quite different from most of the other looks we've gotten into it.
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Post by artemis on Feb 24, 2008 15:57:48 GMT -5
But I'd be happier with them each discovering and bringing out more of that aspect of their personality themselves, than having someone else construct it for them, artificially. yes, exactly. it wasn't real the way it was done. and since adam was controlling it, he could have changed them back, could have accidentally altered them again (like how he himself offhandedly said his taking the memories of rhys was accidental [though who knows if he was telling the truth]), could have done anything really. now we as viewers know more about what's there - more about their core personalities and the memories that have shaped what parts they show to the world. i feel like this helps me as a viewer to better understand each of them. and hey, i got to see the 51st century in the bargain. ;D
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