|
Post by artemis on Feb 24, 2008 16:00:12 GMT -5
There was sand in the box. I don't remember if anything else happened after that. OK, so dramatic emotional moment, but not a needed unexpected plot development! At least I didn't miss some vital new clue. Thanks for letting me know. yep, jack tilted the box and sand poured out, much of it going through his fingers. no symbolism there or anything.
|
|
|
Post by artemis on Feb 24, 2008 16:02:40 GMT -5
one more thought for today from me:
now that we know who gray/grey is, and how long jack had been trying to find him, it's even more telling of john's personality that john waited to tell jack he'd found gray until john was disappearing into the rift.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Feb 24, 2008 21:01:52 GMT -5
Yep. But they do all know they lost 2 days, and Rhys doesn't know that much about what happened, so . . . Although, now that I think of it, why do they need to not know the facts of what happened? I mean, they wouldn't have the actual memory of it, so . . . Although, maybe even just reading about what happened would be enough to bring back Adam. Oh!! And they do need to wipe Rhys too! Because he saw Adam, didn't he? Rhys saw Adam but was not touched by him, didn't have any memories implanted. If being seen was sufficient to sustain Adam he'd have walked down the high street. Actually if it was me I'd go put backup memories in the pizza guy or something, but *shrugs*. OK, that makes sense. Yes, at the apartment, Adam didn't touch Rhys, change his memories, etc. I wonder, if to be safe, it would have been safest to leave a note to themselves saying not to try and figure out what happened. Otherwise, it would be like that Star Trek ep where they make the mistake of leaving clues that make them suspicious and so they go back to the place they shouldn't have.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Feb 24, 2008 21:03:56 GMT -5
Okay, this was pretty good. I still have issues with Ianto - silly man. Who decides that someone may be playing games with your memory, and then goes, alone, and confronts that person? But he didn't. He was sitting there, after reading the diary and figuring out something was wrong and Adam found hm. I tend to think he would have gone to Jack, had Adam not found him first.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Feb 24, 2008 21:07:49 GMT -5
Aside from the squee factor of watching this on an actual telly, as opposed to BBC iPlayer, I really did enjoy this episode. I'm sure I won't be the only one who thought "Superstar" when Adam showed up. It being Torchwood, however, you really got the darker side of the sock puppet theater aspect, but it did lack the mind fuck quality of Superstar, because they tipped their hand immediately when Gwen walked in and said asked who this guy was. The most compelling part of the episode, for me, was how just a little memory change changed so much about Tosh and Owen. (Also Gwen and Ianto, but that was more "out there" and less personality implicit.) They actually became each other, to a great extent, even down to Owen wearing glasses and hoping against hope that Tosh would notice how he felt. I actually found Owen to be more tragic than Tosh...the possibility of what a good man he could have been: forthright with his feelings, apologizing when necessary, done in by self-hatred from childhood. I'm on the fence as to whether Tosh/Owen would be a good thing or not; either they are so similar that they belong together, or they are so similar they should run the hell away from each other. Definitely a rewatcher. And I haven't even gotten into the Jack stuff, but I really need to go and do laundry... I loved the Tosh/Owen flip/flop, too. That was definitely the best part of the ep. I think that Tosh would be good for Owen, but I'm completely unconvinced that Owen would be good for Tosh. What it DID do, though, was give me insight into a character I'd previously been on the fence between "distasteful" and "despicable" about. I don't dislike Owen quite so much as I did before. I didn't really like geeky Owen, either, though. Is there no Happy Medium Owen, somewhere between supergeeky and asshole? See, I don't see the memory-altered Tosh or Owen as "what they could have been" people. I see them as creations of Adam. So, I think he wanted an Owen who was "not cynical anymore", like he said, but I also think he wanted an Owen who was no competition for him. So, he made sure that he had memories that made him supergeeky.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Feb 24, 2008 21:10:06 GMT -5
Dave and I were trying to figure out what they were measuring, although we think we know the obvious answer. He was all, "You don't NEED measuring tape for that. Just lay them out side by side." Me: "That's sort of hard to do, right next to each other like that. I mean, they'd be separated by a few feet." Him: "No, no - face to face. The first person to touch the other wins." See, I never would have thought of that. I'd be like you, thinking about side by side. Definitely a guy thing. Heeee! Now, I know some guys who would feel the tape measure was a very good idea . . .
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Feb 24, 2008 21:16:23 GMT -5
I think he was thinking in terms of "guy/guy relationship", 'cause you can bet good money that two straight men wouldn't play the "whoever touches the other first wins" game. I don't know. I wonder if that applies to them when they're young and constantly comparing. ;d Though I can certainly see it being more likely in the guy/guy relationship instance. Well, young guys are also usually the one playing the "first one there wins" game, which is probably not the best goal to be reaching for, if you really think about it . . .
