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Post by Rachael on Jun 16, 2008 8:16:41 GMT -5
I'd look at the Daily Show footage - that's where I first saw it. I just saw the clip from The Daily Show- WTF? That kind of gesture would only be acceptable amongst family and close friends, and possibly not even then, depending on how touchy the particular group is and how comfortable people are with others touching their neck and shoulders. Like, my dad does that sort of thing to me occasionally, out of affection, and I understand and accept it as such. But James doesn’t like it when my dad does it because he doesn’t like people touching his neck and he has a different relationship with my dad. But… okay. These are public figures, on camera, clearly not close in any way, and Merkel obviously was uncomfortable (to put it mildly; shocked, horrified, or disgusted is probably closer to the truth) with the gesture. There is no way on Earth that that was appropriate. What’s worst of all is that Bush comes across as the kind of person who either doesn’t understand or doesn’t care when he makes others feel uncomfortable or worse. I am so embarrassed. And sounds like you discovered the FIRST clip, the "backrub" move. There was another one this week. Less obviously, but, IMO, more egregious due to the sort of body language involved. Also, the fact that he clearly didn't learn from it the first time, when even the entire White House staff were horrified? Oy.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 16, 2008 12:03:04 GMT -5
I just saw the clip from The Daily Show- WTF? That kind of gesture would only be acceptable amongst family and close friends, and possibly not even then, depending on how touchy the particular group is and how comfortable people are with others touching their neck and shoulders. Like, my dad does that sort of thing to me occasionally, out of affection, and I understand and accept it as such. But James doesn’t like it when my dad does it because he doesn’t like people touching his neck and he has a different relationship with my dad. But… okay. These are public figures, on camera, clearly not close in any way, and Merkel obviously was uncomfortable (to put it mildly; shocked, horrified, or disgusted is probably closer to the truth) with the gesture. There is no way on Earth that that was appropriate. What’s worst of all is that Bush comes across as the kind of person who either doesn’t understand or doesn’t care when he makes others feel uncomfortable or worse. I am so embarrassed. And sounds like you discovered the FIRST clip, the "backrub" move. There was another one this week. Less obviously, but, IMO, more egregious due to the sort of body language involved. Also, the fact that he clearly didn't learn from it the first time, when even the entire White House staff were horrified? Oy. GWB does need to be taught some manners, here, without a doubt. It's unprofessional, and I just don't think Bush understands how it makes a woman feel, when she's in a business situation like that. As was said - I just don't think he "gets it." He is a strange bird, who would never have made it anywhere near the presidency if he'd been born into a working class family in Cleveland, for example. But I gotta add, if I had to pick the "recent president I'd trust the least with my daughter" I'd have to go with Bill Clinton. Of course, that was a different kind of problem. Bill had more smarts and professionalism in public than GWB, though I'm guessing he had less in private.
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Post by Onjel on Jun 16, 2008 12:22:15 GMT -5
I haven't seen the clip, but from what everyone describes, I have to say I would have been uncomfortable bordering on massively irritated had I been Angela Merkel. I suspect that GWB is acting like a "good ole boy" here, but his action diminishes Prime Minister Merkel in her position. It's like the equivalent of saying, "there, there now, li'l lady. . .." I'm betting he doesn't see it that way, seeing it more like a friendly gesture. But, can you imagine him doing that to, say, Margaret Thatcher or Golda Meir and getting away with it?
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 16, 2008 14:01:54 GMT -5
I haven't seen the clip, but from what everyone describes, I have to say I would have been uncomfortable bordering on massively irritated had I been Angela Merkel. I suspect that GWB is acting like a "good ole boy" here, but his action diminishes Prime Minister Merkel in her position. It's like the equivalent of saying, "there, there now, li'l lady. . .." I'm betting he doesn't see it that way, seeing it more like a friendly gesture. But, can you imagine him doing that to, say, Margaret Thatcher or Golda Meir and getting away with it? I wonder what the reaction would have been, if SHE had done that to HIM? Interesting to think about.
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Post by Sue on Jun 16, 2008 17:19:29 GMT -5
So. I just made my 2nd ever political donation. My first was during the primaries. Both times small amounts but .... just feel like I have to do something to support my candidate. [btw, I got an email from Al Gore announcing his endorsement of Mr. Obama which will be made at 8:30 EDT tonight on TV.]
