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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 18, 2009 11:54:59 GMT -5
Hee! Speaking of last tokes, we totally thought that Roslyn should have went there. But burning the book was a good metaphor for burning the past and somehow paralled Kara's burning of herself. Which as Sara commented - we can't imagine what that felt like. A mind boggling episode, this. What I don't get is if Kara isn't the 5th Cylon, then how and why is she existing? Exactly- whatever it is, it's weird enough to freak Leoben out, which isn't easy to do. Resurection, reincarnation, or revivification? Julia, or some weird splitting of universes? What confuses me is that he seemed to be anticipating something (which is not unusual since he seems to know a lot) and *then* he freaked out.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 18, 2009 11:55:47 GMT -5
How, exactly, does one distinguish a cylon, particularly a hybrid, particularly one that can grow and age, from a human? Wasn't that in the very earliest of episodes? Baltar claimed to have a test but he was faking it? And, if you can't tell one from the other; and since apparently they have the free will to be loyal to either side----then what the heck is the difference? All Excellent Questions.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 18, 2009 13:29:33 GMT -5
Bear McCreary talks about the scoring for the episode here. At the very end he says: "Somewhere in the score to this episode I’ve hidden a clue about the end of the series. Good hunting. " I have no idea what that means, but there you go.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 18, 2009 13:33:44 GMT -5
The bit with Ellen and Tigh at the end makes me think of the idea of soulmates being reborn and finding each other all over again (as seen in What Dreams May Come and many other sources). I think it adds yet another layer to their relationship. At the very beginning, Ellen and Tigh just seemed like fuck buddies, but their relationship has been become so complex and interesting over the course of the series.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 18, 2009 22:59:34 GMT -5
Rewatching the episode, and I have to say that the shots of flowing water are very beautiful and mesmerizing.
Other things I noticed:
Dee chants "don't give up" in the shuttle on the way back to Galactica. Her suicide isn't so unexpected if you are paying attention to the signs.
The Agathons are mostly invested in being together as a family and not so much in finding Earth (after all, they were still on Caprica when the decision to find earth was made), so it's fitting that they should be more upbeat when everyone else is so morose.
They did some sort of biological test (carbon dating? DNA testing?) to determine that the skeletons were Cylons. So there is some sort of minor but distinct difference between Cylons and humans.
I wonder if Leoben's initial hesistance and reluctance vis a vis Kara was due to whatever programming the Cylons had about not asking certain questions (like how they weren't supposed to ask about the Final Five) and then when he learned the knowledge that he wasn't meant to know (that Kara's not Kara) he freaked and ran.
This idea of moving beyond the scriptures makes me think of the point in Babylon 5 when the Minbari could no longer be guided by the "prophecies" of Valenn.
Adama comes across as real ugly in this episode. Kudos to EJO.
I caught the story about the foxes this time. I sounds like an allegory of the predicament the humans face in the show. There are three options: fight, swim, or drown. Hmm.
How does D'Anna know that Cavill won't find Earth? Does he not know where it is? I was thinking that that's the next thing that would happen, the other Cylons finding the place and that they will probably contribute another piece to the puzzle.
Ellen trapped under the rubble reminded me of D'Anna trapped under the rubble in Downloaded.
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Post by Rachael on Jan 20, 2009 16:33:04 GMT -5
So, you think the final Cylon is . . . everyone? I've been on the "everyone is a Cylon" train for a long time...though clearly a slightly different strain/species. I'm not sure I buy into it being Ellen, either, because of Tigh's established pattern of seeing all women as Ellen at times.
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Post by Rachael on Jan 20, 2009 16:36:38 GMT -5
Heartbreaking! Dualla is killing me. And now what do you tell them all. What do you say? Well, I know one thing I wouldn't have done. I wouldn't have pushed past all the expectant faces and run to hide in my cabin like a little girl. She's the President; it's her job, however hard, to push past her own feelings and think of her constituency. And up to now, she's been pretty good at it. Another question, which may be answered as I read forward - raise your hand if you knew Dee was in a really bad place. Dave was surprised when she offed herself; I just stared at him and said she had clearly been losing her mind - how did he miss that? Hell, I was petrified that she'd do something to the baby, since that's what sometimes happens when people see the entire future as lost. (Though that's more often men than women.)
