Surprise Discussion

[William the Bloody]

Let the discussion begin!

[Spaced Out Looney]

Angel’s choice here is both wrong and understandable, both reprehensible and forgivable. He’s motivated by lust, but he’s also lonely and genuinely in love for the first time in his existence. Still, he knows better – he is worldly-wise and he’s so far from innocent he could make Madonna look touched for the very first time. His belated "maybe we shouldn’t" reveals the fact that he is aware of the impropriety. But his flesh is weak. He doesn’t act purely out of love, or he would have sent Buffy home to mother. He gives in to lust and desperate desire.

I wanted to point out that Buffy and Angel were supposed to recon at the factory, then return to the gang and give them the update. Instead, they went back to Angel's apartment afterwards, and not only had sex, but fell asleep afterwards. And the gang was really worried about what happened to them at the beginning of Innocence.So there's some commentary here about abandoning responsibility, I think.

[SpringSummers]

Spaced said:

I wanted to point out that Buffy and Angel were supposed to recon at the factory, then return to the gang and give them the update. Instead, they went back to Angel's apartment afterwards, and not only had sex, but fell asleep afterwards. And the gang was really worried about what happened to them at the beginning of Innocence.So there's some commentary here about abandoning responsibility, I think.

Yes- good point - I hadn't given that much thought, but I agree that it's a significant aspect. The writers really pick up and run with that idea of the abandoment of responsibility when they get to I Only Have Eyes For You.

With Buffy & Angel, we get this highly idealized surface presentation of the things that are right between them, with tons of under the surface indications of what's wrong - culminating in Angel losing his soul as a result of the relationship.

With Buffy & Spike, we get this very demonized surface presentation of the things that are wrong between them, with tons of under the surface indications of what's right - culminating with Spike gaining his soul as a result of the relationship.

It's all good and very much about growing up. I love this show.

[Odon]

There's a line in this episode that really leapt out at me. Angel and Buffy are about to have sex and Angel says, "I love you. I try not to, but I can't stop."

Now remember the alley scene in "Dead Things"?

Spike: I love you.
Buffy: (upset) No, you don't!
Spike: You think I haven't tried not to?
(Buffy punches Spike clear across the alley)
Buffy: Try harder!

Puts a whole new spin on why Buffy reacted the way she did. She's clearly terrified of history repeating itself.

[SpringSummers]

Jan 24, 2012 9:31:13 GMT -5 @Odon said:

There's a line in this episode that really leapt out at me. Angel and Buffy are about to have sex and Angel says, "I love you. I try not to, but I can't stop."

Now remember the alley scene in "Dead Things"?

Spike: I love you.
Buffy: (upset) No, you don't!
Spike: You think I haven't tried not to?
(Buffy punches Spike clear across the alley)
Buffy: Try harder!

Puts a whole new spin on why Buffy reacted the way she did. She's clearly terrified of history repeating itself.

Nice catch.

Yep, Buffy closes her heart off after Angel. And we see it here in the parallel words . . . but completely opposite reactions from Buffy, to those words.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.