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jun 16, 2008 20:45:15 GMT -5
I just saw the clip from The Daily Show- WTF? That kind of gesture would only be acceptable amongst family and close friends, and possibly not even then, depending on how touchy the particular group is and how comfortable people are with others touching their neck and shoulders. Like, my dad does that sort of thing to me occasionally, out of affection, and I understand and accept it as such. But James doesn’t like it when my dad does it because he doesn’t like people touching his neck and he has a different relationship with my dad. But… okay. These are public figures, on camera, clearly not close in any way, and Merkel obviously was uncomfortable (to put it mildly; shocked, horrified, or disgusted is probably closer to the truth) with the gesture. There is no way on Earth that that was appropriate. What’s worst of all is that Bush comes across as the kind of person who either doesn’t understand or doesn’t care when he makes others feel uncomfortable or worse. I am so embarrassed. And sounds like you discovered the FIRST clip, the "backrub" move. There was another one this week. Less obviously, but, IMO, more egregious due to the sort of body language involved. Also, the fact that he clearly didn't learn from it the first time, when even the entire White House staff were horrified? Oy. OK, I saw pictures of the second incident. I disagree that the gesture is a "arm about the shoulders to direct you where to walk," like you say, or that it is a male dominance thing. It looks to me like a buddy buddy gesture, which would be appropriate if they were, you know, close friends or family and comfortable with each other, and not, say, heads of state in front of a bunch of cameras.
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Post by Rachael on Jun 16, 2008 21:11:22 GMT -5
And sounds like you discovered the FIRST clip, the "backrub" move. There was another one this week. Less obviously, but, IMO, more egregious due to the sort of body language involved. Also, the fact that he clearly didn't learn from it the first time, when even the entire White House staff were horrified? Oy. OK, I saw pictures of the second incident. I disagree that the gesture is a "arm about the shoulders to direct you where to walk," like you say, or that it is a male dominance thing. It looks to me like a buddy buddy gesture, which would be appropriate if they were, you know, close friends or family and comfortable with each other, and not, say, heads of state in front of a bunch of cameras. You saw stills, then - I saw the actual footage. I'm actually pretty sure that gesture means (most of the time) what I said it does when done by a man to a woman. I'd agree with you if she was a guy friend, but men don't do that "buddy buddy" thing to women. I've had it done to me, by men who, ironically, were actually in subordinate positions relative to me, and it was specifically covered in one of my linguistics courses in college, actually.
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Post by Queen E on Jun 17, 2008 4:20:55 GMT -5
OK, I saw pictures of the second incident. I disagree that the gesture is a "arm about the shoulders to direct you where to walk," like you say, or that it is a male dominance thing. It looks to me like a buddy buddy gesture, which would be appropriate if they were, you know, close friends or family and comfortable with each other, and not, say, heads of state in front of a bunch of cameras. You saw stills, then - I saw the actual footage. I'm actually pretty sure that gesture means (most of the time) what I said it does when done by a man to a woman. I'd agree with you if she was a guy friend, but men don't do that "buddy buddy" thing to women. I've had it done to me, by men who, ironically, were actually in subordinate positions relative to me, and it was specifically covered in one of my linguistics courses in college, actually. I'm inclined to agree with you, Rachael, having seen the live footage. If they were standing and talking, and he flung his arm around her, it could be viewed as a "buddy" gesture. Since the footage is the two of them actually walking, it has more of a "guided" feel.
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Post by Karen on Jun 17, 2008 10:15:41 GMT -5
And sounds like you discovered the FIRST clip, the "backrub" move. There was another one this week. Less obviously, but, IMO, more egregious due to the sort of body language involved. Also, the fact that he clearly didn't learn from it the first time, when even the entire White House staff were horrified? Oy. GWB does need to be taught some manners, here, without a doubt. It's unprofessional, and I just don't think Bush understands how it makes a woman feel, when she's in a business situation like that. As was said - I just don't think he "gets it." He is a strange bird, who would never have made it anywhere near the presidency if he'd been born into a working class family in Cleveland, for example. But I gotta add, if I had to pick the "recent president I'd trust the least with my daughter" I'd have to go with Bill Clinton. Of course, that was a different kind of problem. Bill had more smarts and professionalism in public than GWB, though I'm guessing he had less in private. Bill is a horndog, that's for sure. But I don't let the women who are attracted to that kind of power and charisma off the hook that easily. I'm thinking he didn't have to do much touching to have the women falling at his feet, so to speak. Bush seems like such a phony people person (compared to Clinton, who I think genuinely connects), and that's why his inappropriate touching comes off as more pathetic than ishy to me.
