|
Post by SpringSummers on Jul 8, 2006 12:00:04 GMT -5
Good thoughts! I never really noticed the omission of total truthfulness in Buffy's “Giles was the librarian at my high school” speech. Probably because I was so busy being distracted by the main message of "Buffy and Riley together, keeping Giles out of the loop" that I didn't notice the moments that were actually tilted the other direction. And yet it fits so nicely with the other Buffy & Giles moments - when Buffy lets Riley know she's heading out to get Giles back, no matter what his boss wants. Or her realizing just by looking in his eyes that this is Giles, not a real Fyarl demon. I have to wonder what Riley was thinking when he came to Giles' house and Buffy was there. At that point, all he knows is that Giles was her high school librarian, and this, alongside her high emotions indicates she has a pretty intimate relationship with him. Except Riley at this point probably wouldn't have the kind of impure thoughts that I just did. Good observation! It would have meant a lot to her if Riley had sensed something was off about Buffy when Faith inhabited her body. But then again, none of her friends (including Giles) could tell it wasn't her either. What would have really thrown Buffy for a loop was if Spike had been able to see that she wasn't the really real Buffy.Good point. I can imagine something like that happening - if the circumstances under which Spike ran into Faith-in-Buffy had been somewhat different. As they were, I don't think Spike had a chance of realizing that it was really real Buffy, the only Buffy who is really Buffy, because Faith's approach made it impossible for Spike to think about anything but popping like warm champagne, etc. In this ep, Spike does recognize Giles quite quickly. I love that he "speaks Fyarl." He even has a measuring tape while he figuratively measures Giles up.
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 8, 2006 16:46:12 GMT -5
OK, thoughts. Out of order because my notes are out of order. *Ethan: I love Ethan but he never seemed to show up in the episodes that I love. Except Halloween. Halloween was great. He should have showed up more. The last thing we know about him is that he was imprisoned by the Initiative. Hmm... *The Giles/Walsh parenting conversation: I like it because each of their point of views is valid in a way. Also Walsh's "lack of a strong father figure" really refers to Hank, but Giles takes it personally. *Shades of Kafka's Metamorphosis: metaphor for mid-life crisis, except a Faryl Demon instead of a giant bug in this instance. *Scene segues: I love scene segues and there are quite a few good ones in this episode. *Willow's "Vampires don't breathe fire:" I just like that line for some reason. *the "mythtaken" pun: I hate that pun even though everyone else likes it. *Giles/Ethan interaction: Love it. This exchange totally cracks me up. Ethan: Oh, so cross. We used to be friends, Ripper. When did all that fall apart? Giles: About the same time you started to worship chaos. Ethan: Oh, religious intolerance. Sad, that. I mean, just look at the Irish troubles. *FyarlGiles chasing after Walsh: Love it. Also, you can hear James (breaking character, but I don't care) giggling about it as FyarlGiles gets back in the car. *Spike pumping the waitress for information: creeps me out when I realize that Spike's just using the same skills he used to use to seduce his victims. *Spike crashing Giles car: So did Giles get mad about that or was he just grateful that he now had an excuse to buy a better one? And what is the plural of "apocalypse" anyway? Yes - I'm glad you mentioned it - I had noticed the background laughter from Spike when Giles gets back in the car, but I never thought of it as breaking character. I mean - I thought of it as Spike laughing, it made sense to me that Spike would get a laugh out of it. Either way, I love it - I love that whole scene with Spike & Giles in the car. It's just a classic. We never see Spike giggling like that, except for CrazySpike scenes, which are different. And the fight with the Angel puppet in Smile Time, which also seems like breaking character too. But honestly, wouldn't you be cracking up if you were in these scenes? James giggles like that all the time in the interviews I've seen.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Jul 8, 2006 21:30:27 GMT -5
