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Post by Squeemonster on Feb 15, 2009 13:38:15 GMT -5
I feel like there was so much going on in this episode, but I don't have a lot to say at the moment. Maybe later. Yeah, I was feeling the same way. Not that I ever say much about the eps, but I feel like there was a lot of info that just didn't stick in my brain. This whole second half of the season so far has been one big adrenaline and info overload, for me. It's been a crazy ride, but one that I'm gonna have to rewatch a few times to retain and understand all the info that they were throwing out there for us. Not that I'm complaining . . . . .
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Post by Squeemonster on Feb 15, 2009 16:56:56 GMT -5
Couple of LJ links that are helping me sort through all the OMGWTFTMIBBQ!-ness of BSG lately: asta77's take on the info we were given in this ep and daygloparker made a diagram. ;D I need a diagram for this whole freakin' series because my brain has been on scramble-watch since the last half of this season has started. I think best with visuals.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 15, 2009 18:37:34 GMT -5
OK, I just started wondering one thing.
When we saw Kobol, it was lush and green and not unlike the rural Pacific Northwest ;D . What would be wrong with resettling it? Its a planet that has meaning for all of them and they already know where it is and that it will support life. My memory is really fuzzy, and I can't remember if there was any reason not to stay there other than the fact that they were looking for Earth.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 15, 2009 18:46:48 GMT -5
Couple of LJ links that are helping me sort through all the OMGWTFTMIBBQ!-ness of BSG lately: asta77's take on the info we were given in this ep and daygloparker made a diagram. ;D I need a diagram for this whole freakin' series because my brain has been on scramble-watch since the last half of this season has started. I think best with visuals. Very helpful. Here is the twop recaplet summary by Jacob. If I actually have this straight: Thirteen Tribes set out from Kobol, and the Thirteenth (Cylons) settled on Earth, where they stopped resurrecting and had babies instead. They created robots, I think, who went crazy on them and threw them a big old war just like ours did. Luckily, a group of five scientist-types were able to rediscover resurrection technology, and download themselves into new bodies at the moment of their holocaust. (After being warned by mysterious and invisible Sexy Chip People, no less.) Tory and Galen were the hot young couple, Saul and Ellen were the hot old couple, and Sam was apparently like what if Bob Dylan hung out with Watson and Crick. So they took a sublight voyage backwards along Athena's Arrow, to find the other Tribes and tell them in no uncertain terms, Do Not Fuck With Robots.
Sadly, the robots did not go unfucked with. The F5 got here too late, but forged the Armistice out of promises to help the Centurions create skinjobs. This they did: eight humanoid models, to further the toasters' goal of becoming more like their creators (as seen in the whole Hybrid lineage). Yes, I did say eight models. For a total of thirteen, at the fulcrum point of which is Seven, a model named Daniel that never made it off the production floor (except for the one that knocked up Socrata Thrace, I will bet you one trillion dollars) because Cavil, the firstborn son, was jealous of him in an insane Biblical grabbing-the-foot kinda way. Then he murdered and boxed the F5, and released them every few years into the population until the holocaust was ready to go. Which is where we came in.
The reason that Cavil is such a dick, though, is because he resents the Five, particularly Ellen, for creating him in such an old, creepy body. They seem to agree that the F5 made the human bodies and weird hormonal imbalances we've grown to love in the Significant Seven because the One True God would approve of that -- but then also, the OTG seems to have been invented by the Centurions in the first place, which makes no sense. Even Chief finds that weird, so I'm sure there's more to it. (Like, maybe a whole series coming to your screen fairly soon, with a writing staff including but not limited to Jane, the wonderful fellow who wrote this episode, and Michael Taylor.) So Brother John Cavil gives a fairly moving and convincing speech for why he's so pissed off, and you finally get Cavil: he's basically like Pinocchio going, "Really? Lederhosen? Fuckin' forever?" Only instead of singing a little song about it and kicking Ellen in her shapely Gepetto shins, he knowingly and nastily:
Destroyed utterly the life and civilizations on twelve planets, burnt the knowledge of their creators out of his brothers and sisters, killed Daniel and boxed Three, wiped and boxed the Final Five just to make sure they ended up in the holocaust, had a day-long conversation with Chief about how he wasn't a Cylon even though he totally was, tried his best to kill off the idea of God(s) Himself(s), plucked out his father's eyeball, and fucked his own mother while she was in mortal mode on New Caprica. Moral of story? You Never Fuck With Pinocchio. Welcome to the last act of the last season of the very best TV show of all time, and here's your Dramamine.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 15, 2009 19:02:42 GMT -5
If the Final Five are just like the other Cylons except for their particular history, that would mean that their spines glow during sex. I guess their partners never noticed. Also, I guess that the skinjob Cylons do age over time, since Tigh has.
