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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Jul 25, 2007 1:58:39 GMT -5
The whole resurrection of Harry confused me terribly. Did he just not die? Did only the horcrux die?
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 25, 2007 7:46:16 GMT -5
End of Book SpoilersI loved the book. Doing a list like Sara's~ Stuff I loved - The battle scenes, especially the battle of Hogwarts. JKR had a nice touch with pacing, events, individual closeups - overall excellent talent at writing epic scenes.
- The scene where Harry hooks up with Neville, and he discovers how valiant they've all been, and how they wanted so much to support him - made me teary. For a bit I feared JKR was going to veer in a different direction. I didn't want Harry to go it alone anymore and be the "lone ranger" type hero. So I was really happy when Harry accepted the whole "rallying 'round" thing.
- The really intricate plotting with the Elder wand issues.
- The bond between our trio.
- Dobby's role.
- Snape's redemption. (I knew he wasn't evil-evil.)
- I know it was a little didactic, but I loved the King's Cross chapter, with Dumbledore explaining everything. I especially liked his comment when Harry asked if this was all in his head. "Of course it is happening in your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean it isn't real?"
- Lots more stuff I can't think of at the moment.
Stuff I didn't like so much - I didn't like the epilogue at all. It rattled on like some bad Lifetime movie cliche. The only thing that rang true was Harry's moment with Albus worrying about being a Slytherin.
- I was a bit unnerved with the times Harry and Ginny and Ron used magic on innocent bystanders to achieve a goal. The breakin at Gringotts stands out.
- I know it would have been difficult, but I'd have liked JKR to have given us more about James, Lily, Snape, etc. I'm thinking James may have been a jerk.
- I never quite bought into the Death Eaters' loyalty to Voldemort. I think JKR needed to justify that whole movement better. At Wolfram and Hart, evil worked together in pursuit of profit. Voldmort seemed so recklessly rotten to his supporters I couldn't believe in their behavior much. Especially the Malfoys.
[/color] [/li][li]I could like a different title better. The Deathly Hallows were a bit a misdirection in fact.[/li][/ul] I don't quite understand the events the the chapter The Forest Again. Harry sacrificed himself. Voldemort killed him, and Harry didn't even defend himself. "Harry as Horcrux" died - killing another part of Voldmort's soul. Did Harry actually die, then resurrect? How did this happen? Or did the Horcrux part die only, or did something else happen I don't understand? If I reread all of them in order, closer together in time, I'm wondering if I'll note minor inconsistencies and plotting problems or if I'll be amazed at the foreshadowing and coherence of the whole tapestry of the story.[/quote] I think the Death Eaters were driven by two things. 1) Voldemort's pure-blood initiative, and 2) power, ie they wanted to gain power by aligning themselves with some one powerful.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 25, 2007 7:50:05 GMT -5
The whole resurrection of Harry confused me terribly. Did he just not die? Did only the horcrux die? I think that the only way that Harry could get rid of the horcrux in himself was if he willingly sacrificed himself to Voldemort (ref. Dumbledore deliberately misdirecting Snape about preparing Harry to die, knowing that that bit of information wold get back to Harry). That's how the spell was broken, as it were.
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Post by KMInfinity on Jul 25, 2007 8:16:14 GMT -5
The whole resurrection of Harry confused me terribly. Did he just not die? Did only the horcrux die? I think that the only way that Harry could get rid of the horcrux in himself was if he willingly sacrificed himself to Voldemort (ref. Dumbledore deliberately misdirecting Snape about preparing Harry to die, knowing that that bit of information wold get back to Harry). That's how the spell was broken, as it were. So Harry didn't really die. His self sacrifice resulting in the death curse only working on the horcrux. Am I getting this?
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 25, 2007 8:21:15 GMT -5
I think that the only way that Harry could get rid of the horcrux in himself was if he willingly sacrificed himself to Voldemort (ref. Dumbledore deliberately misdirecting Snape about preparing Harry to die, knowing that that bit of information wold get back to Harry). That's how the spell was broken, as it were. So Harry didn't really die. His self sacrifice resulting in the death curse only working on the horcrux. Am I getting this? I think so, yeah.
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Post by Pixi on Jul 25, 2007 9:56:18 GMT -5
Here's my initial reaction which I posted in my LJ:
My household was divided with Kiersten liking the happily ever after ending and Hudson and I thinking that the novel was far too busy, the deaths off stage too much and all peripheral characters and the ending a bit of a cop out.
