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Post by Sharky on Aug 8, 2005 13:20:34 GMT -5
I agree about Snape. As to the red--let's take it a step further. What if Voldemort is somehow Harry's Horcrux as well? After all, Voldemort attempted to kill Harry only to have the spell backfire on him. If the spell truly did bounce back against the caster, then in a literal sense you could say Harry attempted to kill Voldemort. Heck, it's entirely likely that it would have killed Voldemort if not for his Horcruxes--meaning baby Harry had technically performed the act necessary to create a Horcux in the first place. But then how would he have known what to do next... Yeah, I haven't completely worked this idea through. Well, given that Voldemort was the first to attempt the creation of multiple Horcruxes, there was no telling what might have occurred with the creation of the seventh. Maybe the creation of the seventh was one division too many, and that's what rebounded onto Voldemort. I like the idea that Voldemort might be a Horcrux for Harry as well, but it may not have taken volition on Harry's part.
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Post by Matthew on Aug 8, 2005 13:45:10 GMT -5
Hi Pixi! I was not surprised that Dumbledore died. I'd been seeing stories about bookies taking bets on which character would die and he was their number one choice. And I was stunned! that Snape killed him. I'm still trying to convince myself that this is all part of a deep game and that Dumbledore wanted Snape to killl him and that's why he said, "please." Maybe Dumbledore knew he wouldn't recover from retrieving the Horcrux. I want Snape to be redeemed. Speaking of redemption, I liked that Draco was given some shades of gray instead of being a melodrama villain. And I loved, loved, loved Ginny and Harry together. And doesn't the final scene of Ron and Hermione saying to Harry that they knew what they were signing up for and could have backed out long ago remind you of the end of BtVS, with Xander and Willow sticking by Buffy to the end? I also loved how Fleur finally convinced Mrs. Weasley that she really loved Bill. Awww. Did you think of Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers being the equivalent of Spinal Tap drummers or is mine the only mind that works that way? Can't wait for the next one! I particularly liked the way Harry FINALLY realized that he wanted Ginny... and the "beast in his chest" metaphors. And that scene where he walks through the door, and blammo.. Dang. Smoking hot. I'm trying to come up with some way that Snape is still actually Dumbledore's man, that he did the deed to save Malfoy from falling that last step (at Dumbledore's request), and that his reasoning is, in its cold way, the downfall of Voldemort is bigger than Dumbledore. After all, I don't see him taunting Harry in the woods, duelling him, without just simply killing him, unless he was playing a delaying game. Snape is not a gloater when there is work to be done. I'm PISSED that Ginny let him break up with her so easily, though I think that's gonna last only halfway through the next bloody book: though I admire the way she did it: full of understanding of him and his mission. And I have to say? I howled when I read "There's no reason to call me 'sir,' Professor." Guessed that the HBP was Snape, until they threw in the red herring with the publishing date (these is some long-lived people, no?).
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Post by Matthew on Aug 8, 2005 13:47:03 GMT -5
Hi Pixi! I was not surprised that Dumbledore died. I'd been seeing stories about bookies taking bets on which character would die and he was their number one choice. And I was stunned! that Snape killed him. I'm still trying to convince myself that this is all part of a deep game and that Dumbledore wanted Snape to killl him and that's why he said, "please." Maybe Dumbledore knew he wouldn't recover from retrieving the Horcrux. I want Snape to be redeemed. Speaking of redemption, I liked that Draco was given some shades of gray instead of being a melodrama villain. And I loved, loved, loved Ginny and Harry together. And doesn't the final scene of Ron and Hermione saying to Harry that they knew what they were signing up for and could have backed out long ago remind you of the end of BtVS, with Xander and Willow sticking by Buffy to the end? I also loved how Fleur finally convinced Mrs. Weasley that she really loved Bill. Awww. Did you think of Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers being the equivalent of Spinal Tap drummers or is mine the only mind that works that way? Can't wait for the next one! Speaking of the layers of Draco - one of the most fascinating scenes in this unveiling is the scene of his conversations with Moaning Mrytle. It's sad that the only person he had to go to and open up to is a ghost. I wonder what happens to him when he is dragged away. And truly - I was surprised to see his character opened up and given those shades of grey as he has always been thoroughly Badass/First Class Villain through and through. I wouldn't go quite so far as to give him the OPJ label but for the first time we are shown something other than a stock character. Agreed: It makes it that much more complex and true-to-life that he is looking like hell, that he is losing it, in the face of a terrible choice.