Yes - I'm glad you mentioned it - I had noticed the background laughter from Spike when Giles gets back in the car, but I never thought of it as breaking character. I mean - I thought of it as Spike laughing, it made sense to me that Spike would get a laugh out of it. Either way, I love it - I love that whole scene with Spike & Giles in the car. It's just a classic. We never see Spike giggling like that, except for CrazySpike scenes, which are different. And the fight with the Angel puppet in Smile Time, which also seems like breaking character too. But honestly, wouldn't you be cracking up if you were in these scenes? James giggles like that all the time in the interviews I've seen. I know what you mean - I've heard the "giggle" that is all James and never Spike (unless crazy, as you said), but it just didn't sound all that "giggly" to me. It sounded more "chuckly." Yes, I am sure I would be cracking up, though, as you say. I mean, the closest I've come to being in these scenes is doing OMWF with the S'cubies in Chicago, and I gotta say, I cracked up non-stop. I really can't imagine being an actor in those intense scenes - very funny, very emotional, very sexy . . . I don't think I could separate myself enough. I suppose practice makes perfect. I should see if James wants to practice with me.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jul 8, 2006 22:14:46 GMT -5
Good thoughts! I never really noticed the omission of total truthfulness in Buffy's “Giles was the librarian at my high school” speech. Probably because I was so busy being distracted by the main message of "Buffy and Riley together, keeping Giles out of the loop" that I didn't notice the moments that were actually tilted the other direction. And yet it fits so nicely with the other Buffy & Giles moments - when Buffy lets Riley know she's heading out to get Giles back, no matter what his boss wants. Or her realizing just by looking in his eyes that this is Giles, not a real Fyarl demon. I have to wonder what Riley was thinking when he came to Giles' house and Buffy was there. At that point, all he knows is that Giles was her high school librarian, and this, alongside her high emotions indicates she has a pretty intimate relationship with him. Except Riley at this point probably wouldn't have the kind of impure thoughts that I just did. Good observation! It would have meant a lot to her if Riley had sensed something was off about Buffy when Faith inhabited her body. But then again, none of her friends (including Giles) could tell it wasn't her either. What would have really thrown Buffy for a loop was if Spike had been able to see that she wasn't the really real Buffy. Impure thoughts are good thoughts! ;D ;D Now, the idea about "what if Spike had been able to tell" - that would have been really really intriguing, wouldn't it?
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jul 8, 2006 22:17:17 GMT -5
OK, thoughts. Out of order because my notes are out of order. *Ethan: I love Ethan but he never seemed to show up in the episodes that I love. Except Halloween. Halloween was great. He should have showed up more. The last thing we know about him is that he was imprisoned by the Initiative. Hmm... *The Giles/Walsh parenting conversation: I like it because each of their point of views is valid in a way. Also Walsh's "lack of a strong father figure" really refers to Hank, but Giles takes it personally. *Shades of Kafka's Metamorphosis: metaphor for mid-life crisis, except a Faryl Demon instead of a giant bug in this instance. *Scene segues: I love scene segues and there are quite a few good ones in this episode. *Willow's "Vampires don't breathe fire:" I just like that line for some reason. *the "mythtaken" pun: I hate that pun even though everyone else likes it. *Giles/Ethan interaction: Love it. This exchange totally cracks me up. Ethan: Oh, so cross. We used to be friends, Ripper. When did all that fall apart? Giles: About the same time you started to worship chaos. Ethan: Oh, religious intolerance. Sad, that. I mean, just look at the Irish troubles. *FyarlGiles chasing after Walsh: Love it. Also, you can hear James (breaking character, but I don't care) giggling about it as FyarlGiles gets back in the car. *Spike pumping the waitress for information: creeps me out when I realize that Spike's just using the same skills he used to use to seduce his victims. *Spike crashing Giles car: So did Giles get mad about that or was he just grateful that he now had an excuse to buy a better one? And what is the plural of "apocalypse" anyway? Yes - I'm glad you mentioned it - I had noticed the background laughter from Spike when Giles gets back in the car, but I never thought of it as breaking character. I mean - I thought of it as Spike laughing, it made sense to me that Spike would get a laugh out of it. Either way, I love it - I love that whole scene with Spike & Giles in the car. It's just a classic. So much of my enjoyment comes from ASH's body movement. It's just so "fake movie monster" - with the silly grrrr argghhh hands held up high, and his little waddle. Too too cute and funny. I can see why anyone would simply have to giggle. ;D
|
|
|
Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 9, 2006 10:46:05 GMT -5
So, I rewatched A New Man.