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Post by Squeemonster on Feb 15, 2009 19:25:11 GMT -5
Couple of LJ links that are helping me sort through all the OMGWTFTMIBBQ!-ness of BSG lately: asta77's take on the info we were given in this ep and daygloparker made a diagram. ;D I need a diagram for this whole freakin' series because my brain has been on scramble-watch since the last half of this season has started. I think best with visuals. Very helpful. Here is the twop recaplet summary by Jacob. If I actually have this straight: Thirteen Tribes set out from Kobol, and the Thirteenth (Cylons) settled on Earth, where they stopped resurrecting and had babies instead. They created robots, I think, who went crazy on them and threw them a big old war just like ours did. Luckily, a group of five scientist-types were able to rediscover resurrection technology, and download themselves into new bodies at the moment of their holocaust. (After being warned by mysterious and invisible Sexy Chip People, no less.) Tory and Galen were the hot young couple, Saul and Ellen were the hot old couple, and Sam was apparently like what if Bob Dylan hung out with Watson and Crick. So they took a sublight voyage backwards along Athena's Arrow, to find the other Tribes and tell them in no uncertain terms, Do Not Fuck With Robots.
Sadly, the robots did not go unfucked with. The F5 got here too late, but forged the Armistice out of promises to help the Centurions create skinjobs. This they did: eight humanoid models, to further the toasters' goal of becoming more like their creators (as seen in the whole Hybrid lineage). Yes, I did say eight models. For a total of thirteen, at the fulcrum point of which is Seven, a model named Daniel that never made it off the production floor (except for the one that knocked up Socrata Thrace, I will bet you one trillion dollars) because Cavil, the firstborn son, was jealous of him in an insane Biblical grabbing-the-foot kinda way. Then he murdered and boxed the F5, and released them every few years into the population until the holocaust was ready to go. Which is where we came in.
The reason that Cavil is such a dick, though, is because he resents the Five, particularly Ellen, for creating him in such an old, creepy body. They seem to agree that the F5 made the human bodies and weird hormonal imbalances we've grown to love in the Significant Seven because the One True God would approve of that -- but then also, the OTG seems to have been invented by the Centurions in the first place, which makes no sense. Even Chief finds that weird, so I'm sure there's more to it. (Like, maybe a whole series coming to your screen fairly soon, with a writing staff including but not limited to Jane, the wonderful fellow who wrote this episode, and Michael Taylor.) So Brother John Cavil gives a fairly moving and convincing speech for why he's so pissed off, and you finally get Cavil: he's basically like Pinocchio going, "Really? Lederhosen? Fuckin' forever?" Only instead of singing a little song about it and kicking Ellen in her shapely Gepetto shins, he knowingly and nastily:
Destroyed utterly the life and civilizations on twelve planets, burnt the knowledge of their creators out of his brothers and sisters, killed Daniel and boxed Three, wiped and boxed the Final Five just to make sure they ended up in the holocaust, had a day-long conversation with Chief about how he wasn't a Cylon even though he totally was, tried his best to kill off the idea of God(s) Himself(s), plucked out his father's eyeball, and fucked his own mother while she was in mortal mode on New Caprica. Moral of story? You Never Fuck With Pinocchio. Welcome to the last act of the last season of the very best TV show of all time, and here's your Dramamine.Oh, this is totally awesome and opened my eyes up even more, all while giggling uncontrollably. ;D Thanks for posting it, Liz!