And damn it - you killed the werewolf? That does not make me a happy camper.
Hudson and I had both guessed long ago that Harry was a horcrux. I think he should have died. I think his death would have made this an epic and instead it just kind of felt a bit lacking to me. Also we were both on the page of Snape's ultimate good and hated the fact that his death ended up being a bit anticlimatic. I would have liked him to go out a bit more spectacularly because he deserved it.
Here's what I would have liked to see but didn't see:
The redemption of Draco Malfoy. It felt like there was a story there that was never told.
Less time wandering in the snow with all the accompanying angst and a bit more time spent on the mythology of the Deathly Hollows. For being so important, they felt a bit thrown in there.
Harry's death. I could have done without the Dumbledore explains it all scene. I liked the fact that Dumbledore's character became a bit less saintly. I did want him to have been manipulating Harry's ultimate death all along. (maybe I'm evil) It just felt like all the sacrifices, everything would have had more meaning. I wanted Harry to in the end, be worth everything that was done.
Voldemort as less of a cartoon and more actual evil. I wanted to see more from him in the final confrontation. He became kind of a cartoon character to me in the end.
I wanted an ending like Goblet of Fire. The death there was heartbreaking, the victory full of pain, the ending felt epic to me in that novel.
If she really needed a happily in the future ending, there could have been a child named Harry (Ron and Hermione's child) boarding the Hogwarts express.
Anyway, I sound like I hated it and I didn't by no means. I enjoyed visiting HP world again. I just expected more I guess. Maybe I need too many shades of dark in my world and yes, this is after all a series for children. But I think this had the potential to be epic. Harry's thoughts as he was walking to meet Valdemort in the forest had me sobbing. I was crying thinking this is it, this is it. Oh my God and then it felt a bit gotcha to me.
Off to read what everyone else thought now.
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Post by Pixi on Jul 25, 2007 10:05:19 GMT -5
Spoilers for the Whole BookSome random thoughts, tossed off in no particular order... Things I liked/loved: - Lots and lots of Trio time. It made me very, very happy that this book spent so much time on Harry, Hermione and Ron and their amazing friendship.
- Neville, McGonagall, Luna, and Molly Weasley, who rocked hardcore. Especially Neville, proving how true a Gryffindor he really was.
- Snape. I never believed he'd gone dark side on us, and the revelation that the doe guiding Harry had been his Patronus just about killed me.
- Percy, who sucked it up, admitted he'd been an idiot and a prat, and showed up in time to fight the good fight. Another true Gryffindor.
- Dudley shaking Harry's hand. That gesture was just plain cool.
- Narcissa, for placing family over power.
- Dobby and Kreacher. Ultimately they both demonstrated a nobility and humanity several of the humans we met over the series were sorely lacking in (Bellatrix, I'm looking at you).
- Hermione being right about treating house elves with respect. Frankly, I'm curious to see how the next two movies play out now, as they've completely cut out all of Hermione's S.P.E.W. storyline so far.
- Hermione in general, for proving she was indeed the cleverest witch of her age, for doing what was right instead of what was easy in choosing to stay with Harry, for not breaking under Bellatrix's torture, and for being human enough to remain pissed at Ron for a while and keep stubbornly sticking to her Scully-like reliance on facts—'cause without those flaws, she'd have ended up seeming a little too perfect.
- Ron, for coming back. And for finally achieving at least a tablespoon of emotional maturity.
- Harry, for being Harry.
Things I had issues with: - Harry and Ginny. I'm with Liz on this; JKR never really showed us why they were drawn to each other (outside of teenage hormones), let alone any reason they'd end up spending their lives together. Hell, he bonded with Luna on a much more significant level than we ever saw him achieve with Ginny. Plus it strikes me as a bit cliché to have Harry end up not with someone we'd seen fight at his side, but with the girl who, in essence, waited for him back home (not necessarily passively waiting, but waiting nonetheless).
- Remus and Tonks. Their courtship was offstage, their marriage was offstage, the birth of their child was offstage, and they died offstage. So what, exactly, was the point of any of it? Just killing Lupin or Tonks would have been enough; there was no need to directly parallel Harry's past by making a baby an orphan, and I believe seeing one spouse grieving over the other—especially if it had been Remus who died—would have been enough to send Harry up to the Pensieve in and of itself. It struck me as overkill. No pun intended.
- Hedwig's death. She died not trying to help Harry, but because she was stuck in her cage? Yeah, I thought that sucked.