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Post by Rachael on Jan 20, 2009 16:40:59 GMT -5
Wow. Leoben scared. That's something I've never seen before. i know! freaked-out leoben freaked ME out. Well, when scary things get scared. . . .
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Post by Rachael on Jan 20, 2009 16:44:42 GMT -5
How, exactly, does one distinguish a cylon, particularly a hybrid, particularly one that can grow and age, from a human? Wasn't that in the very earliest of episodes? Baltar claimed to have a test but he was faking it? And, if you can't tell one from the other; and since apparently they have the free will to be loyal to either side----then what the heck is the difference? Well, there's clearly some difference between the "humans" and the cylons, since they don't easily interbreed. What it is remains to be seen; could just be millenia of drift, for all we really know.
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Post by Rachael on Jan 20, 2009 16:48:58 GMT -5
Rewatching the episode, and I have to say that the shots of flowing water are very beautiful and mesmerizing. Other things I noticed: Dee chants "don't give up" in the shuttle on the way back to Galactica. Her suicide isn't so unexpected if you are paying attention to the signs. This is what I'm saying. She is clearly Not Okay.
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Post by Sue on Jan 20, 2009 17:30:25 GMT -5
Heartbreaking! Dualla is killing me. And now what do you tell them all. What do you say? Well, I know one thing I wouldn't have done. I wouldn't have pushed past all the expectant faces and run to hide in my cabin like a little girl. She's the President; it's her job, however hard, to push past her own feelings and think of her constituency. And up to now, she's been pretty good at it. Another question, which may be answered as I read forward - raise your hand if you knew Dee was in a really bad place. Dave was surprised when she offed herself; I just stared at him and said she had clearly been losing her mind - how did he miss that? Hell, I was petrified that she'd do something to the baby, since that's what sometimes happens when people see the entire future as lost. (Though that's more often men than women.) Yes. I was also worried about the baby. Maybe we were supposed to think that babysitting the hope of the future was what changed her into upbeat Barbie on her date. I was scratching my head going "wasn't she suicidal a few minutes (hours?) ago?" So, not surprised by the suicide---it made much more sense than her upbeat persona.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 20, 2009 17:48:36 GMT -5
Heartbreaking! Dualla is killing me. And now what do you tell them all. What do you say? Well, I know one thing I wouldn't have done. I wouldn't have pushed past all the expectant faces and run to hide in my cabin like a little girl. She's the President; it's her job, however hard, to push past her own feelings and think of her constituency. And up to now, she's been pretty good at it. Another question, which may be answered as I read forward - raise your hand if you knew Dee was in a really bad place. Dave was surprised when she offed herself; I just stared at him and said she had clearly been losing her mind - how did he miss that? Hell, I was petrified that she'd do something to the baby, since that's what sometimes happens when people see the entire future as lost. (Though that's more often men than women.) I didn't see it coming the first time through. Of course I was so focused on thinking that she was a Cylon (figuring that she had made a connection with the pocket watch and the jacks like Tyrol made with the wall) and trying to figure out how that fit in with "not in the fleet." I hadn't even thought about if she would do something to the baby, but that would have been a great parallel with Caprica killing the baby in the mini-series.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 20, 2009 18:53:03 GMT -5
Heartbreaking! Dualla is killing me. And now what do you tell them all. What do you say? Well, I know one thing I wouldn't have done. I wouldn't have pushed past all the expectant faces and run to hide in my cabin like a little girl. She's the President; it's her job, however hard, to push past her own feelings and think of her constituency. And up to now, she's been pretty good at it. Another question, which may be answered as I read forward - raise your hand if you knew Dee was in a really bad place. Dave was surprised when she offed herself; I just stared at him and said she had clearly been losing her mind - how did he miss that? Hell, I was petrified that she'd do something to the baby, since that's what sometimes happens when people see the entire future as lost. (Though that's more often men than women.) You know, I'm not inclined to be sympathetic towards Roslin's despair (or the despair of any of the other characters) because I always figured that there was a distinct possibility that, when they found Earth, it would turn out not to be what they expected. I wasn't