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Post by Sue on Mar 14, 2009 8:30:00 GMT -5
I can't believe it didn't strike me before, but where did this implanted personality come from? I mean, I don't believe they just happened to have a copy of someone who was a fervently religious blind woman who had a vision of this cult guy telling her to hitchhike to him just lying around on their shelves. Which means, they had to create at least some of her. Which is, like whoa! Good question. Maybe they just had the religious cult personality---after all, they are the ones who made her blind by installing the eye-cameras. Of course, then they had to add in the memory that she'd gone blind at age 9: so that would be a combination of 2 imprints. Weak plot point to me is how one slap in the head could efficiently dislodge the surgically implanted cameras in both eyes and return perfect vision with no other side effects. So at the end had Claire removed the eye cameras, one assumes.
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Post by Sue on Mar 14, 2009 9:12:20 GMT -5
In the previous thread Anne said something about knowing the set-up of the show and not needing to be hit over the head with it at the beginning of each show.
I'm not sure exactly what she was referring to (did they have a scene going back over the info?) but it came to mind last night as the parallels between the cult and the Dollhouse became glaringly obvious.
But it occurs to me that one idea we are meant to take away from these repeated parallels is that while the set-up of the Dollhouse is reprehensible and OVERT, situations where the one human has (reprehensible) control over another are, if less overt, far more common than perhaps we are aware of.
Much was made in the early interviews, before anything aired, about the dolls being used/owned/controlled and I think the parallels we are seeing are very deliberate. I believe there is more to be discovered and said about this .... it's just not all that clear in my mind yet.
Also: wondering what the big reveal is going to be about Ballard smitten neighbor. It would be silly to make her also be an active, now that the Russian informant guy has been revealed to be one. It seems like there must be some mystery about her---otherwise why bother having that role.
But, just maybe, that's the jossian element: she's the totally normal neighbor with a crush on a cute guy who is hiding absolutely nothing----while we are all busy trying to figure out the mystery.
Quite a preview for next week.
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Post by leftylady on Mar 14, 2009 14:21:55 GMT -5
In the previous thread Anne said something about knowing the set-up of the show and not needing to be hit over the head with it at the beginning of each show. I'm not sure exactly what she was referring to (did they have a scene going back over the info?) but it came to mind last night as the parallels between the cult and the Dollhouse became glaringly obvious. But it occurs to me that one idea we are meant to take away from these repeated parallels is that while the set-up of the Dollhouse is reprehensible and OVERT, situations where the one human has (reprehensible) control over another are, if less overt, far more common than perhaps we are aware of. Much was made in the early interviews, before anything aired, about the dolls being used/owned/controlled and I think the parallels we are seeing are very deliberate. I believe there is more to be discovered and said about this .... it's just not all that clear in my mind yet. Also: wondering what the big reveal is going to be about Ballard smitten neighbor. It would be silly to make her also be an active, now that the Russian informant guy has been revealed to be one. It seems like there must be some mystery about her---otherwise why bother having that role. But, just maybe, that's the jossian element: she's the totally normal neighbor with a crush on a cute guy who is hiding absolutely nothing----while we are all busy trying to figure out the mystery. Quite a preview for next week. Yes, the cult description vs dollhouse parallel did seem overly obvious, or are we just so tuned in to looking for Joss' metaphors? I'm also wondering aoubt the neighbor. Maybe real people can be doll-like too? leftylady
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Post by leftylady on Mar 14, 2009 14:56:48 GMT -5
Oh crap. Are they gonna torch the place? Yes. Yes of course they are. Waiting for a miracle. "Lose your faith and you will perish." Oh, yeah, the whole "only the unrighteous are in trouble" crap. Oh I like the parallel of the icky cult criminal guy and the "ends justify the means" ATF guy. Each doing what they want, no matter who they hurt. And each with a second in command that is starting to question what the hell is up with their leader. "You can't force a miracle." "That message is move your ass!" ;D Now a very intriguing question - how much of that was the imprinted character and how much might have been Echo? Because unlike last week, she wasn't thrown out of her imprint. And damn. Security man saves with one nicely timed hail of bullets and then ruins it all by a vicious smack to knock her out. He really hates the dolls, doesn't he? Or really hates Echo. Or both. Ok, I'm glad someone else mentioned this. My reaction was - this is not Esther, this is Faith. Maybe it was to suggest a return imprint in Echo (not just a character return to 2 shows ago for Eliza? ), but my immediate reaction was slippage in directing/acting. I hope your reaction is what they intended. This episode was so better at breaking the "I'm still looking at Faith" feeling I keep getting when so many of the roles imprinted this far in the series are either so similar to Faith or they keep dressing her up as Faith. Esther was a real different character and I know that Joss in an early interview said something about wanting to show off ED's acting range. Let's hope so. leftylady
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Post by Michelle on Mar 14, 2009 15:11:31 GMT -5
Looks like the local town people don't like these folks, eh. Ooooooh. A hidden "save me" note. Talking about people who've had their wills taken away. And at least he admits that it is "ironic" to use an active to get into this group. And this is not quite the government itself hiring them, but it does show that some folks in the government know about the Dollhouse. This Senator knows about them. If she were anymore relaxed, she'd be ooze. Oh, that's right! This is the "real world scarily close to SciFi" eye camera thing!! Also, since they don't know if this could kill her? Definitely puts a different slant on the idea that the actives are volunteers. Oooooh! Another mention of human trafficing! Boyd is "embedded at the highest level". So, who amongst the various ATF people know about the actives? Any of them? Or just the Senator? Just a girl - Buffy shout out! ;D "What, did she escape from a cult?" "No. She didn't escape from anything." Well. That's honest. 'Cuz she is still in the Dollhouse, isn't she?