- Loose ends. I needed a better accounting of who survived the final battle. For example, we never find out what happened to Neville's rockin' grandmother, Professor Trelawney, or the injured Lavender after she's saved from Fenrir.
- The entirety of Slytherin taking off. I didn't like that part at all; I can't believe there weren't one or two who were willing to stay and fight with the rest of the school. After all, it is the house that produced Snape and Slughorn, so we know Slytherins can be decent, principled human beings. It just bugged me.
- The epilogue. I'm sorry, but to me it read like a piece of fanfic. I mean, we skip ahead nineteen years to find out... what, how many kids were had and their names? Nothing about any of their chosen professions? No word on what any of their friends (aside from Neville) ended up doing? Myself, I thought the final chapter wrapped things up really well: the trio together, and Harry ready for a little less excitement in his life. To me, that was all the happy ending any of us really needed. The rest could have been left to our imaginations.
(in the interest of full disclosure, I should add that I've been aware of some of the intense online fighting between fans of various pairings, a battle JKR was aware of added more than a little fuel to by saying that those who imagined any pairing other than the ones JKR thought were "obvious" (ie Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny) were a bit "delusional." So part of me can't help but feel she was trying, with that epilogue, to have the final say in that regard when she could have instead easily made all of her fans happy by leaving the character's futures unwritten. Which, if nothing else, demonstrates her complete lack of understanding of how fanfiction really works. )
That's all I've got for now, although I'm sure I'll chime in with other stuff as we go along... RE the things you liked. I did like that moment with Dudley too. RE the things you disliked. I could not agree with you more re Lupin and Tonks. That whole storyline makes me furious. Yea the whole Ginny thing was just . . . . whatever. I really loathed the epilogue. I really do agree with all the things you disliked. It was an okay novel. It did not, to me, in any way come up to the epic level it could have achieved. What are the major reviewers saying about this? Like or dislike?
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Post by Pixi on Jul 25, 2007 13:41:08 GMT -5
Here's more of my thoughts on Voldemort:
I wanted more from Voldemort in this book. Yes, they did make Tom Riddle real and compelling in the past. And I had high hopes when the book opened on a meeting of the "bad guys". But it became just Kill, Kill.
Too cartoony. Valdemort needed to be like Snape. He needed to be the Snape that wasn't. Snape was so full of layers and complexities. A sheer joy as a character. I was deeply invested in Snape and even if he had ultimately been evil, that would have worked for me because Snape was so well written.
Voldemort needed to be the Tom Riddle we'd seen. The pain and tragedy that led to becoming Valdemort needed to be reemphasized. I needed to care that he was chosing so much evil. I needed to understand if he felt pain at pure bloods dying. If he felt betrayal or loneliness or something. He just became this bad guy with a snake. Like someone in an Indianna Jones movie that Indy just flicks the whip and he's gone.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 25, 2007 14:38:46 GMT -5
BTW, there's a spoilery article about JK Rowling and the Potterverse that might interest some people. I put it here.
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Post by Matthew on Jul 26, 2007 6:03:46 GMT -5
*Runs into room, sqee-ing brains out*
Just finished.
*runs around in glorious squee-filled circles*
*collapses to have pottery dreams*
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 26, 2007 7:10:34 GMT -5
*Runs into room, sqee-ing brains out* Just finished. *runs around in glorious squee-filled circles* *collapses to have pottery dreams* Pottery dreams? Oooh, "Potter"y dreams.
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Post by Matthew on Jul 26, 2007 13:35:13 GMT -5
Chapter 32 - 33Snapes death was not shocking to me. I was holding out that he was actually good. I am glad she did that. I loved watching his story unfold in the Pensieve. That was great, his love for Lily was strong. So strong he was willing to help Harry, who I don't think he ever really liked because he reminded him so much of James Potter. Also that Petunia wanted to be a witch. That suprised me. She wrote a letter to Dumbledore. I was shocked at that. I was surprised, too, but it makes such perfect sense with the way Petunia acts.