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Post by Lola m on Feb 15, 2009 19:37:26 GMT -5
Are these new opening credits? Or did I just not notice them last time? Considering how they link up to Ellen, I'm thinking new. In which case, I now think it's important to note that they start with (and thus remind us about) the whole "this has happened before and will happen again" thing. Ellen wakes up in the goo, all aline. Does she know yet that she is a Cylon? I think she does now. The centurion is scared of her? Or worried about interacting with her, because it's just supposed to be there, to wait and/or protectm? Old model that has been left to wait for her maybe, so that no one else learns about her? So, bullet in brain chatter or, you know, mystical final 4 chatter? Maybe both? Like the bullet is letting the other stuff through? "Get the frakkin' brain guy." Heee! Oooooh! He mentioned Ellen!!! Now, will they realize that is important, or not. Holy crap. Cavil!!! Cavil knows about Ellen!!! So, he's been lying about not knowing the rest of the Cylons? Or did he never really say this? (Also, this puts so many more layers of weirdness onto the whole thing with her having unfun sex with him on New Caprica in order to protect Saul . . . ) She named him!! She's, like, the head of them? The creator of them? And her and Cavil don't get along, eh? #smirks# Heh! "He did what he thought was right. That's all any man can do." "He's not a man." "As someone with firsthand knowlege, I beg to differ." Nice!! Human - machine. Depends on your definitions. Twisted history between them. Hmmm. "I need a chief, and all I have is . . . a Galen." **squees in happy happy** Chief is back, rockin the Galactica! "There's too many layers." Oooooh! "I remember everything." **bounces happily** This? Is gonna get hella exciting, isn't it?
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 15, 2009 19:47:14 GMT -5
I'm now wondering why Tory and Anders hooked up right before they heard the song that triggered their realization of who they were. On the other hand Tori and Tyrol being together in their past lives does explain part of why Tori airlocked Cally.Ohhh, I hadn't thought of that. I'm listening to the podcast now, and Ron Moore reminded me that Tory and Tyrol had a brief moment in that episode (when they're in the bar and Cally comes to the wrong (or not wrong) conclusion) where she airlocks Cally and that's supposed to be a clue.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 15, 2009 19:52:04 GMT -5
Are these new opening credits? Or did I just not notice them last time?Considering how they link up to Ellen, I'm thinking new. In which case, I now think it's important to note that they start with (and thus remind us about) the whole "this has happened before and will happen again" thing. Ellen wakes up in the goo, all aline. Does she know yet that she is a Cylon? I think she does now. The centurion is scared of her? Or worried about interacting with her, because it's just supposed to be there, to wait and/or protectm? Old model that has been left to wait for her maybe, so that no one else learns about her? So, bullet in brain chatter or, you know, mystical final 4 chatter? Maybe both? Like the bullet is letting the other stuff through? "Get the frakkin' brain guy." Heee! Oooooh! He mentioned Ellen!!! Now, will they realize that is important, or not. Holy crap. Cavil!!! Cavil knows about Ellen!!! So, he's been lying about not knowing the rest of the Cylons? Or did he never really say this? (Also, this puts so many more layers of weirdness onto the whole thing with her having unfun sex with him on New Caprica in order to protect Saul . . . ) She named him!! She's, like, the head of them? The creator of them? And her and Cavil don't get along, eh? #smirks# Heh! "He did what he thought was right. That's all any man can do." "He's not a man." "As someone with firsthand knowlege, I beg to differ." Nice!! Human - machine. Depends on your definitions. Twisted history between them. Hmmm. "I need a chief, and all I have is . . . a Galen." **squees in happy happy** Chief is back, rockin the Galactica! "There's too many layers." Oooooh! "I remember everything." **bounces happily** This? Is gonna get hella exciting, isn't it? It's a new opening. In the podcast, Ron Moore says that it's a special opening just for this episode to set it apart from the rest because of the info dump.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 15, 2009 20:05:14 GMT -5