expecting a nuclear wasteland, but when we got the soaring music and cheering at the end of the last episode and there were a couple of minutes left, I knew for sure that Earth wasn't going to be what they hoped for. Also, I and the rest of the audience now know that there are 10 or whatever episodes left and everything will be resolved one way or another in the end. But the thing is, none of the characters ever allowed for the tiniest possibility that Earth wasn't going to be great place for them to finally settle down. And they don't know that there is going to be some sort of resolution in 10 episodes. To them, their driving motivation is gone and the future is completely uncertain. Because my perspective is so different from the characters in this episode, I didn't really connect with the characters' emotions the first time through at all. Even to the point that I figured that Dee must have committed suicide because she realized she was a Cylon, because Earth not being what she expected didn't seem like a good enough reason (because she should have left that possibility open to begin with). It's only the second time through that I was able to see things from the characters' perspectives, but even then only on an intellectual level. To me, it's really important that I never be so sure of my convictions that I don't leave any room for them to be contradicted; to do otherwise seems like a very dangerous proposition, as this episode attests. Because the characters didn't do that at all, I kind of feel like a lot of the despair they are feeling they brought upon themselves. That's probably not what Ron Moore was hoping for, but there you go.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jan 20, 2009 20:43:00 GMT -5
Well, I know one thing I wouldn't have done. I wouldn't have pushed past all the expectant faces and run to hide in my cabin like a little girl. She's the President; it's her job, however hard, to push past her own feelings and think of her constituency. And up to now, she's been pretty good at it. Another question, which may be answered as I read forward - raise your hand if you knew Dee was in a really bad place. Dave was surprised when she offed herself; I just stared at him and said she had clearly been losing her mind - how did he miss that? Hell, I was petrified that she'd do something to the baby, since that's what sometimes happens when people see the entire future as lost. (Though that's more often men than women.) You know, I'm not inclined to be sympathetic towards Roslin's despair (or the despair of any of the other characters) because I always figured that there was a distinct possibility that, when they found Earth, it would turn out not to be what they expected. I wasn't expecting a nuclear wasteland, but when we got the soaring music and cheering at the end of the last episode and there were a couple of minutes left, I knew for sure that Earth wasn't going to be what they hoped for. Also, I and the rest of the audience now know that there are 10 or whatever episodes left and everything will be resolved one way or another in the end. But the thing is, none of the characters ever allowed for the tiniest possibility that Earth wasn't going to be great place for them to finally settle down. And they don't know that there is going to be some sort of resolution in 10 episodes. To them, their driving motivation is gone and the future is completely uncertain. Because my perspective is so different from the characters in this episode, I didn't really connect with the characters' emotions the first time through at all. Even to the point that I figured that Dee must have committed suicide because she realized she was a Cylon, because Earth not being what she expected didn't seem like a good enough reason (because she should have left that possibility open to begin with). It's only the second time through that I was able to see things from the characters' perspectives, but even then only on an intellectual level. To me, it's really important that I never be so sure of my convictions that I don't leave any room for them to be contradicted; to do otherwise seems like a very dangerous proposition, as this episode attests. Because the characters didn't do that at all, I kind of feel like a lot of the despair they are feeling they brought upon themselves. That's probably not what Ron Moore was hoping for, but there you go. Wow, this comes across really long and rambly. I think that what I was trying to say was that while the characters may be in dire straits, I don't think that this is one of the darkest episodes (as Ron Moore asserted on the podcast) for the audience because their knowledge of storytelling tropes and narrative structure gives them a different perspective from the characters.
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Post by artemis on Feb 1, 2009 15:35:37 GMT -5
liz, i think the reason they didn't think of that possibility (or at least, most of them didn't) is because they didn't just have a belief - they had faith.
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