"I'm a girl? Wow! I've been blind longer than I thought!" Heeee! Is anyone else particularly struck by the image of all the people walking away in the credits? For some reason that is just really haunting to me. I thought the choice of the words "Save Me" was interesting because it could be so easily misinterpreted--because this being a religious cult, a common theme is being saved. Saved from sin, saved from the fires of hell, etc. So why did the ATF guy choose that phrase instead of the more obvious (to me) "Help Me" or the more specific "Get me out of this freaking cult!" Oh see, I didn't think of that as a reference to Echo, I thought it referred to the original Esther. You're absolutely right, of course!
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Post by Michelle on Mar 14, 2009 15:15:33 GMT -5
Heh! I love how FBI guy is all "what did he look like" and she figures out it was the mail guy. ;D Heeeeeee! Watching the shower photos. ;D "Of course! If it'd been a snake . . . Pretend I didn't say that." ATF guy is not happy with Boyd. "No. You know him." And of course security guy at the house first blames Echo and then says he doesn't want Echo gotten out safely. Ah. The unique vision of Esther that can see things others can't. Nice pun / parallel! Her "vision" of him, the fact that her eyes are "seeing" what the ATF couldn't see without her. And of course they set off a trip wire! **grabs his hand** "It's a miracle. I can see." "We're blind." Yes! This is what I love Joss for! The edit jump cut with dialog, the arm grab. That was great, wasn't it?? I tittered like a school girl. When Brian Bloom (cult leader guy) hit Esther the second time, I half-expected her to go blind again, or have a seizure, or something. Luckily that didn't happen. I thought Brian Bloom did a great job playing charismatic scary guy.
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Post by Michelle on Mar 14, 2009 15:23:46 GMT -5
Oh crap. Are they gonna torch the place? Yes. Yes of course they are. Waiting for a miracle. "Lose your faith and you will perish." Oh, yeah, the whole "only the unrighteous are in trouble" crap. Oh I like the parallel of the icky cult criminal guy and the "ends justify the means" ATF guy. Each doing what they want, no matter who they hurt. And each with a second in command that is starting to question what the hell is up with their leader. "You can't force a miracle." "That message is move your ass!" ;D Now a very intriguing question - how much of that was the imprinted character and how much might have been Echo? Because unlike last week, she wasn't thrown out of her imprint.
And damn. Security man saves with one nicely timed hail of bullets and then ruins it all by a vicious smack to knock her out. He really hates the dolls, doesn't he? Or really hates Echo. Or both. I am wondering if the swearing here and the FBI lady's comment that Caroline on the video has a potty mouth was a clue that the original personality, and not Echo, is seeping through. Or is that what you meant?