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Post by Matthew on Aug 8, 2005 13:48:55 GMT -5
Becky, Pixi, I'm with you in suspecting Snape is playing a deeper game than we realize at the moment. Plus it's worth remembering the Unbreakable Vow he made--Snape swore that if Draco didn't accomplish his mission, he would. Actually, now that I think about it--I wonder if Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore that he would help defeat Voldemort no matter what? I'd have to imagine that if one makes two such Vows, the first would supercede the second; however, Snape had to figure Draco knew about the Vow he'd made to Draco's mother--if Snape didn't follow through, then he truly would be exposed as a traitor within the Death Eaters' midst. I dunno--I, like the rest of you, can't help but believe there's more to Snape's story than meets the eye. I can't say as I'm surprised Ron and Hermione are destined for coupledom, although I always had a soft spot in my heart for a Harry/Hermione pairing. However, I also adore Ginny and am glad that Harry finally woke up and smelled the flowers where she's concerned. And can I just note how happy I am that Harry did much less yelling this time around? ETA: A big SQUEEE! over the Tonks/Lupin development. If anyone's interested, I once came across an absolutely terrific fic about the two of them that's set during Order of the Phoenix: Shifts. Doesn't have to actually supercede it: so long as it is fulfilled at the same time, does it?
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Post by Matthew on Aug 8, 2005 13:52:00 GMT -5
Yep - narrative flow. This book didn't have the narrative urgency of one unifying storyline for me. It had lots of neat little stories (i.e. Tonks and Lupin) but no biggie like what is the Chamber of Secrets? Or what is the Philosopher's Stone? There didn't seem to be the same emphasis on discovering the identity of the Half-Blood Prince. I'm not complaining, because I did quite like the book, but it did feel to me like it was more about getting the chess pieces in place for the next game than usual. I agree. Entertainment Weekly, by the way, made an excellent case as to the identity of the mysterious R.A.B. who stole the locket Dumbledore and Harry sought: Sirius Black's deceased brother Regulus. Whoever wrote the article for the magazine remembered that when Harry and the gang were helping Sirius clean the family home in the last book, they came upon a locket that Sirius had never seen and which proved impossible to open. Wonder when Harry will remember about the locket in Grimaud Place--or that he knows of someone with the right initials. YEEEEEEEEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (this is why I was asking if she outlined this all out first: this kinda crap) And that Mudungus had been selling stuff filched from 12 Grimauld place off for a while.. it could be anywhere now.
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Post by Queen E on Aug 8, 2005 14:14:45 GMT -5
Becky, Pixi, I'm with you in suspecting Snape is playing a deeper game than we realize at the moment. Plus it's worth remembering the Unbreakable Vow he made--Snape swore that if Draco didn't accomplish his mission, he would. Actually, now that I think about it--I wonder if Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore that he would help defeat Voldemort no matter what? I'd have to imagine that if one makes two such Vows, the first would supercede the second; however, Snape had to figure Draco knew about the Vow he'd made to Draco's mother--if Snape didn't follow through, then he truly would be exposed as a traitor within the Death Eaters' midst. I dunno--I, like the rest of you, can't help but believe there's more to Snape's story than meets the eye. I can't say as I'm surprised Ron and Hermione are destined for coupledom, although I always had a soft spot in my heart for a Harry/Hermione pairing. However, I also adore Ginny and am glad that Harry finally woke up and smelled the flowers where she's concerned. And can I just note how happy I am that Harry did much less yelling this time around? ETA: A big SQUEEE! over the Tonks/Lupin development. If anyone's interested, I once came across an absolutely terrific fic about the two of them that's set during Order of the Phoenix: Shifts. Doesn't have to actually supercede it: so long as it is fulfilled at the same time, does it? Precisely. I've also wondered if Dumbledore knew he was dying already due to the poison in the cup, and the "please" he says to Snape is to both end his life (and pain) and get Snape closer to Voldemort (making it that much easier to defeat him.
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Post by Sharky on Aug 8, 2005 14:26:08 GMT -5
Doesn't have to actually supercede it: so long as it is fulfilled at the same time, does it? Precisely. I've also wondered if Dumbledore knew he was dying already due to the poison in the cup, and the "please" he says to Snape is to both end his life (and pain) and get Snape closer to Voldemort (making it that much easier to defeat him. Certainly plausible. I'm just not convinced Dumbledore is dead. Why use a curse that blasts him out of the tower? One reason would be to work a switch of some sort during the time that it would take to discover the body.
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Post by Sharky on Aug 8, 2005 15:48:11 GMT -5
Also, a focus of the book this time was how Harry and his friends were learning to do non-verbal spells. What if Snape did a non-verbal transportation spell on Dumbledore while saying the words for the other spell? Granted, the words he said were for the spell Voldemort used to kill Harry's folks. But that could have just been for camouflage.
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Post by Becky H on Aug 8, 2005 19:53:10 GMT -5
Also, a focus of the book this time was how Harry and his friends were learning to do non-verbal spells. What if Snape did a non-verbal transportation spell on Dumbledore while saying the words for the other spell? Granted, the words he said were for the spell Voldemort used to kill Harry's folks. But that could have just been for camouflage. I like your optimism, Sharky! And what's with the two brooms oh-so-conveniently left on top of the tower? Who might have been able to escape on them in a bit of yet-unexplained spellcasting and subterfuge?