There is not enough Giles. Its a Giles ep, yet I found myself all bored and waiting for more Giles when he weren't on screen. And quite uninterested in Buffy or Riley, except for what they meant for Giles.
Gee, you'd think I was a Giles fan...
Every time I watch <i>A New Man</i> I get the same plot bunny - the episode from Ethan's point of view. He was in town for a reason, he was in that crypt for a reason (not following Giles, he got there before him), and he was doing something that whole day Giles was wandering around. Plus I still say its not proven that Ethan did the demon spell. We only know for sure he de-demoned him.
There's stuff to notice in the clothes. When Giles worked at the Sunnydale High library he usually (or at least very often) wore variations on red and gold, the school colors, as well as the brown tweeds. Now he's at home, he matches the home decor. Green and brown. But he also, once drunk, matches Ethan, both in dark shirts, though Giles wears a t-shirt under his. He's always wearing layers - I've got a film studies book says that's a hint the character is layered. Which works. Ethan on the other hand has just his shirt, open a button more than most people. Anti-layers? But I think he's far to twisty to call wysiwyg.
There's the obvious, the focus on three couples. Buffy/Riley, Willow/Tara and Ethan/Giles. Buffy/Riley is the obvious new man. Giles thinks he's an old man. But there's the whole "new man" image of new masculinity, looking after children and cooking and staying home. Which is one way of describing what he's been doing, except the children are now growing up. Ethan is a new to town man, but Giles calls him old, including him in a "we" that is all about Giles' self image problems. I strongly suspect Ethan doesn't like that at all. Not for himself, and not for Giles. Ripper is so much more fun to be around.
And then there's Buffy and Riley, the fight, the bit about holding back. Willow saying you shouldn't have to pretend to be less than you are. But what else does Giles ever do? He's the superhero stuck in Clark Kent mode, to the point everyone seems to have forgotten there's more to him than that. Except Ethan. Remembers Ripper.
So then Giles wakes up demon shaped. Angry, powerful, vengeful. Nice little mirror Ethan holds up to him.
Beyond that, Ethan tried to warn him about the Initiative, but Giles wasn't listening. Was, in fact, sounding like he admired them.
Ethan gets arrested by the Initiative. Giles wears a shirt, one of Ethan's, but not matching how we've seen him dress ever before. Silver and black. Later at home he's wearing grey. And so, when we cut to the Initiative in the last scene, is Riley. Walking through rooms covered in silver or with grey and silver doors, with bits of black around. Yes, as per usual, I may be reading too much in, but it looks a bit like they're comparing Giles to Riley and the Initiative, saying they're lining up very similar here.
Being a demon for a day should have given Giles some perspective. Without doing anything wrong, he ended up hunted. But did that bother him? Yes, a little. He wasn't sure Ethan was wrong, at the end. He told Buffy so.
He let them take Ethan away, but he told Buffy he wasn't sure he was wrong?
Giles was a Fyarl, which among other things is a footsoldier demon, usually working for other demons. Taking orders, not making plans. Giles compare to Riley again. Different sides, but both with that respect for Order that they allow to rule them. From Ethan's point of view, very big problem. Turns out to be so from other points of view too.