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Post by Michelle on Mar 14, 2009 15:26:39 GMT -5
In the previous thread Anne said something about knowing the set-up of the show and not needing to be hit over the head with it at the beginning of each show. I'm not sure exactly what she was referring to (did they have a scene going back over the info?) but it came to mind last night as the parallels between the cult and the Dollhouse became glaringly obvious. But it occurs to me that one idea we are meant to take away from these repeated parallels is that while the set-up of the Dollhouse is reprehensible and OVERT, situations where the one human has (reprehensible) control over another are, if less overt, far more common than perhaps we are aware of. Much was made in the early interviews, before anything aired, about the dolls being used/owned/controlled and I think the parallels we are seeing are very deliberate. I believe there is more to be discovered and said about this .... it's just not all that clear in my mind yet. Also: wondering what the big reveal is going to be about Ballard smitten neighbor. It would be silly to make her also be an active, now that the Russian informant guy has been revealed to be one. It seems like there must be some mystery about her---otherwise why bother having that role. But, just maybe, that's the jossian element: she's the totally normal neighbor with a crush on a cute guy who is hiding absolutely nothing----while we are all busy trying to figure out the mystery. Quite a preview for next week. Yes, the cult description vs dollhouse parallel did seem overly obvious, or are we just so tuned in to looking for Joss' metaphors? I'm also wondering aoubt the neighbor. Maybe real people can be doll-like too? leftylady I'm wondering if the neighbor is another former active like Alpha. She's probably the one who is getting the video and pictures of Caroline to Ballard.
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Post by KMInfinity on Mar 14, 2009 17:41:25 GMT -5
Again with the parallels. Head woman doesn't want anything disturbing the "innocence" of the wiped. Temptation will spread like cancer. Hmmmmm. Sound like icky cult guy just a bit, hmmmmm? Victor must be "scrubbed". Ew!!! How is scrubbed different from being wiped? Wiping is the erasure of the imprint, scrubbing eliminates the "downtime doll" personality? And another mention of the Attic. And no one reads the doctor's reports?
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Post by KMInfinity on Mar 14, 2009 17:51:08 GMT -5
..but it came to mind last night as the parallels between the cult and the Dollhouse became glaringly obvious. But it occurs to me that one idea we are meant to take away from these repeated parallels is that while the set-up of the Dollhouse is reprehensible and OVERT, situations where the one human has (reprehensible) control over another are, if less overt, far more common than perhaps we are aware of. I agree - at first I also saw the thematic parallels as being too obvious, too in-our-faces. What are we dumb? But now it's starting to feel different...still not subtle, but because it's such an omnipresent example of the human condition we've tuned it out somehow. We just don't notice it because it's everywhere. And Joss is showing us that. Excellent twist. None! This is where Eliza says we'll see a significant uptick in the storytelling. Hope an audience is ready to build form here. There are fandoms that are making a big push to promote this episode I hear...
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Post by KMInfinity on Mar 14, 2009 18:15:43 GMT -5
I am wondering if the swearing here and the FBI lady's comment that Caroline on the video has a potty mouth was a clue that the original personality, and not Echo, is seeping through. Or is that what you meant? I didn't take it as accidental Faith-breakout, I took it as evidence that Carolyn is leaking through and it's she who is providing that "adaptability" security guy dislikes. It connected with me as part of the all-people-are-doll-like theme too, as lefty lady said. It made me think how, at school, my students probably see me in a fairly one-dimensional way. The teachers in my school are by no means "straitlaced or reserved" with our kids but we still joke that they think we're hung on a hook after school and brought out in the morning. I never never have slipped and said an even mild profanity such as hell or damn at school, yet I can swear fairly fluently. That's just one example of how, from my perspective, I am not at all doll-like, yet others (my students) may see me that way in some sense. Another thought crossed my mind watching the subplot with Victor and Sierra this episode. The Dollhouse is even more evil than first assumed. It suggests people, even wiped Actives in their dormant state, struggle to be human, to grow, to change. If Victor is indicative, the original personality Victor once had is not only gone, the new "Victor" personality is constantly trying to assert itself into becoming, and apparently will need to be "scrubbed" constantly. So, if Echo, or another Active wandered away from the Dollhouse and started accumulating outside experiences, could that "person" develop into a full new personality, would it remain child-like and unable to assimilate into society, would the original personality finally "break through" or what? I like the idea that a human being would somehow "emerge" if not being actively repressed by the Dollhouse.