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Post by Matthew on Aug 9, 2005 3:18:33 GMT -5
Is anyone else with me in thinking that trusting Kreacher in any way was about the stupidest thing Harry did in this book? His injunction to the elf still may have left some loophole, allowing him to contact Bellatrix or Narcissa... have to re-read that section.
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Post by Becky H on Aug 9, 2005 6:30:01 GMT -5
Is anyone else with me in thinking that trusting Kreacher in any way was about the stupidest thing Harry did in this book? His injunction to the elf still may have left some loophole, allowing him to contact Bellatrix or Narcissa... have to re-read that section. Right there with you, Scooter. Kreacher on the loose in Grimaud Place with a Horcrux locket possibly in the house = trouble.
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Post by Rob on May 31, 2006 5:13:51 GMT -5
I've read the last few chapters several times now, and I'm convinced Dumbledore had already sacrificed himself by drinking that potion; his death was simply a matter of time. That's why he insisted on seeing Snape, rather than Pomfrey. I can't imagine anyone else at Hogwarts finding it in themselves to euthanize Dumbledore.
Obviously this also establishes Snape as a loyal follower of the Dark Lord, which can (and will) be useful to Harry when the time comes...assuming he can get his head around the idea. I'd guess Hermione will play a major role in that regard.
Either way, I love how Rowling has never taken the easy way with Snape. He shows no signs of compassion for Harry whatsoever...yet I firmly believe he'll be a White Hat in the end. It's easy creating a lovable bad guy; a highly unlikable good guy is another proposition entirely.
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Post by Rob on May 31, 2006 5:22:13 GMT -5
As for the relationships, I'm a little frustrated. Harry does his Peter Parker imitation by dumping Ginny...as if anything he does can make a member of the Weasley family any safer. They're all targets now. Fleur and Bill are still going to be happy ever after, and Tonks and Lupin (didn't see THAT one coming) appear to be headed in that direction. All these are well and good.
Having said that...could we please have a little Ron/Hermione snogging? Maybe just a little? 'Cause all these other relationships are secondary to me.
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Post by Rob on May 31, 2006 5:51:45 GMT -5
And doesn't the final scene of Ron and Hermione saying to Harry that they knew what they were signing up for and could have backed out long ago remind you of the end of BtVS, with Xander and Willow sticking by Buffy to the end? No question about it. Hermione and Ron = Willow and Xander. Even their individual strengths and weaknesses are similar...though their personalities vary a bit. Unlike Willow, Hermione was never a the shrinking violet, for example. There is one clear distinction, though: Harry has his moments of feeling bitter and isolated, sure...but he strongly dislikes keeping anything from Ron and Hermione. Even his attempt at distancing himself on the last couple of pages was half-hearted at best. He makes no bones about needing them at his side desperately. In fact, I'm wondering if it might take all three of them battling Voldemort simultaneously to win. That would be a cool way to end it, if you ask me. Love conquering evil.
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Alexandra
S'cubie
Founder
"You never had it so good as me. Never."
Posts: 108
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Post by Alexandra on Sept 17, 2006 12:43:17 GMT -5
Snape as a good guy - hmmm.
Rowling has been quoted several times as cautioning readers about their belief that Snape will turn out to be on the side of The Light. She keeps saying to interviewers that Snape is not a nice man and they should remember that. She may be playing a double game, but she, of all people has to say only things that will not come back to make her a liar about the ending.
She has given Snape a reason for changing sides - when he discovers he inadvertantly caused the death of Lily Potter (I don't think he gave a rat's bum about James Potter).
What has always stumped me is why Snape hates Harry Potter so much. Snape hated his father, but apparently not his mother, unless he felt rejected by her. But she is always portrayed as kind.
But why would a grown man concentrate so much hatred on a small eleven year old boy, being absolutely mean from the get-go? It seems very odd, always has.
Didn't he mutter a spell to keep Harry safe in the first book/movie on the Quidditch field when Quirrell was trying to hurt Harry? Was he aware of Quirrell/Voldmort already and protecting Harry invisibly?
Snape's animosity makes for a nice ongoing conflict during each year at Hogwarts which is convenient for the author, slapping in nasty digs against Harry while he struggles against the main issue of each book. But even though Snape is Slytherin and Harry is Gryffindor, that shouldn't have created the attitude Snape has. Harry has only mirrored Snape's behavior.
In "Order of the Phoenix" chapter eleven, the sorting hat chanted a long warning and at the end it said,
"O, know the perils, read the signs, The warning history shows, For our Hogwarts is in danger, From external deadly foes, And we must unite inside her, Or we'll crumble from within,..."
Did that happen already with the breaching of the school by the Death Eaters? Will more crumbling go on now that Dumbledore is gone? How would the different schools unite? Who could lead such a difficult enterprise? Snape?
Snape as a good guy- hmmm.
Alexandra
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