Initiative were upsetting the balance. Between demons and humans, yes. Between Order and Chaos? They tried a total control approach to demons, to the supernatural in general. Put it in a box, bury it, or use it. Order breaking out the big guns and taking charge. Except that doesn't work. Star Wars quoteage - the more you tighten your grasp, the more systems slip through your fingers. Or sociology textbook quoteage about police patrols and the vicious cycle where increased police presence, increased stop and search, leads to decreased public trust and cooperation and therefore the need for more police presence to get ever less done. Or just the way the season ends, total chaos breaking out because total control reached maximum capacity.
Ethan was right.
And Ethan was never heard from again.
|
|
|
Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 9, 2006 11:41:17 GMT -5
I really, really liked how Buffy recognized Giles at the last minute from the majorly annoyed look in his eyes. And later, he fails to recognize her from her eyes when she is in Faith's body. Giles has very distinctive eyes - Green, with a brown bit in one eye. And his eyes stayed the same when he changed, Giles colors. forgot to mention above, but Giles house matches his eyes.
|
|
|
Post by Michelle on Jul 9, 2006 17:35:05 GMT -5
I really, really liked how Buffy recognized Giles at the last minute from the majorly annoyed look in his eyes. And later, he fails to recognize her from her eyes when she is in Faith's body. Giles has very distinctive eyes - Green, with a brown bit in one eye. And his eyes stayed the same when he changed, Giles colors. forgot to mention above, but Giles house matches his eyes. Huh, you're right! I just checked Screencap Paradise.
|
|
|
Post by Michelle on Jul 9, 2006 18:10:30 GMT -5
Every time I watch <i>A New Man</i> I get the same plot bunny - the episode from Ethan's point of view. He was in town for a reason, he was in that crypt for a reason (not following Giles, he got there before him), and he was doing something that whole day Giles was wandering around. Plus I still say its not proven that Ethan did the demon spell. We only know for sure he de-demoned him. I think you're right, he may have been in town for reasons other than demoning up Giles, and that's how he came across the gossip about 314. But Ethan had a few beers, and he does worship Chaos after all, so it's pretty likely he is the culprit. As soon as Giles cum Fyarl demon busts into Ethan's hotel room, Ethan immediately knows who he is and later says (before Giles has spoken a word) "I can't undo you if you kill me!" And later still he says, "It's 'the stay and gloat' that gets me every tiime." So...that's pretty strong circumstantial evidence that Ethan was behind the spell. Neat! Ethan is twisty indeed. Ironic that Willow is giving that advice since she's currently keeping her relationship a secret from her friends. Excellent observation. I would have liked to have seen more of the Ripper side of Giles as well. The next time we get a glimpse of it is when he tortures one of Glory's scabby minions, I believe. And we don't even get to really see that! Which may explain why he soon after this gets a (brief) soft spot for Spike and proposes that he join the good guys. Wow, wow, wow! I think you really hit on a key theme of Season 4. This is wonderful, becca!
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jul 10, 2006 7:15:48 GMT -5
be! As usual, I love reading your insights, especially the (usually new to me) ideas and themes related to colors / clothing, etc. Comparing Riley and Giles; compare and contrast Initiative and Watchers? Especially when provided with a viewpoint from outside both systems - Ethan's viewpoint. Also, I prefer to believe that Ethan either tricked or magic-ed himself out of the Initiative's hands and returned to England. Thus giving an additional explanation for Giles' return there in season 6 and 7.
|
|
|
Post by beccaelizabeth on Jul 10, 2006 11:42:39 GMT -5
be! As usual, I love reading your insights, especially the (usually new to me) ideas and themes related to colors / clothing, etc. Comparing Riley and Giles; compare and contrast Initiative and Watchers? Especially when provided with a viewpoint from outside both systems - Ethan's viewpoint. Also, I prefer to believe that Ethan either tricked or magic-ed himself out of the Initiative's hands and returned to England. Thus giving an additional explanation for Giles' return there in season 6 and 7. Thanksyou Watchers experiment on their people too - drug the Slayer... Ethan escaping is the nice version, yes. I've read several good fics on that theme. But does JW do nice?
|
|