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Post by Michelle on Mar 15, 2009 12:24:29 GMT -5
I am wondering if the swearing here and the FBI lady's comment that Caroline on the video has a potty mouth was a clue that the original personality, and not Echo, is seeping through. Or is that what you meant? I didn't take it as accidental Faith-breakout, I took it as evidence that Carolyn is leaking through and it's she who is providing that "adaptability" security guy dislikes. It connected with me as part of the all-people-are-doll-like theme too, as lefty lady said. It made me think how, at school, my students probably see me in a fairly one-dimensional way. The teachers in my school are by no means "straitlaced or reserved" with our kids but we still joke that they think we're hung on a hook after school and brought out in the morning. I never never have slipped and said an even mild profanity such as hell or damn at school, yet I can swear fairly fluently. That's just one example of how, from my perspective, I am not at all doll-like, yet others (my students) may see me that way in some sense. Another thought crossed my mind watching the subplot with Victor and Sierra this episode. The Dollhouse is even more evil than first assumed. It suggests people, even wiped Actives in their dormant state, struggle to be human, to grow, to change. If Victor is indicative, the original personality Victor once had is not only gone, the new "Victor" personality is constantly trying to assert itself into becoming, and apparently will need to be "scrubbed" constantly. So, if Echo, or another Active wandered away from the Dollhouse and started accumulating outside experiences, could that "person" develop into a full new personality, would it remain child-like and unable to assimilate into society, would the original personality finally "break through" or what? I like the idea that a human being would somehow "emerge" if not being actively repressed by the Dollhouse. That's a great example! I find the wearing-of-different-masks most obvious when watching a show like say, Top Chef. The contestant on the chopping block is in front of the judge, respectfully silent and shame-faced, both apologetic and scared. Then they cut to the same contestant facing the camera and s/he's swearing like a longshoreman, full of bravado and piss and vinegar. How can these be the same person? But they are.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 15, 2009 21:51:38 GMT -5
I can't believe it didn't strike me before, but where did this implanted personality come from? I mean, I don't believe they just happened to have a copy of someone who was a fervently religious blind woman who had a vision of this cult guy telling her to hitchhike to him just lying around on their shelves. Which means, they had to create at least some of her. Which is, like whoa! Good question. Maybe they just had the religious cult personality---after all, they are the ones who made her blind by installing the eye-cameras. Of course, then they had to add in the memory that she'd gone blind at age 9: so that would be a combination of 2 imprints. **nods** And we've already seen that putting in layers of personality is possibly a contributor to the "remembering" issues that apparently Alpha and now Echo are having. Yeah, that was . . . well, stretching it a bit seems almost an understatement. I'd assume so too, if only because they wouldn't want her filming all the stuff going on at the Dollhouse.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 15, 2009 21:56:27 GMT -5
In the previous thread Anne said something about knowing the set-up of the show and not needing to be hit over the head with it at the beginning of each show. I'm not sure exactly what she was referring to (did they have a scene going back over the info?) but it came to mind last night as the parallels between the cult and the Dollhouse became glaringly obvious. But it occurs to me that one idea we are meant to take away from these repeated parallels is that while the set-up of the Dollhouse is reprehensible and OVERT, situations where the one human has (reprehensible) control over another are, if less overt, far more common than perhaps we are aware of. I like this idea, because it would be a very Joss-like thing to do to have the layers not only reflect inward to the show, but also outward. That ultimately we're being directed toward not only the situation created here - the Dollhouse - but to look at all of the rest of the world with a new eye. I can definitely see this.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 15, 2009 21:57:37 GMT -5
Oh crap. Are they gonna torch the place? Yes. Yes of course they are. Waiting for a miracle. "Lose your faith and you will perish." Oh, yeah, the whole "only the unrighteous are in trouble" crap. Oh I like the parallel of the icky cult criminal guy and the "ends justify the means" ATF guy. Each doing what they want, no matter who they hurt. And each with a second in command that is starting to question what the hell is up with their leader. "You can't force a miracle." "That message is move your ass!" ;D Now a very intriguing question - how much of that was the imprinted character and how much might have been Echo? Because unlike last week, she wasn't thrown out of her imprint. And damn. Security man saves with one nicely timed hail of bullets and then ruins it all by a vicious smack to knock her out. He really hates the dolls, doesn't he? Or really hates Echo. Or both. Ok, I'm glad someone else mentioned this. My reaction was - this is not Esther, this is Faith. Maybe it was to suggest a return imprint in Echo (not just a character return to 2 shows ago for Eliza? ), but my immediate reaction was slippage in directing/acting. I hope your reaction is what they intended. This episode was so better at breaking the "I'm still looking at Faith" feeling I keep getting when so many of the roles imprinted this far in the series are either so similar to Faith or they keep dressing her up as Faith. Esther was a real different character and I know that Joss in an early interview said something about wanting to show off ED's acting range. Let's hope so. leftylady Esther was definitely a very different character from Faith - indeed!
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