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Post by Onjel on Jun 17, 2008 10:20:17 GMT -5
GWB does need to be taught some manners, here, without a doubt. It's unprofessional, and I just don't think Bush understands how it makes a woman feel, when she's in a business situation like that. As was said - I just don't think he "gets it." He is a strange bird, who would never have made it anywhere near the presidency if he'd been born into a working class family in Cleveland, for example. But I gotta add, if I had to pick the "recent president I'd trust the least with my daughter" I'd have to go with Bill Clinton. Of course, that was a different kind of problem. Bill had more smarts and professionalism in public than GWB, though I'm guessing he had less in private. Bill is a horndog, that's for sure. But I don't let the women who are attracted to that kind of power and charisma off the hook that easily. I'm thinking he didn't have to do much touching to have the women falling at his feet, so to speak. Bush seems like such a phony people person (compared to Clinton, who I think genuinely connects), and that's why his inappropriate touching comes off as more pathetic than ishy to me. One of the attorneys who used to hang out here at the office is friends with Bill and Hilary Clinton and he tells me that Bill's charisma, especially when it comes to women, is unbelievable. Women who you would think are staid and even prudish have been known to utter, "I would give anything to shower with that man." They practically fall at his feet. Hil has quite the challenge with that one. ;D
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Post by Sara on Jun 17, 2008 10:23:02 GMT -5
GWB does need to be taught some manners, here, without a doubt. It's unprofessional, and I just don't think Bush understands how it makes a woman feel, when she's in a business situation like that. As was said - I just don't think he "gets it." He is a strange bird, who would never have made it anywhere near the presidency if he'd been born into a working class family in Cleveland, for example. But I gotta add, if I had to pick the "recent president I'd trust the least with my daughter" I'd have to go with Bill Clinton. Of course, that was a different kind of problem. Bill had more smarts and professionalism in public than GWB, though I'm guessing he had less in private. Bill is a horndog, that's for sure. But I don't let the women who are attracted to that kind of power and charisma off the hook that easily. I'm thinking he didn't have to do much touching to have the women falling at his feet, so to speak. Bush seems like such a phony people person (compared to Clinton, who I think genuinely connects), and that's why his inappropriate touching comes off as more pathetic than ishy to me. A former coworker of mine, John Price, told me once about meeting Clinton when Bill was governor of Arkansas—he came by where John was working, shook hands with folks, stuff like that. When John once again encountered Clinton years later, Clinton still remembered John's name and where they'd met previously. So yeah, I agree that Bill truly enjoys and thrives on meeting and talking with people.
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Post by Karen on Jun 17, 2008 10:26:57 GMT -5
Bill is a horndog, that's for sure. But I don't let the women who are attracted to that kind of power and charisma off the hook that easily. I'm thinking he didn't have to do much touching to have the women falling at his feet, so to speak. Bush seems like such a phony people person (compared to Clinton, who I think genuinely connects), and that's why his inappropriate touching comes off as more pathetic than ishy to me. One of the attorneys who used to hang out here at the office is friends with Bill and Hilary Clinton and he tells me that Bill's charisma, especially when it comes to women, is unbelievable. Women who you would think are staid and even prudish have been known to utter, "I would give anything to shower with that man." They practically fall at his feet. Hil has quite the challenge with that one. ;D I'm pretty sure she knew what she was in for from the get-go.
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Post by Karen on Jun 17, 2008 10:31:38 GMT -5
Bill is a horndog, that's for sure. But I don't let the women who are attracted to that kind of power and charisma off the hook that easily. I'm thinking he didn't have to do much touching to have the women falling at his feet, so to speak. Bush seems like such a phony people person (compared to Clinton, who I think genuinely connects), and that's why his inappropriate touching comes off as more pathetic than ishy to me. A former coworker of mine, John Price, told me once about meeting Clinton when Bill was governor of Arkansas—he came by where John was working, shook hands with folks, stuff like that. When John once again encountered Clinton years later, Clinton still remembered John's name and where they'd met previously. So yeah, I agree that Bill truly enjoys and thrives on meeting and talking with people. Yeah, because he does feed on that human contact, I'm sure he's just as crushed as Hillary that she didn't make the nomination.
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Post by Sara on Jun 17, 2008 14:00:41 GMT -5
Bill is a horndog, that's for sure. But I don't let the women who are attracted to that kind of power and charisma off the hook that easily. I'm thinking he didn't have to do much touching to have the women falling at his feet, so to speak. Bush seems like such a phony people person (compared to Clinton, who I think genuinely connects), and that's why his inappropriate touching comes off as more pathetic than ishy to me. One of the attorneys who used to hang out here at the office is friends with Bill and Hilary Clinton and he tells me that Bill's charisma, especially when it comes to women, is unbelievable. Women who you would think are staid and even prudish have been known to utter, "I would give anything to shower with that man." They practically fall at his feet. Hil has quite the challenge with that one. ;D That's what John said too, that Bill's charisma is simply off the charts.
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Post by Rachael on Jun 17, 2008 15:03:57 GMT -5
GWB does need to be taught some manners, here, without a doubt. It's unprofessional, and I just don't think Bush understands how it makes a woman feel, when she's in a business situation like that. As was said - I just don't think he "gets it." He is a strange bird, who would never have made it anywhere near the presidency if he'd been born into a working class family in Cleveland, for example. But I gotta add, if I had to pick the "recent president I'd trust the least with my daughter" I'd have to go with Bill Clinton. Of course, that was a different kind of problem. Bill had more smarts and professionalism in public than GWB, though I'm guessing he had less in private. Bill is a horndog, that's for sure. But I don't let the women who are attracted to that kind of power and charisma off the hook that easily. I'm thinking he didn't have to do much touching to have the women falling at his feet, so to speak. Bush seems like such a phony people person (compared to Clinton, who I think genuinely connects), and that's why his inappropriate touching comes off as more pathetic than ishy to me. It wasn't even the "ish" factor...it was the display of dominance factor...combined with the fact that he clearly learned NOTHING from the last time he groped her.
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