Yes!!!!! Yes, she is the creator (or at least programmer, in some way) of the skin jobs!!! Because she wrote sleep into their software!!!!!!! No sleep for 20 years? No wonder he's such a messed-up cranky bastard. Excellent questions, Ellen! Why are "human" ideas like vengence and murder the ones you want and other not? You're not special, Cavil, you're just like the other Cylons (and humans, too), picking and choosing the things you'll hang on to and the things you'll discard. Interesting phrasing. "My forebearers on the Centurion side of the family . . . ". Boomer!!!!! And she looks totally freaked out by Ellen. "He's teaching me to be a better machine. To let go of my human constructs." "What about the swirl? Has he taught you that yet?" This? Is why Ellen rocks, hardcore! Ask her why she made you like this. I'm assuming she programed each of the "personalities" with different aspects and flaws because they were to learn from this, yes? Heeee! Offering her an apple. Yes! ;D "He likes an audience. Someone to nod, when he talks about justice. Watch, Boomer. Make up your own mind." Damn. I've missed her wonderful bitter cynical snarky truths (or at least, sometimes truth. ) We reinvented ressurection. Man! Too. Much. Information!! I'm feeling as overwhelmed as they look!! I like this scene with Roslin and Lee. I like her very human and complicated feelings. "Sometimes I hated them, but I knew every one of them and now I wonder what we are without them." We need a new quorem or something else. Oh! Good idea! We are not the same old planets. She starts stepping aside to let Lee start creating something new. Hmmmm. Right thing and smart thing. She's sort of right about that, but also sort of wrong. Galactica is old, beat up, shortcuts taken originally. So, time to try to fix her, but perhaps also time to look to something new there too? Also - it does indeed turn out to be a damn good thing Galen stopped them from jumping, mutiny or no. More history . . . They ressurected from the nuked Earth and then went to tell the humans to treat the artificial life they had created well. To prevent the whole revolution and destruction thing from happening again. Only it, you know, happened again. Oh! They were traveling not speedy! So, this "feels" like it just happened to them. Ooops. Convulsions. That can't be good.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 15, 2009 20:41:40 GMT -5
"Boxing isn't permanent. Not like number 7." Ooooooooooooh!! "The one true God must have orchestrated these events." Hmmmmmm. Calling Kara Thrace, I'm thinking. The five of us designed you to be as human as possible." So, the final 5 stepped in as the new Centurions were beginning to experiment with skin jobs and specificially created very human ones. To try to prevent the whole melt-down thing? [Also? Man, Cavil really really really hates being human. 'Cuz he hates humans or vice versa? I mean, does he hate himself because he hates humans or hate humans because he hates himself?] The 5 made them human because "God wanted it that way"? Hmmmmm. Also? If he really wants all this different machine-based way of being/feeling, why not take all that energy and science that's being used to defeat humans and instead turn it toward re-making himself to be more machine-y? Eh, Cavil? Why not turn yourself into something more like a Centurion, if you think that is the way to go? Doesn't feel remorse, because he's wrong. (Ha! Love her just being so . . . stick to her guns and all.) Free will. Creativity. Compasision. Love. Well, and this is sort of what I was saying above. If he doesn't like how things are, he could be working to make things more like he wants. But instead he stayed stuck in his hating human trap. Choices! Decisions! "Who would I want to love?" And edit cut right to Galen. Nice! "The Centurions couldn't built skin jobs so we showed them how, then gave them ressurection. It all traces back to us." "No, no, no. He said that we ended the first Cylon war. We bought time for humanity." I think he said both. And more. But yay for me, 'cuz this nice little summary means I was actually following along with most of this! "The humans on Kobol made us." And thus the whole circle of everything going round and round thing, yes? "You point