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Feb 24, 2008 21:21:28 GMT -5
I think because Jack wanted the memory so much, he talked himself into . . . not really trusting him, but in convincing himself it was worth it even if he wasn't trustworthy. yeah, but you were right in another post you wrote about it - once adam ruined the memories jack had no reason to keep them, no reason not to take the pill. seemed like a rather silly move on each of their parts to me. doesn't keep it from being icky though. yes, exactly. i always found those willow scenes to be especially chilling. Very chilling. Particularly the times when he's doing things and being so . . . pleasant. Acting like everyone's best friend.
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 24, 2008 22:22:51 GMT -5
Rhys saw Adam but was not touched by him, didn't have any memories implanted. If being seen was sufficient to sustain Adam he'd have walked down the high street. Actually if it was me I'd go put backup memories in the pizza guy or something, but *shrugs*. OK, that makes sense. Yes, at the apartment, Adam didn't touch Rhys, change his memories, etc. I wonder, if to be safe, it would have been safest to leave a note to themselves saying not to try and figure out what happened. Otherwise, it would be like that Star Trek ep where they make the mistake of leaving clues that make them suspicious and so they go back to the place they shouldn't have. Yeah, I kept thinking that's what was going to happen, except it didn't. Also, it was the end of the episode.
|
|
|
Post by beccaelizabeth on Feb 25, 2008 6:35:11 GMT -5
Rhys saw Adam but was not touched by him, didn't have any memories implanted. If being seen was sufficient to sustain Adam he'd have walked down the high street. Actually if it was me I'd go put backup memories in the pizza guy or something, but *shrugs*. OK, that makes sense. Yes, at the apartment, Adam didn't touch Rhys, change his memories, etc. I wonder, if to be safe, it would have been safest to leave a note to themselves saying not to try and figure out what happened. Otherwise, it would be like that Star Trek ep where they make the mistake of leaving clues that make them suspicious and so they go back to the place they shouldn't have. According to the website Jack left himself a mental note, ie whenever anybody asks Jack strongly thinks they should leave well alone. So that's what they're doing.
|
|
|
Post by Michelle on Feb 25, 2008 16:36:18 GMT -5
i'm not sure why jack trusted adam in the end (nor how adam brought up the memory when it looked like they weren't touching), but i feel so sorry for jack at having lost those memories. it was fascinating for me, as a viewer, to see all of them. i thought it was interesting that instead of tosh being angry that adam had messed with her memory, she seemed sad to let go of the false ones. i thought of his manipulating her into sex through false memories as a convoluted version of sexual assault. this episode reminded the rest of you of "superstar" but it reminded me of willow's memory manipulations in S6.Good call! I hadn't thought of that. It's a good thing Adam turned out to be the bad guy; I had an instantaneous, very visceral dislike for the character/actor as soon as I laid eyes on him.
|
|
|
Post by Michelle on Feb 25, 2008 16:41:19 GMT -5
So I'm wondering if Jack thought to go and give Rhys a retcon pill. 'Cause otherwise he's gonna think things are all mucked up again when Gwen gets home and now remembers him just fine but has no recollection of the past two days. I have to say I was incredibly relieved that neither Tosh nor Ianto will have any memory of Adam or what he did to them. But, like Erin, I'm sad that Owen will never remember the guy he was without all the baggage he's carrying—for once, I actually kinda liked him. Or, for that matter, that Tosh will lose her sense of confidence and happiness in her own skin. The way Owen and Tosh almost seemed to switch personalities was fascinating, suggesting that they may not be as mismatched as I previously believed. I agree, for the most part, but I have a few qualifications. I was amused by Owen's geeky personality, but I wouldn't say that I respected him. Ultimately, I was glad to have the old Owen back, even if he IS a bastard. And while I really liked the more confident version of Tosh, I didn't like her angry response to Owen's declaration of love. I don't think even Bastard!Owen would be that rude, were Tosh to declare her feelings.
|
|
|
Post by artemis on Feb 29, 2008 15:07:18 GMT -5
It's a good thing Adam turned out to be the bad guy; I had an instantaneous, very visceral dislike for the character/actor as soon as I laid eyes on him. me, too. i think the actor was good at projecting an "off" vibe - something not quite right about him. it was as if even the other chacters knew something was wrong with him on some level but weren't sure what - like how, as somone else has said in this thread, even the others seemed uneasy when gwen at first didn't recognize adam, and so relieved when she suddenly did.
|
|
|
Post by artemis on Feb 29, 2008 15:10:24 GMT -5
See, I don't see the memory-altered Tosh or Owen as "what they could have been" people. I see them as creations of Adam. So, I think he wanted an Owen who was "not cynical anymore", like he said, but I also think he wanted an Owen who was no competition for him. So, he made sure that he had memories that made him supergeeky. agreed. i got the impression that it was all a game to adam - that he enjoyed molding people into what he wanted them to be. for me the strongest, sharpest impression of this was when he was implanting the "memories" of murder in ianto's head and cheerfully said something like that it had been so long that he had almost forgotten how the most enjoyable part was implanting awful memories.
|
|