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Post by Matthew on Jul 26, 2007 13:44:00 GMT -5
I think that the only way that Harry could get rid of the horcrux in himself was if he willingly sacrificed himself to Voldemort (ref. Dumbledore deliberately misdirecting Snape about preparing Harry to die, knowing that that bit of information wold get back to Harry). That's how the spell was broken, as it were. So Harry didn't really die. His self sacrifice resulting in the death curse only working on the horcrux. Am I getting this? And the maternal-love magic that was in his blood and was now a part of Voldemort kept him alive through the curse, protecting the rest of him from it, and left them both unconscious for a while, resulting in the neat semi-didactic scene in King's Cross... with Voldemort the pitiable tattered scrap under the other bench, that Harry wishes he could help.... *shudders* LOVE Dumbledore's last line in that chapter, about it being all in his head... ;D Though this raises the question of whether or not "avra kedavera" would have worked on the other horcuxes, but as Bellatrix said, you gotta mean it: I don't know that Harry's so much able to use the Killing Curse in anything, other, say, than the heat of battle, if then. We're not given any real clear indication of how Molly kills Bellatrix, other than some curse that came in under Bellatrix' arm. Are there instant-killer curses that CAN be blocked? That don't leave the soul of the wielder all torn up like AK does? Sectumsempra, for instance, would have been a useful if horrible weapon, yet we aren't shown any of the hogwartians using it or anything like it against the Death Eaters. Makes me think of the idea that all the magic that directly (not like using it to fling crystal balls around) does harm to another person is dark magic, differing in degree if not kind. *wonders if Rowling will ever clear this up some* And Kreacher is up there with Andrew in the ranks of characters I could NEVER like, but now am fond of beyond all reason.
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Post by Matthew on Jul 26, 2007 13:57:41 GMT -5
Also, something beautiful and terrible: Hermione's actions that make her effectively an orphan. Her utter cleverness and the Bag of Holding.
The creepy-ass way the wedding chapter ended and the way it made my heart race in fear.
The way that the New Wizarding Order seemed so seamless and....workable a transition.
The horrible, amazing chapter in the Malfoy house, with Hermione screaming and Ron going half-insane.
Neville and his matter-of-factness about the rebellion and the need to stand up under torture.
The idea that the Carrows had almost free reign for a year with only Snape to limit them, and him having to keep from destroying his cover. LOVED the fact that he "sent them out into the forbidden forrest with Hagrid." The Carrows would have thought this a delightfully sadistic terror-inducer, if the parties involved had ANY acting abillity at all. Or heck, none, as the forrest itself was still frightening as all get-out, just less so than the castle.
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Post by Rob on Jul 26, 2007 19:07:38 GMT -5
Lots of really interesting thoughts. I finished several days ago, and have actually re-read several favorite sections, so I feel comfortable sharing impressions.
1. First and foremost, I think Rowling delivered a terrific finish. Loads of action, extraordinary character development, especially regarding the big three.
Speaking for myself, I needed a great deal of Ron, Hermione and Harry time, and obviously I wasn't disappointed. The parallels between HP and BtVS have been almost unavoidable in the past...and this installment changed little of that. The individuals are extraordinarily different, yet when functioning as a cohesive unit with the same goal, they will beat you. The trick, of course, is the journeys of the characters themselves getting out of their own way.
Which brings me to my feelings about individuals. Let's start with...
2. Ronald Weasley: No surprise that Ron is my favorite character in the series, since I identified so strongly with Xander. Not the same guy, by any means...but the core issues are remarkably similar. Deep insecurities combined with no earthly idea of how to express them without hurting others. Harry and Hermione knew this on some level, of course...but like every other teenager, they had their own issues to overcome. They never truly understood Ron's specific problems...nor should they, really. They're kids who loved and appreciated Ron as he was.
As we know, it took 6 1/2 novels for that simple fact to finally register properly.
Many who prefer Hermione or Harry to Ron would probably consider it annoyingly overdue...but I have to say that's a little unfair. Putting their own insecurities aside for a moment, Harry and Hermione have been afforded a measure of respect from the start, one who'd achieved a great deal as the The Boy Who Lived, while the other is an indispensible genius. I'm no expert on child psychology, but even I know positive reinforcement does wonders for self-respect. Harry and Hermione have been told they're special and/or brilliant for years. Ron's value is far less quantifiable, to himself and others...so how could it not take him longer to achieve self-respect?
Therefore that 100-page sequence wherein Ron finally finds himself is my favorite section of all the Potter novels. It may not have been a shining moment when the Horcrux in the locket exacerbated Ron's personal weaknesses, but it was completely necessary for him...and its stabbing, along with Harry's well-chosen words after the fact, are Ron's watershed moments.
Sigh. I have to sign off now. Blasted roommates, sharing computers. Where's my wand? ;D
Anyway, I have lots more to say regarding other characters. Hopefully time will permit me to offer more tomorrow.
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