a finger back far enough and some germ gets blamed for splitting in two." Ha!! Good one, Tigh. ;D "We share the guilt with the humans, but we don't get to just shove it off onto them." Oh, even better one, Tigh! OMG OMG OMG!! Brain doctor is John Hodgman?!?! !! Too too too funny!!! PC! Brain doctor!! And he's all perky and "the seizure was a good thing" and "course, if it happens again, death within minutes". "So take out the frakkin' bullet!" "Yes!" **continues being Mr. Perky** What a dilemna. But, he is competent, yes? I mean compromised but not incapable? And yet, he is affected, so they can't be sure the injury isn't making him say what he might not otherwise. Damn! I can see why she says the surgery must happen . . . And frankly, dude, if you die because of another seizure, that ends the remembering for sure while the surgery might just fix you and not affect the memories, so . . . Cavil wants her to help "rebuild" resurrection, I'm thinking. "Good luck with that." "They destroyed the Hub, but they don't know about the colony. All your equipment is still there." Aha! We knew there was more to this! Is she lying? Does it need all of them? Anders' memories do seem to indicate that all of them played a part, like Galen's work being amazing and important to things and so on. And of course Cavil says if she doesn't give it to him, he'll just go digging around in her brain to get it.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 15, 2009 20:59:03 GMT -5
Ah. So Cavil was the first one made and he helped with the others. So, that's why he knows about Ellen and the others don't.
Heee! I love Chief. "So. We didn't . . . think this was a . . . bad idea? Building Cylons after we'd already seen the cycle?"
Ooooh! "The Centurions had a single loving God. Ellen said it changed everything. If the Cylons embraced love and mercy then the cycle of violence could end." Only, not so much, huh?
Ah! And of course it was Cavil who wrecked it and killed them all. Boxed them and then put in fake memories and turned them loose. But why? Why not just, well, get rid of them all?
Kara was so interested in the 7th one, the Daniel because she is still worried she is a Cylon too, yes? Because of finding her dead body and all?
Stay with the fleet, it's all starting to happen, miracle and angels. Damn! Lots and lots of mystic stuff!
No booze in the Tigh household and the baby is movin'. But Tigh is thinking about Ellen again, too.
Ah! There's the why not just kill them. (And super yay for the show addressing the question). And yeah, he is a sadist. Oh! Oh! She's got it!! Yes, he didn't want them dead. He wanted them to say "yes, you're right Cavil". Approval from mommy and daddy!
"I know what you did to Daniel." "If I'm such a mistake . . " Who made him? But he's not a mistake, he could be good. Yeah. I knew that wasn't going to work on him.
On the other hand, she might be getting to Boomer.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 15, 2009 21:10:22 GMT -5
Looking for damage "deeper in". It's in her bones, bones rotten. Like Roslin? So, just like that idea of the Galactica being the dying leader? Yes. "I need to be something." Kara is, understandably, still very much wondering about herself. The Tigh's may not have booze, but Adama does. Oh, ouch. The ship is really falling apart. Heeee! "You should have brought a tumbril. Never mind." Ha! Doc Cottle lights up right away. "Forgiving you." Yes!! **does dorky arm pump** Boomer did help Ellen!! So, does that mean Ellen and Boomer will each end up reunited? With Tigh and Chief? "Think they're hoping for a musical." ;D Oh no! Virtually no brain activity. "Do whatever you have to do to save our girl." Ah. So seeing it in his quarters brought it home to him. Whew!!! Big ep! And it was virtually all exposition / explanation. Done with enough stuff happening to make it not just talking heads, but still. One. Hell. Of. A. Lot. Of. Information!
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Post by Lola m on Feb 15, 2009 21:11:07 GMT -5
Ellen made Cavill? In her father's image? Wow. My brain is seriously frakked, now. Seriously! Dude!
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Post by Lola m on Feb 15, 2009 21:21:35 GMT -5
ABOUT FREAKING TIME! (that they recognized that they are ships rather than colonies) Hell, yeah!
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